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     Buellfool |
Boring, boring, boring. Just ride. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jima4media |
Bob, Yes Erik - That is Erik with a K is listening. And you are right about Honda spending lots of money on Formula Extreme this year. And they had 3 factory riders in the race at Laguna. Zemke, Duhamel, and Ben Bostrom. Not to mention the support that they give to Erion Honda and Alex Gobert. After Harley's disappointing experience with the VR-1000 in Superbike, I don't think you will see them putting the big bucks into Formula Extreme, the way Honda has. But it sure was nice listening to them out there yesterday. Jim | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Charlieboy6649 |
LOL @ ASSCLOWN COMMENT  What is that anyway? M1 still love you man~ | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Charlieboy6649 |
I do not race... I know nothing of engines... I applaud the Buell dealerships and their excellent efforts this first year... Top ten finishes in this class are nothing to be snickered at. I'm happy as a pig in, well you know... I agree with Rocket, with a little more experience and funding, we'll see some podiums. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| José_quiñones |
This does not really belong here but I'll post it anyway because of an earlier discussion in this thread.
Buell sales were up in 2003 compared to 2002. They sold more Twins in 2003 (7,645) than ever before. They sold more Twins outside the US in 2003. That's what the numbers say. According to the latest Fuell, Buell is expecting to do better than 2003 for this year. Interpret as you wish. edited by josé_quiñones on July 12, 2004 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johncr250 |
I think the Buell Race Teams have done a great job so far this year. But they are running engines that are twice the size of the Jap bikes and they do make competive power. So i really don`t think the buells are handicapped. But if they had more money like the Jap teams i bet they would do even better. There was talk earlier this year about making some rule changes and allowing only up to 1000cc aircooled pushrod motors for next year. A simple rule change like that would elimate Buell`s chances totally. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Daves |
No disrespect intended as they are both faster than any of us but to compare where Ciccotto and Barnes end up to where Duhamel,Bostrom and Zemke end up is silly too. They just aren't as fast as the top riders,on the top(paying) teams. I think they are doing a great job! They still beat a lot of other riders/bikes! Now, if we could just get Rossi for a race or two. Dave | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Benm2 |
You have GOT to be kidding me. I suppose that explains the widespread use of air cooling & two-valve heads on such gas hogs as the toyota prius, honda civic hybrid, etc. Also, what the hell do pushrods have to do with emissions? Even to stay with two valves & air cooling, a simple SOHC setup would raise the top ends rev limit well beyond the point where the bottom end would explode. Don't get me wrong, I think its a great engineering feat to keep making the pushrod engine competetive. Also, the FX team seems to be focusing at least a little on, um, "product development"? Perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part. But pushrods improve emissions? Come on. I wonder where Bostrum would have finished on the Buell. My Sportster Performance Handbook (Buzzelli?) has a nice picture of Ben roadracing a sportster. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Grndskpr |
10th isnt real competitive against 600's and 749's. etc To me 10th is very competative, considering they are a semi privatier team, with smaller trailers than the hooters/attack/HMC teams, i mean these guys run there teams out of a pull behind trailer, give credit where credit is due, this is a true private effort, and they have earned my respect, many times over They are HIGHLY modified 600's. The Buells are highly modified also, actually so modified that i lost track at RA as to what they had done, very impresive effort The Buells have double the cc's & just as much hp...why arent they finishing better? Because they need more money, and more factory support, they need to be an inhouse race team, with the entire factory behind them, while this might ruin the team they have, and the coolness of that team, thats what its going to take to win this is of course my opinion why not come out with a new motor that has a different top end on it Here is a thought that was brought to my attention, if Buells have unlimited ability to modify there engines, could they water cool it??? kinda funny if you think about it I own 3 bikes so even tho the Buell is broke I still manage to get around With a 60k(yes 60,000 miles) Dyna Greg gets around just fine, dont cry for him because his Buell is down, he will do just fine granted they arent pushrod actuated but so what? " ??? Nimrod, you have to understand that's an ignorant statement... Actually not so Dumb if you think about it, some of the teams have produced very high horse motors, some even out do the Hondas at peak HP, however one of the keys to winning if finishing, and being able to ride the machine, just for consideration, some of last years bikes produced 145hp at the rear wheel, dont have a Dyno, and if i did i would not show it, unless i could cut out the dealership who has the bike now, dont care to belive it, thats fine i do, and have seen it, so if that was last years bike, whats this year have??Or better yet what does Honda have?? thanks for the derogatory comments I also think it was uncalled for, if your going to take the good, you have to accept the bad, if you want to produce a better bike, again Greg is only really pointing out what everyone allready knows, but some dont like to hear I don't have a closed mind Dyna... You continuously