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Jon
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 11:13 pm: | 
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Yeah, be done with this one Aaron. He agreed to an illegitimate deal and cheating didn't work. Now he's looking for another cheap way around...a refund from a non-responsible party.
Next time he calls, light him up with the facts and then tell him not to call you anymore.
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420at145mph
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 11:16 pm: |
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or just do what i suggested
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Phillyblast
| | Posted on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 11:43 pm: |
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Aaron,
On the hypotheticals, and "doing the right thing. . ."
Buddy of mine owns his own auto shop. He developed his customer base for his own place while working for someone else. They had an arrangement - J put in his 8+ hours a day for K, worked hard, did a good job. K couldn't afford to pay J much more than the going rate, but J was/is an exceptional wrench. So he didn't want to lose him. Sooo . . .J lived literally around the corner from the shop, and had a key. He could work on his customer's cars (i.e. not the shop's regulars) after hours and Sundays, if he didn't have any paying customer's cars to finish. J charged a discounted rate, and had a much less upscale clientele, one that ordinarily wouldn't be able to afford the regular hourly prices. but having access to the lift, etc. allowed him to make enough money to be happy, and K kept him as a valued employee for a number of years churning out quality work for the regular paying customers.
All of this was above-board, and up front. If one of J's customers had a problem with the work, they went to J directly (after hours). They never went to K and demanded a refund, or warranty work.
Eventually, J had enough of a base, and sufficient funds, to start his own repair shop. He negotiated with K as to which customers were "his" for marketing, etc. before leaving. K made several overtures to J to keep him, including folding in J's customers, etc. but J really wanted to work for himself. It worked out for both of them. J started his own business with his existing customer base, although they had to then get used to a higher rate, since he now had a mortgage, etc. to pay for on the building, where before he just had "free" use of the facilities, and K kept his existing base of satisfied customers and J broke in the new guy to make sure they continued to be satisfied customers.
Long story short (too late, I know) being up front with folks is the best way to go. And you have no obligation to "make good" on something you didn't know about, done "off the books." Yeah, it sucks being called every name in the book, but it happens. To invoke Court - remind me to tell you about the 10 sec. 300Z my friend built for someone (no nitrous), that the guy blew up in an illegal street race and then tried to sue to recoup the cost of the motor. . . |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 04:40 am: |
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Sine Die |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 08:28 am: |
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embezzlement is unreported income...untaxed income...the IRS frowns on this... |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 08:35 am: |
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But you can have valid oral contracts.
But is it a binding contract? |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 09:24 am: |
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>>>But is it a binding contract?
Yes. See Statute of Frauds.
Light years beyond the scope of this conversation.
Sine Die |
Clydeglide
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 09:48 am: |
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In a civil court, "no papers, no receipts....Means No service"
I thought using this board to air dirty laundry wasn't kosher....
Correct X 2.....But I guess there are exceptions......Hypothetically speaking...of course
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Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 12:50 pm: |
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A verbal contract ain't worth the paper it's written on!
LOL
(feeble attempt at humor, I realize verbal contracts can be much more complex than that)
Aaron... good luck, and I admire you for wanting to do the right thing and seek to resolve the issue. It seems so many now day would "not my problem" it and ignore the entire thing until forced to address the issue.
Once more GOOD LUCK!
BTW... asking for advise and opinions IS NOT airing dirty laundry. It is tapping a resource! |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 02:24 pm: |
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I got called every 4-letter word you can imagine, and even got threatened, when I politely declined his refund request. It was kind of eating at me, I always want to do the right thing, and just needed a little assurance that I hadn't totally lost my mind.
You employed someone that stood as a representative of your company. If he got you in the shite it's your problem. You trusted him. For whatever reason(s) he duped you of $3500 he was still operating with your trust on behalf of your company. Sure you could use the law to avoid a $3000 pay out, but you haven't honoured your company.
