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Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 01:25 pm: | 
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Jose, it was mentioned on Speed about Honda's pit telling the officials that there was oil on the track. That was where I got my info about the redflag situation. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 09:51 pm: |
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The question then would be did Honda tell the AMA before they threw the flag or afterwards?
The way the Road Racing world article presents it, there was only a few seconds between the time the riders passed the start/finish with their hands up to when the Flag was thrown. Once the Flag was thrown they could not undo that, the only thing to do at that point is work to get the bikes back to regrid and re-start the race and check the track to make sure there is no oil anywhere. Had they found it it would have takend 10-15 minutes to clean up, plenty of time for people to work on their bikes.
No oil was found, but this process took just long enough to allow Zemke's Honda to be brought back to the grid, and fixed as rules allow. Coincidence? Probably not, they allowed them enough time to fix it, which apparently was not an unreasonable amount of time. He then went through the field from last place and finished third.
Mike C. did that on his Buell a few years back during a Pro Thunder race. Started last for some reason and went on to win the race. Pretty exciting to watch.
No doubt they benefitted from that situation, but to say the AMA did that on purpose to help the Honda teams is not accurate or fair to the AMA. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 09:38 pm: |
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Here's the Buell press release about VIR
quote:CICCOTTO RIDES HAL’S BUELL FIREBOLT TO FOURTH PLACE AT VIRGINIA INTERNATIONAL RACEWAY
Best Finish of Season for Buell Dealer Team in AMA Formula Xtreme
ALTON, Va -- (Sunday, October 10, 2004) Hal’s Performance Advantage rider Mike Ciccotto rode a Buell XB12R Firebolt to a fourth-place finish in the final AMA Lockhart-Phillips USA Formula Xtreme race of the season at Virginia International Raceway. The race had been rescheduled after heavy rain from a hurricane threatened the area before the originally scheduled dates of Sept. 17-19. The race at VIR was the best finish of the season for the Hal’s team in Formula Xtreme competition, and was the best performance by a Buell rider in the series.
“We’ve had an up-and-down season, but this is a great way to end it,” said Ciccotto, who completed the race despite being limited by injuries suffered in a crash at Road Atlanta on Sept. 4. “I want to thank the Hal’s team and especially crew chief Terry Galagan for working so hard to put a great Buell race bike under me. This is a very competitive class. I think we made real progress over the season, and we have a nice base to build on next year.”
Following the race Ciccotto and Galagan traveled to Charlotte, N.C. to tape a segment for the Speed Channel program “2 Wheel Tuesday” to be aired at a later date.
Ciccotto qualified ninth for the race at VIR. He jumped up to sixth position after the first lap of the 17-lap Formula Xtreme race and ran in fifth position behind American Suzuki rider Jason Pridmore until Pridmore dropped out on lap 10. Ciccotto then battled with Suzuki-mounted Chris “Opie” Caylor for the duration of the race, beating Caylor over the finish line for fourth by just 0.129 second. The race was won by American Honda rider Miguel Duhamel. Valvoline Emgo Suzuki rider Vincent Haskovec was second, followed by HMC Ducati rider Doug Chandler.
Kosco Buell/Innovative Motorcycle Research rider Michael Barnes qualified his Buell Firebolt in 10th position, and moved up to third place after the first lap. He pulled in after noticing a slight oil leak from a broken fitting while running fourth on lap three.
“Racing in Formula Xtreme, against some of the best riders and teams in American professional road racing, was a successful venture for the Hal’s and Kosco dealer teams, and for Buell,” said Erik Buell, chairman and chief technical officer at Buell Motorcycle Company. “Despite missing the first two races of the season, both teams managed to build on their experience from race to race and constantly improve.”
Barnes raced in nine of the 11 Formula Xtreme events during the 2004 AMA Chevrolet Superbike Championship series, had a best finish of sixth place at Brainerd International Raceway and was 13th in season points. Ciccotto raced in eight events and was 15th in season points. Duhamel won the Formula Xtreme title.
AMA Formula Xtreme is a class open to highly modified motorcycles with 600cc four-cylinder engines or larger-displacement V-Twin engines.
To learn more about Buell Motorcycles, visit your local Buell dealer today and experience the pure streetfighter attitude, style and performance only found on board a Buell. For the Buell dealer nearest you, pull into www.buell.com.
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Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 09:51 pm: |
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OH, right, we would have put in the press release that the Suzuki guys had us black flagged... Not a chance, this stuff is for the inside scoop on BWB. And if you don't believe me, ask Rich or Terry. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 01:26 am: |
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Hey,Jose,were you at Laguna to see all of this as someone else we know was??Or is this all taken from media reports,cuz we know how reliable they must be.Kinda getting it 3rd or 4th hand. |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 04:03 am: |
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BTW thanks for the CD of pics Jose. It arrived today. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 06:07 am: |
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Was the bike leaking oil? (Check one)
A) Yes [ ]
B) No [ ]
If the answer is A, then the officials did the right thing. How would you feel if Barnes had stayed out and Opie Caylor or some other rider (maybe Ciccotto) crashed and received serious injuries because of it? Suzuki may have blown the whistle maliciously, but the fact remains that there was a safety issue present.