point out the fact that Buells aren't the cats meow Maybe if you got out on one of the same rides as Greg you would realize there not ment to be derogatory, just, well most of the time factual, again you would have to meet greg to understand his cheese head attitude, or walk a mile in his shoes Another broken record topic!!! %100 correct but fun to see who Dyna is fighting with now, i think i have seen a few of the others change there tune as of late, whats Brucelee been saying?? The Buells are competitive. Just not competitive enough. What's the limiting factor? MONEY Correct as always Read Jose's comments, he is as correct as one can get, like it or not, SEEN anything interesting on the race bikes in the past few weeks, still waiting on a suprise at some point in time My Sportster Performance Handbook (Buzzelli?) has a nice picture of Ben roadracing a sportster. The old 883 class, several other now famous racers came up from that class, that was one of my favorite classes, no matter how limited thats it for now R | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Socoken |
Ben, if DOHC IL4s are so efficient, why is it some (all?) of the big fours IL4s come from the factory with some sort of catalytic converter while Buells do not? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M1combat |
You missed the entire point groundskeeper... I don't have the time or interest in making a long post. I need some Coffee . "granted they arent pushrod actuated but so what? " ??? Nimrod, you have to understand that's an ignorant statement... " Here's the main issue I pointed out though. Dyna was saying that Ducati can be "competitive" on 749cc "so what if they aren't pushrod engines", why can't Buell? That's an ignorant statement and to someone who doesn't understand the limitations of the design that Erik chose to use it would appear that Erik and Co. can't build a race engine so they have to resort to displacement "cheats". Other than that, he was pretty much correct. IMO though, they are actually competitive right now. Just not quite with the factory teams. "again Greg is only really pointing out what everyone allready knows, but some dont like to hear " I disagree. Read the first post by Dyna again. It's lamenting the fact that not only does Buell use 1350cc engines, but they STILL can't win a race. Why? That's derogatory. I wouldn't care in most cases, but it's more what he didn't say (that I know he intelligent enough to understand) that bothers me. Also, I won't be changing my tune any time soon. For the most part I get along quite well with Greg, I have since I registered. THIS issue torques my chain a little though and I'll call it every time I see it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
The whole point is being lost here....yes 10th place is decent, but who wants to settle for decent? Wouldnt you rather have them winning races? And as it stands now with them being 3-4 seconds off the pace of the leading bikes they arent going to win. Buell/HD knows they arent going to win races like this, why continue then? What the hell would be so wrong or evil about going liquid cooling or 4 valve heads or OHC's? If you are going to race you may as well race for the win, nobody cares about those who come in 2nd or worse. And displacement cheats? The 749 v-twin doesnt need displacement increases & what did chandler end up with this weekend? 6th place I think. I understand the entire valve train & higher rpm limits etc etc. Fact is they are doing more with less...cc's anyways. Racing is racing & you do whatever you need to win. if you arent then maybe you are in the wrong sport. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Socoken |
who is settling for decent? this is their first year, and in the race this discussion is based upon, they beat out twice as many 600's as they lost to. in my opinion, thats beyond decent. what do you mean settle? should these guys go out and take podiums at every race in their first year with a fraction of the budget and at a rider disadvantage? you think these guys are going, "damn, 10th, thats decent, lets just chill and try and keep it better than 15th and call it good enough"????? we wont see liquid cooling, not for a long time at least. OHC? maybe distant. four valve heads? probably not anytime soon. these guys are working to develop the engines that we actually have now, whats wrong with that? ESPECIALLY since they are doing "decent" | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reepicheep |
This is all just troll and noise at this point, but again, but I will issue my standard rant. So displacement is all that counts huh? OK, roll your 600cc two stroke up to the line and see what the judges say. Or supercharge your 600cc bike. Or turbo charge it. Or add nitrous. What? Thats all illegal? Why? racing is racing and you do whatever you need to win. Why do the 600cc inline fours get a "displacement advantage" over the two stroke / turbo's / super charged / nitrous machines? The goal of racing is ultimately to entertain the fans. Racing organizations make rules covering virtually every aspect of the machines being raced to try and keep the racing close, and the fans entertained. Displacement is only one of many aspects of engine architecture that determines performance, and one of many aspects of engine architecture that is manipulated to try and keep the racing close. The Buells get twice the displacement. BFD. The 600's get twice the cylinders. BFD. The fourstrokes get twice the displacement of the two strokes. BFD. For Gods sake people, listen to yourselves. If you want an inline four, there are already WAY too many to choose from. If you want a hopped up high tech twin, there are fewer, but still plenty of those to choose from. Why on earth do people keep asking Erik to build an R1 or an RC51, or even a Milli or a 998?!?! Those bikes exist, if thats what you want, just go buy one, they are all fantastic bikes. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