In a British District Court you would lose hands down. The consumer is protected by the name above your door. You are, in law, obliged to honour the customer. Your company took his money. The fact that money DID change hands, and you were asked to admit that by the District Judge, would be proof enough your company entered into a contract, even a 'back door' one, and a contract you are aware of that hasn't been provided for by your company. You could lie to the Judge of course Aaron, but you are aware that money changed hands, so your own word is proof enough in a British court to support the plaintiffs case. Your (you) company owes the money - if in Britain.
Ask yourself who's out of pocket, then realize it shouldn't ever be a customer, no matter how dishonourable to you said customer has been. Always take the higher ground. Look to a compromise. Offer customer $3000 of work. If declined pay the $3000 and you can stand tall no matter what. And yes, I do speak from experience. Giving the money back is a proud feeling if for no other reason you've come out squeaky clean. That's why I sent you the hundred and fifty bucks you asked for!
Rocket
edited by rocketman on July 16, 2004 |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 05:27 pm: |
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Rocket,
Some guy you hired in your shop sold me some parts that I didn't get and for which I have no receipt or no record of any kind other than my saying so. I paid him $5,000 and only got $500 worth of parts. Please immediately send me $4,500. |
Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 05:59 pm: |
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Oh oh I see lots of worms coming out of a can here,
Aaron, if you can prove or reasonably suggest collusion between Idiot#1 & Idiot#2, you could probably counter-sue them for fraud, If the threat alone is insufficient.
After all as Napoleon said "The best form of defence is attack."
Rocket, my wife is thinking of divorcing me because I spend so much time on BadWeb, Can I sue Blake as it's creator? |
Pammy
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 08:53 pm: |
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But Blake...if you go back and read Aaron's own post, he WAS made aware of the transaction. And my take on the situation, based on Aaron's own explaination, Aaron is SURE the transaction took place.
Devil's advocate....
Of course Aaron has his own recourse as proof dictates.
If it were me, I would try to placate the customer with some goodwill work/parts. That is all he is entitled to. period. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 10:33 pm: |
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That's exactly what I did.
He accepted and was happy, for awhile. His phone call the other day was because he's changed his mind.
All of my knowledge of the transaction is second hand, and therefore would be considered heresay by a court.
And the two parties have given me two different stories with respect to whether or not the services were provided.
Hell with it. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 12:10 am: |
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Pammy,
From now on, when you order stuff from NHRS, please do it directly through Aaron. 
Blake (duckin' and runnin' and hidin') ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 06:29 am: |
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>>>Hell with it.
Don't major in the minor leagues.
But...may I say that if as a result of this thread that anyone, anywhere in the moto world got cross ways with Aaron and Pammy simultaneously and it could be proven that Blake incited it......well, now we're talking TRUE DANGER. |
Pammy
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 07:57 am: |
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Blake...are you familiar with the expression..."cold day in hell"? I thought you might be...still, that was pretty funny.
All my posts in this thread are a direct result of a 'hypothetical' pot calling a 'hypothetical' kettle black.
"Don't major in the minor leagues."
Oh is somebody having a meltdown?
Court, I can't figure you out. You are one steadfast and loyal individual...I admire that in a person. But didn't your Momma ever tell you that if you bed with dogs, you'll wake up with fleas?
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Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 10:07 am: |
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Those aren't fleas, I'm just doing some ritual mornin' scratchin'. |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 10:38 am: |
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Candor, like medicine, is helpful in the proper dose. Too much can be bad.
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 11:03 am: |
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Rocket, my wife is thinking of divorcing me because I spend so much time on BadWeb, Can I sue Blake as it's creator?
Nope, but she can sue you for desertion!
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 11:29 am: |
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Rocket, Some guy you hired in your shop sold me some parts that I didn't get and for which I have no receipt or no record of any kind other than my saying so. I paid him $5,000 and only got $500 worth of parts. Please immediately send me $4,500.
