| Author | Message | ||
     Spatten1 |
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Aug/090812spie sinterview.htm Q You've mentioned DMG a couple of times. For a world-caliber rider, or a rider looking to make his mark on the World Championship, you absolutely left America at the right time. You couldn't have timed that any more perfectly. A It's definitely been a big change for a lot of people. I just ... I can't even make the right comments I want to make about it. But it would be one of those things, I don't even know if I'd be wanting to race, if I was back here, with just some of the things I've seen. It just makes it harder for the young guys to come up and get out of there, the way I know that people are on the world scale (are) looking at it. The pace car incident that I heard about, that almost put a few people in the hospital, was - that was pretty ridiculous. I actually watched, the first race I've watched, really, all year, was the Topeka Sport Bike race. I don't know if it's called Sport Bike or Top Bike whatever, but the one that Eslick and Cardenas are in. I watched Cardenas ride that thing, and this is nothing against - it's nothing against Buell, and it's nothing against Danny (Eslick), but it's definitely against regulations and rules and what should be legal and shouldn't be. I watched Cardenas come flying into the last corner, get the better of the two drives, and Danny was 20 bike-lengths back, and halfway down the straight, Martin looked back trying to judge which way he was going to go so he could block him. It'd be safe to say that 15 bike-lengths, for sure, were being made up on that one straightaway by the Buell. Not the back straightaway, but just the front straightaway. If that race is 22 laps, or however many laps it was, and you're gaining 15 bikes a straightaway, that's pretty much a free straightaway by the end of the race, and how many seconds is that? And that's just the front straightaway. It was crazy. It was 15 to 20 bike-lengths every time they hit the front straightaway, and that's just that part of the track. If you add that up over a race distance, you should be winning the race by over ten seconds. It's nuts. Q It's a mockery. A I saw that, and I just turned the TV off. Because the four-cylinders, they need some nitrous buttons, they need a Sneaky Pete system, to get some power on the straightaway. Man, I don't know. But again, Danny, they let it to be legal, and he's riding it. And he's doing what anybody else would do. But just the way the rules are, that bike should not be in that class. You've got the same bike, with a couple little mods, the same displacement, that's competitive against 1000s. So go figure. Granted, Adams leads Spies with negativity, that's what he does. However, Spies seems to have some pretty stong opinions of his own, he's definitely thought about this. I can't watch the DSB races for the same reason Spies said he turned the TV off. I want Buell to compete on more equal terms. I'm much more interested in watching the Superbike races with the 1125. That will be a great proving ground, and I hope Buell kills it, crushes the competition. I also hope Buell gets a top rider, as it will be tough to win without one. (Message edited by spatten1 on August 12, 2009) | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
I'm with you Mr Patten. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I think the argument comes back to the fact that if it were really that unfair, ALL of the Buells would have been making podium apprearances and not just one guy. Bike lengths don't count for crap. You get out of turn and into a straight, and everyone spreads out. The straights comes into a corner and everyone tightens up again. You have to go by seconds, not bike lengths. The definition of a bike length changes drastically around a course. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I guess Ben Spies does not understand all that stuff about bikes spreading out. | ||
| Hughlysses |
+1 Xl1200r. You guys have missed some REALLY good racing lately. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
To bad all those other Buell riders suck so bad. | ||
| S1wmike |
To bad all those other Buell riders suck so bad. +1 Fatty With all that superior hardware they should be fired for letting Japan's big 4 600's beat them. I am ashamed. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"ALL of the Buells would have been making podium apprearances and not just one guy." Eslick and Higbee aside, who else is there? If you put me on an 1125r, I wouldn't be on a podium. Point is, all "indians" being equal, would Buell have more than one bike in the points chase? Probably. If Spies rode the 1125r in the Sportbike class, how would he be doing? If the 1125R's were factory sponsored, do you guys think they'd have been allowed in the Sportbike class? | ||
| Bads1 |
Remember Superbike planet is like The National Inquirer. How much truth is in it??? | ||
| Bott |
yea, I guess the rest of the Buells need a Sneaky Pete system,too? I've watched ALL the races. Every track has straightaways. Buells should have all podium'd each race. Maybe they just needed more laps, and all would have won by full minutes. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Yeah, I bet Superbikeplanet just made that entire interview up. Like the New York Times. I'll bet Dean Adams could not even get close to a racer like Ben Spies. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I guess Ben Spies does not understand all that stuff about bikes spreading out. I'm the first to admit I'm not an expert on racing, and that said I don't even really know who Spies is, other than I recognize the name in the moto racings circle. That said, his comments would have sounded much more credible to me had he said, "The Buell is making up 3 seconds on the front straight every time", rather than in bike lengths. Lengths count in drag racing and horse tracks. After that, I don't want to hear about them. If you put me on an 1125r, I wouldn't be on a podium. And that's pretty much the whole point. If the Buell was really THAT much faster, everyone would be riding them. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