First year?? Cicotto & Barnes have been racing the Firebolts for a couple years now. Just different names for the series. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Benm2 |
Why do you believe these two things are related? The IL4's are mostly run open loop, with no oxygen sensor to tell the fuel injection system whether its running rich or lean. The Buell's got one, which is at least one reason. The ability of an engine to meet emissions specs has to do with many, many, many things, like port shape (like offset ports to introduce more swirl, or tumble), compression ratio, bore:stroke ratio, piston ring design, chamber design, spark plug location, valve material, valve timing, ignition timing, air box volume, throttle body size, exhaust diameter, muffler design, and so on. The main reason that the IL4's need a cat is because the engines were tuned for a different purpose, and for the market they served it was the most cost effective solution. Hey, if you believe that two valve air cooled pushrod engines are superior emissions control devices, that's up to you. The path of history indicates otherwise, as those manufacturers that have an interest in developing vehicles for those SPECIFIC goals don't follow those trends. The fact that the Buell does is admirable, but in no way represents the direction that the other engine manufacturers follow. There are good, real reasons for this. As an example, the corvette & the new dodge hemi are both pushrod engines that need catalysts to meet emissions standards. Are these engines inferior to the Buell design, in that water cooling on an otherwise "identical" engine configuration causes them to need catalysts? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M1combat |
Finally... "Fact is they are doing more with less...cc's anyways. " Here's my point. Why not look at it like this... Ducati is less honorable because they use OHC's and twice as many valves. The japanese bikes are even less honorable because they use twice as many pistons and four times as many valves AND OHC's. _________________________________________________ I don't see either of these bikes as less honorable. YOU however see Buells that way because they use more displacement. That's VERY narrow minded and you continually point it out. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bob_thompson |
As far as Harley not wanting to get into racing I bring up their XR 750's and the new V-rod. Both have been successful. The XR's are a legend in flatrack and the V-rods are already seeing much promise in drag racing. Yes they are highly modified as are all race bikes except bone stock classes. If Harley/Buell wanted to they definately could be winners both on the tracks and in the showroom. However they are already successful selling bikes without the expense of the racing program. I don't even know if they even sponsor XR's or V-rod racers. So, I'll just ride every chance I get and throughly enjoy my M2. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Davefl |
Just different names for the series. and different rules, different competition, etc,etc. These are also not factor teams with factory money. If you take just the factory teams out and leave in the big money non factory teams Buell did extremely well with only three privateers ahead of Cicatto. 1. Bostrom - Factory Honda 2. Duhamel - Factory Honda 3. Zemke - Erion Racing(Might as well be factory Honda) 4. Gobert - Factory Honda 5 Haskovec - Emgo Suzuki 6. Chandler - Ducati Milwaukee 7. Pridmore - Factory Suzuki 8. Pegram - Factory Yamaha 9. Moore - Lion Racing 10. Cicatto - Hals PA Looks like they are doing great to me to even come close to running with the Big Honda money.} | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M1combat |
"As an example, the corvette & the new dodge hemi are both pushrod engines that need catalysts to meet emissions standards. Are these engines inferior to the Buell design, in that water cooling on an otherwise "identical" engine configuration causes them to need catalysts? " These engines have a hood over them and a fascia in front... They also have cylinders that are sandwiched between other cylinders. Big difference. I see your point, but they are too different to compare. The same with the IL4's, they have cylinders that are right next to each other. The center holes get less air cooling so they need water cooling. As far as emissions... Why is it better to go the cheap route and add a cat instead of spending the money to design an ECM that will tune the engine to the point it doesn't need a cat? Doesn't that say a lot about the design mentality between the manufacturers? Also, this "secondary air injection" that a lot of the IL4's use... What's the good of taking perfectly clean air, injecting it into the exhaust just to dirty it up and make the actual exhaust a little cleaner? That says a LOT about the designers. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Curtyd |
Dirt track racing has ALWAYS been my age old complaint with H/D. They have dominated that sport for over 50 years. I know they can build a lightweight, high output racing platform whenever they want. I'd buy a flattracker with lights and turnsignals anytime the make it. It may be what attracted me most about this XBS, it just needs to lose about a 100 lbs or more to make it really FUN. I'll wait and support them, for awhile longer, just to see, via BUELL purchases only, of course. At 50 y/o I still think of myself as too young to actually be seen riding one of those traditional HD's. V-Rod, maybe, but not quite yet... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Spike |
Why on earth do people keep asking Erik to build an R1 or an RC51, or even a Milli or a 998?!?! Those bikes exist, if thats what you want, just go buy one, they are all fantastic bikes. Man, if I had a nickel for everytime I said that statement. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