If a customer entered into my business with a $5000 payment and I'm painfully aware of said customer only receiving $500 worth of whatever for his $5000, in the eyes of a British District Court, my business owes that customer $4500. Fact is, the customer is out of pocket $4500. Proof enough, as in Aaron's scenario, would be my own admittance that the money changed hands. If I was uncertain the money changed hands but my ex employee was to admit to a District Judge it did, even if said employee pocketed the money, a British District Court would have no option but to find in the customers favour because said deal took place under the roof of my business, providing of course no collusion between the two was evident. If however, the money changed hands between the customer and the ex employee in a pub, I'm off the hook.
Incidentally, in Aaron's scenario, the carrying out of any work and giving of parts, no matter how little, is also regarded as proof of liability in a British court. Such giving though would reduce the amount of settlement awarded to the plaintiff.
Rocket
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Pammy
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 01:17 pm: |
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"Candor, like medicine, is helpful in the proper dose. Too much can be bad."
Candor= Honesty and sincerity...I personally, don't think you can have too much.
But if I have caused 'overdose' on this board...please accept my apologies.
Blake, you my friend are too twisted for color TV.
Rocket, you are sharp as a tack.
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Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 03:16 pm: |
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Rocket.. but in this case, the person that took the money indicated they were satisfied that the work was done. With only a verbal contract, how would the UK courts decide if the work done was "enough" or not?
In your above scenario, money did change hands, but work was also done and delivered. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 03:18 pm: |
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Rocket, US law is quite a bit more friendly to the business owners than British law. That is pretty obvious.
Each state here will be slightly different so what applies in Kansas will not apply in exactly the same way in Colorado.
Of course the "customer" has numerous actions they can take including suing. In fact you can sue in US court much easier than British court and can make quite a nuisense of youeself even if you have no case.
I think Aaron has done more than enough to cover himself both legally and ethically.
Dave |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 03:28 pm: |
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Rocket, Some guy you hired in your shop sold me some parts that I didn't get and for which I have no receipt or no record of any kind other than my saying so. I'm claiming with no proof whatsoever that I paid him $5,000 and only got $500 worth of parts. Please immediately send me $4,500.
Pammy,
Me twisted? Nah, I can reach to the ritual scratchin' places with no trouble at all. |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 05:35 pm: |
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>>>>But if I have caused 'overdose' on this board...please accept my apologies.
Not to worry Pammy, none of that comment was directed your direction. You, as well as all of us who have owned business and had things stolen from us, know the paradox of straightening the after-mess out.
Blake is twisted!
Court |
Phillyblast
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 07:43 pm: |
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Blake,
SeanRocketPepper would have to be aware of the transaction (as in a current or former employee has to confirm it or he has physical evidence it transpired) otherwise he doesn't owe you a dime. Should a current employee come forward and confirm the deal, I suspect he/she would be a former employee fairly quickly |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, July 17, 2004 - 08:11 pm: |
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Philly, Blake just likes a good argument. He understands just as well as you do.
In the U.K there's a well know phrase, "customer is king".
Bill, with regard to your point, the District Judge has at his disposal, 'experts'. These are people from all fields that are regarded as 'in the know'. The Judge at his discretion appoints one or more 'experts' to asses the costs involved. the Judge awards according to their findings.
A British District Court is not there to compensate. The courts job is to distribute the the finances involved to the right people. In the case of some settlement \ goodwill already given, it will always be taken into account.
Rocket |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 11:51 am: |
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The same person who pocketed this money also did this:
Note the date & time of the two different pulls, the difference in the temperatures, and the subsequent difference in the results (both of which are pathetic for what this bike had).
I got the bike in on May 1st to tune it's new throttle body, on which the poor December result had apparently been blamed. When the damn thing was down 10hp on it's previous result, I went and researched the history of the project (I hadn't been involved prior) and discovered this. 'Bout blew a gasket. The customer was really pissed when I showed it to him.
The good news is that I eventually found the actual cause of the problem (a mistake made during the build which had happened the previous September), and gave him the bike back with 120hp. He's a happy camper now.
The same person who pulled this stunt is now running another shop. Caveat emptor. |
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