More reason not to like Spies. Chirping from the peanut gallery. That a-hole isn't here, isn't in the AMA paddock. Ridiculous. Posted by anony in the Racing Section. Please read as many times as necessary to understand. Can anyone send this to Spies? The stupidity of the magazines publishing this stuff is amazing. Not only do we not know what the power to weight is, but power to weight doesn't remotely tell the story on a roadrace course. There is so much more to a motorcycle than these morons write. I'll list three items and there are many more. 1) Just regarding power to weight, the conclusions of "unfairness" are ridiculous and uneducated. First of all the heavier bike will be at a disadvantage in every area except acceleration. Duh. The power doesn't help going into corners and the extra weight on the identical spec tires hurts braking and in corner speed. 2) Then, the impact of power drops off exponentially with speed when CdA takes over. So a heavy bike with a higher CdA would be slower into and through the corners, quicker once it gets out of the corners but then drop off and likely get passed on the long sraightaways. 3) A high inertia engine is wonderful for street tractability, and great in the wet, as the wheelspin is lazier and more controllable. Hmmm, wonder if that's why there were four Buells in the top ten at Road America in the rain? But crankshaft inertia is a disadvantage on a dry race track in the hands of top pro riders who ride with lots of wheelspin. Where traction is high, greater inertia hurts spin-up speed of the rear tire when setting a bike up to turn with a sliding tire. You can spin it up biut it's less responsive to do quickly, so your best bet is to break it loose early and hard under braking then keep it lit. With spec tires this means your tires will get fried earlier, and your ability to modulate the throttle and spin is slower too. Hmmm, sounds like Danny at Laguna, eh, if you watched the race with an interest in actually seeing what was going on. 4) (I know I said 3 but I had to throw in a bonus, but there are many, many more attributes at play in a motorcycle than these) As we said before, high engine inertia makes a bike mellow on the street as it keeps the bike from being jerky on and off the throttle, keeps dust or water on the road from being as much of a problem. But it makes a bike harder to snap right left through S type turns on a race track. The only way to get through these turns is to short shift and drop the rpm, but then the bike won't accelerate off the corner. So, what we are seeing is a race class that takes this complexity and differences in motorcycle design into account, and allows rules juggling as more information about the different bikes' performances comes in. And lo and behold, we have a great series, with 6 brands and significantly different types competing for the wins. These people who are tainting the great racing with truly uneducated "technical" comments like "What about more power" need to go back to school. Yes Danny has an acceleration advantage, but he was nearly ten MPH down on top speed to the Hondas on the long back straight at Road America. Did he whine about that? No. Don't you think it must frustrate him when the lighter bikes can outbrake him and block the smooth line he needs to take to minimize inertia effects, or drive around him in a corner later in a race after his tires are fried? Sure, but he never says "Well I could have won if those other guys weren't allowed lighter bikes" | ||
| Bott |
I actually watched, the first race I've watched, really, all year, was the Topeka Sport Bike race. I don't know if it's called Sport Bike or Top Bike whatever, but the one that Eslick and Cardenas are in. well, that's it for me. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Boy, Spies isn't a prick or anything. He really insults everyone in DSB with a comment like that....and DSB JUST happens to have the most entertaining racing of all that I have personally seen (except for the IOM TT.) I don't care what brand a person is puling for, it's hard to dispute that fact. (Message edited by fresnobuell on August 12, 2009) | ||
| Spatten1 |
None of that matters when you see some poor bastard like Hacking nearly crashing trying to drive off the corners because he knows he will get passed on the straight otherwise. You can talk about theory all day and night, there are superior racers getting beaten by a less skilled rider who pulls them on the straights. Period. BTW, I can't believe how many people that just started watching AMA racing this year are suddenly such experts. It's not as simple as faster bike wins so all the Buells should be up front. However, if you've raced or watched a lot of racing in the past, and were more objective, you'd pity the 600 riders running with Eslick, and you'd see how much harder and better they have to ride. For those that don't know him, Spies is one of the best, and smartest riders in the world right now. He does get it. | ||
| Jaimec |