I want to see Buell succeed as much as most on this site, but not at the expense of someone getting hurt. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 07:17 am: |
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Anony,
I was not in the pits during the VIR race, I was in turn 5, so I did not see the smoke coming off the bike or the black flag.
I have no reason doubt your version of events at VIR.
I just find it interesting how the press release did not mention the Black Flag the AMA displayed, not the fact that some other team alerted the AMA to a problem on the bike. The release makes it sound like he pulled the bike in before he was given a Black Flag. I guess admitting that your bike was given a Black Flag is not good PR so it was "ommited" because it would not make the brand look good.
Jim,
I was not there, I just summarized the report of the event that appeared in the September 2004 Issue of Road Racing World, page 58.
I did not bring up Laguna, Anonymouse did, trying to present it as an example of inconsistent/favoritism in AMA rules enforcement.
Bad example of that, it was a potentially dangerous situation, so they threw the Red Flag, but it was not done specifically or maliciosly to help one team or another. Turns out there was no oil on the track, and it took long enough to get the race started that the teams with problems were able to fix their bikes and regrid, in last place in the case of the bike that caused the red flag, as the rules say.
As opposed to the FACT that the AMA KNOWS the Buells are louder than the rules allow and lets them slide "for the spirit of competition".
I like that the AMA is being inconsistent with this rule, it adds a different sound to the races that a lot of people like to hear and helps to fill up the FX grids with more interesting bikes. |
Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 08:18 am: |
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Jose, no disrespect intended, but I think you're wasting your time discussing this with someone who's not willing to identify themselves.
All that has happened is a matter of record so you end up trading opinions with anon who can't have a lot of confidence in his opinion or he wouldn't hide.
I like a good knockabout discussion as much as the next man (except maybe Blake & Rocket)  but I like to see who I'm up against or there's no contest. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 11:56 am: |
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Well put Grumpy, very well put indeed.
Greg |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 03:16 pm: |
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Innes,
That argument is completely illogical. "Anonymous" is as much a specific identifier as "Mr. Grumpy" or any other handle/userid, and it is his/her words and statements that are relevant, not his/her userid, which if known to you might well provide no more clue to his/her true identity than the "anonymous" moniker.
I'd really rather avoid the injection into this discussion a new turn to personal attack or derisive commentary. If you would like to publish your commentary on anon or me or anyone else please start a separate topic and feel free to do so, but please can we refrain injecting into otherwise motorcycle related threads our own self-important derision of anon or anyone else? The same goes for the cheerleaders of such personal commentary.
In other words, please address comments to the topic/issue, not the participants.
Thank you.
Crusty,
Why no red flag for the Buell? |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 05:37 pm: |
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Mr Grumpy I think I know who it is, that's why I'm wasting my time....
Blake
Why no red flag for the Buell?
That's a good question. A couple of possible answers:
1. As far as I know, no riders raised their hands to warn the AMA of a potential oil problem at VIR. At Laguna, the AMA mistook the raised hands of the two lead riders as "oil/problem on the track" signals and threw the red flag. It turned out to be a false alarm of sorts, because the Honda guys were signaling to their pit crews not to the AMA officials, but in the heat of the moment they decided to throw the flag and check the track out to make sure. At VIR a competing team alerted the AMA officials in the pit/start area and I they determined that the bike should be brought in and checked out instead of stopping the whole race.
2. Barney's oil leak apparently only caused a small amount of smoke to come out at VIR it did not let go big time like Zemke's bike did at Laguna. Zemke pulled off the track it caused so much smoke, had he tried to ride the bike to the pits he would have been in hot water with everybody. Had Barney's bike let go in a big way I'm sure the red flag would have come out if there was any indication that he dropped oil on the track. Barnes was able to ride the bike back to the pits.
3. This last reason is a little frivolous but here goes: Laguna was Laguna, in front of a huge crowd, the race was early in the event schedule, with WSBK there to see how the AMA runs the show, so they probably were aware of that and threw that flag to make their emphasis on safety clear to everyone in attendance. VIR was the Last race event of the year, the Formula Extreme race was the last race of the day, I think at that point after all the troubles they had getting this event off due to the huricane everybody just wanted to go home, maybe?
(Message edited by josé_quiñones on October 19, 2004) |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 07:50 pm: |
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Thanks. Makes sense to me. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 09:58 pm: |
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Here is the report on the www.speedtv.com website of that Laguna Seca FX race. |
Wyckedflesh
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 10:03 pm: |
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Interesting Jose, that report is saying there was oil down on the track...so here is the question...was there or was there not oil on the track? |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 07:15 am: |
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Turns out there was none, but the AMA did not know that when they threw the flag. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 07:19 am: |
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A red flag that was not thrown and they got away with not throwing was when Mladin jumped the start in that second Superbike Race at VIR. He jumped the start bad, then stopped, the race was started and racers went all around him as he was stopped, could have been another Scott Russell/Daytona situation which could have resulted in a huge accident. |
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