The same with the IL4's, they have cylinders that are right next to each other. The center holes get less air cooling so they need water cooling. HUH??? I had an inline Katana that was air/oil cooled..very similar to the design Buell uses today & that was back in 90...no water cooling. 84 kawasaki 550LTD inline 4 that was strictly air cooled...no water or oil. That bike is now owned by a friend of mine & is still running. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
Why on earth do people keep asking Erik to build an R1 or an RC51, or even a Milli or a 998?!?! Those bikes exist, if thats what you want, just go buy one, they are all fantastic bikes. Nobody is asking him to build it just for the hell of it, they are asking because they want to own a true american superbike that needs no excuses & can beat the best the rest of the world has to offer. Is that so hard to understand? If the factory is going to back Hals...& yes they do quite a bit, although not to the extent that Honda goes...then give it 110%. BTW..HD does back the V-rod drag teams with big $$. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Socoken |
modern IL4s are water cooled because the engines are getting narrower and tighter each year. they are also becoming more and more powerful, which tends to equate to more heat generated. On top of that, most IL4s are stuffed in a small frame, and surrounded by plastic. water cooling allows for a smaller, lighter engine, narrower frame, and more aerodynamic fairings. why compare something like your R1 to a kawi ltd? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Grndskpr |
Did anybody decide to stop and think that maybe in its first year(yes Greg you know the FUSA rules were very different than they have now) of development that it is more important to finish a race than actually win, i mean with all the bad press, and the reliability issues of the past, maybe it means more to finish than to win, next year the real charge comes on, can you imagine the press Buell would get if they won a race or 2 but grenaded in 2 or 3, baby steps folks, maybe a little pacience is in order \R | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M1combat |
I've had some air cooled IL4's too Dyna, but they don't run the piston speeds they do now. What do you suppose would happen if they tried to air cool your R1? It'd rev to about 10K MAYBE... The Buell can be air cooled because it is capable of more efficient air cooling (because the cyl's are separate) and they don't need to rev to even 10K. The Buell engine seems to be pretty close to the "sweet spot" for air cooling. Too much more RPM's and we'll need water or shorter stroke (IMO) like the Italian twins. If we keep the stroke up and the RPM's a little lower then maybe Erik can find the sweet spot in the trade off game WRT Torque vs. HP. As far as the "True American Superbike"... I don't need one. What I do need is a bike that will keep up with the best the world has to offer on my local curvy roads. I think I have that. Beyond that, I'd like to see someone take the bike I have, throw a bunch of money and experts at it and be competitive with the best the world has to offer on the track (in it's class). I think I have that too. I don't need Buell to make a V4 for Moto GP although I think he'll head much more that direction as opposed to IL4 superbikes. Just MO. He seems more of a motoGP kind of guy than a superbike kind of guy. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| R1DynaSquid |
Suzuki still utilizes air/oil cooling for the Katana lineup as well as for the bandit 1200. The fairing has nothing to do with needing liquid cooling obviously. And who is comparing an R1 to an LTD? I was comparing different cooling means on IL4's. Water cooling is not required for them, it definitely helps them be more efficient & with the water jackets helps to quiet them down from mechanical noises. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Socoken |
you cannot argue that the katana fairing was designed with high performance as the goal. the katana is also a very wide bike (compared to gsxr 600 or 750) the bandit also has a wider engine, and although i cant find the specs, im reasonably sure it does not have the piston speeds of a GSXR. also, i cannot find a full faired bandit 1200 on the Suzi site. i brought your r1 up to support the claims i made in my post about higher power, higher cornering clearance, and a more speed oriented fairing than air cooled fours are able to support. it seems to me that IL4s need water cooling for significantly more reasons than v-twins. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Benm2 |
Yes it does. Which one lowered the price? And, which one can run race gas in the all-important AMA superstock / supersport classes?
So, are you saying that Buell's can't make more power because air cooling is a limitation? Also, last I looked the Buell XB frames were pretty small, and very narrow. XR750's have been air cooled for some time, without the benefit of the ducting & fans that Buell uses. They have made LOTS of power with those. Also, doesn't lycoming still manufacture air cooled engines? The fin density is higher, and the air flow can be managed. ALL motorcycles are air cooled. I bet you could "air cool" an R1, but the fins would be tough to manufacture, air flow management would also be a problem. The radiator is an easier choice, and the castings for heads & blocks cost less with no little fins on them. The Katana & Bandit run old GSXR engines, that were the s**t when they first came out. Do you think they weren't at the edge of piston speed then? Can you find a fully faired GSXR1100, maybe a few years back? Also, the cooling of the rear cylinder on a v-twin is also difficult to cool. The air that is does get has already been heated by the front cylinder, and the flow is disturbed when it gets there. So, it is difficult to cool them too. Seems, though, that Buell has a solution for that too, with their spiffy carbon ducts. |