Oh Boo hoo! The whole mean world is against Buell. Face facts, people... outside of the Buell community (i.e. BadWeb), NOBODY believes that bike belongs in with the 600s. And based on the multiple discussions I've seen in here, not everyone in the Buell community agrees either. I said it at the beginning of the season and I'll say it again. BUELL CAN'T WIN. If it does win, then the prevailing OPINION (maybe not fact, but the prevailing OPINION) will be that of course it won, it was nearly TWICE the displacement of the rest of the grid. If it DOESN'T win, then it CEMENTS the idea that the bike sucks because it can't even beat a bike of half it's displacement. Argue this with all the rationalities you want. That is going to be the opinion of ANYONE outside of the Buell community watching those races. And it is NO way to attract a non-Buell rider. Of far more interest will be watching it (with some factory and DMG approved mods) compete in Superbike where it runs against bikes of similar displacement. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I thought this article was an interesting analysis of the bikes competing in DSB from an unbiased source: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/03june09_das_mdstyl e.htm | ||
| Xl1200r |
It's not as simple as faster bike wins so all the Buells should be up front. Which is exactly why all the Buells aren't up front. You contradict yourself without even realizing it. If the bikes were all 100% equal aside from the Buell being able to pull faster on the straights, wouldn't logic dictate the Buell's should all be up front with everyone else behind? The bottom line, no matter how you slice it with theory or opinion, is Eslick and his team are playing by the rules and winning. Kind of like when Ford decided to race in the LeMans series in the 60s and DOMINATED because there was no displacement limit, and they decided not to stick with the 4.0L Ferrari's of the day. They played by the rules and won. Simple as that. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"Argue this with all the rationalities you want. That is going to be the opinion of ANYONE outside of the Buell community watching those races. And it is NO way to attract a non-Buell rider." I agree, all Buell is showing in the Sportbike class right now is that an 1125r can be faster than a 600. Nobody outside the Buell world is saying..."but how are the other buell riders doing?" Ducati competes, and kicks ass, at World Superbike with a V-Twin of lesser displacment than the Buell, who's racing against 600's. Why isn't Ducati racing the 1099 in Sportbike? Because they're running the 848. Hmmmmm. A bike for that class. There's a novel idea. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Wow Jaime, great article. The Polen sandbagging analogy is outstanding. I remember watching Polen in 92 or 93 wait patiently in 2nd place, running 3/4 throttle with the Duc, then suddenly just crank past the leader in the last couple of laps. Nearly every weekend. I also agree that this is lose/lose for Buell. Superbike is where it needs to happen, then Buell will get come credibility. | ||
| Bott |
So the "whole mean world" is against close exciting racing? I personally would not care less if Hyundai built a 2200cc bike that provided great racing. That said, Jaimec, I agree that the brand is in a "lose-lose" situation, and even when the American Superbike program is full swing, the whole homologation bit will just never be let go of... it's a shame some are missing out on some of the best racing of the year,due to hang-ups about displacement.(or watching ONE race and deciding the entire series is unfair) imagine only watching SEVEN random Daytona Sportbike races,and watching Martin Cardenas win them all...would the entire series be deemed unfair? | ||
| Xl1200r |
The Ducati is 1198cc, so it's 73cc larger than the Buell. It also makes something like 34 more hp than the 1125. On top of that, the 848 makes a mere 12 less HP than the 1125. Keep in mind, this is all in stock, not raced prepped, trim. | ||
| Indybuell |
Go Buell Racing!! | ||
| Spatten1 |
it's a shame some are missing out on some of the best racing of the year,due to hang-ups about displacement It's got nothing to do with displacement. It's about wanting to watch great racers on fairly matched equipment. Watching Eslick tear through the straights just makes it too goofy. It's close racing, but not good racing. They are not mutually inclusive. Go Buell Superbike racing. | ||
| Bott |
so, its NOT fairly matched equipment? have you seen the points standings? I'm afraid the Superbike racing will have the same results, with the Buell winning or losing. there is NO 1125RR streetbike, so why bother watching. Its not fair. And should we "pity" Barnes, racing against those little 600's? | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"The Ducati is 1198cc, so it's 73cc larger than the Buell. It also makes something like 34 more hp than the 1125." Duc makes a 1098R. Sorry I meant 1098 not 99. Happy fingers. The 1098r makes 180hp. From a V Twin. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
For those that don't know him, Spies is one of the best, and smartest riders in the world right now. He does get it. And you know this how??...you two intimate?? Seriously, he didn't even know the name of the class and by his own admission watched only one race. Hardly seems qualified to speak on the subject. Reminds of politicians who vote on bills they don't read. Oh and just because you're good at racing, in any sport, doesn't mean you know anything about the mechanics or engineering of your machine. | ||
| Spatten1 |
And you know this how??...you two intimate?? I LOVE THIS SITE!!!! | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
I was joking, btw......  |
