| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
Graph describing the methodology for determining the probability for the receipt of care within the new National Healthcare Program.  "Intervention" means healthcare. "Because none of the currently used systems satisfy all ethical requirements for just allocation, we propose an alternative: the complete lives system. This system incorporates five principles: youngest-first, prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value. … When implemented, the complete lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated … the complete lives system is least vulnerable to corruption. Age can be established quickly and accurately from identity documents. Prognosis allocation encourages physicians to improve patients’ health, unlike the perverse incentives to sicken patients or misrepresent health that the sickest-first allocation creates. “the complete lives system combines four morally relevant principles: youngest-first, prognosis, lottery, and saving the most lives. In pandemic situations, it also allocates scarce interventions to people instrumental in realising these four principles. Importantly, it is not an algorithm, but a framework that expresses widely affirmed values: priority to the worst-off, maximising benefits, and treating people equally. To achieve a just allocation of scarce medical interventions, society must embrace the challenge of implementing a coherent multiprinciple framework rather than relying on simple principles or retreating to the status quo.” --Ezekiel Emanuel (brother of Rahm Emanuel) | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Sounds cruel but with this type of system its most likely needed to keep itself afloat. | ||
| Reindog |
That is some twisted Third Reich kind of thinking. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Sounds cruel but with this type of system its most likely needed to keep itself afloat. Yea, I propose we don't use that type of system and allow people to pay for their own level of care | ||
| Sifo |
Isn't that the rationing that they claim isn't in this system? | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
I have one question that I never hear asked. If one has the money to pay for their own care are they not allowed to in a socialized system? Say you need a kidney transplant but under the socialized system you are not covered can you not pay for the operation yourself? I know that it would be expensive, probably past what most could afford, but could it not be done? You might still be very low on the availability list but could you not put up money to ensure that if a match becomes available you can still get the operation? | ||
| Elsinore74 |
Some interesting points at: http://www.cprights.org/ | ||
| Court |
>>>Say you need a kidney transplant but under the socialized system you are not covered can you not pay for the operation yourself? Money always finds a way. If they proceed with this ridiculous plan you are going to see fewer Doctors and a most interesting black market. Say you are 35 and a prime candidate under the "public option" for that kidney . . . but I, at 66, offer the Doctor $50,000 on the side to divert the resources and treat me instead of you. There is plenty wrong with the current system. But one of the things that is NOT wrong is quality or availability of quality service. Why does this 1033 page bill not mention tort reform once? How about the lawyer who got the guy with the poorly aligned stitches $27,000,000? That sound like something that needs fixing? But . . alas . . . guess who WROTE the bill (don't think for a minute that Obama or any member of Congress penned all that legalese) . . . you got it . . Trial Lawyers! America is on the verge of the biggest snow job in history. I'm kinda in the angry mob I guess. Who ever dreamed Americans would line up behind idiots? | ||
| Sifo |
If one has the money to pay for their own care are they not allowed to in a socialized system? In the UK they are not allowed to. In Canada I think it is the same. They have skirted that by coming to countries such as the US where they can pay for quality health care when their system fails them. What country will the US have to go to when we find our system failing us? | ||
| Sayitaintso |
Like Court said money finds a way.... why do you think there is such a booming "tourist" medical industry in the far east and India. Organ transplants are somewhat common for those that can afford it. | ||
| Oldog |
Money always finds a way. You presume that the goons in charge wont take that 50K from you and any thing else that you have, if that scenerio happens to me I am VSF under the proposed system the election will not come soon enough, to suit me. Toss all incumbents, 2 terms thats it. } | ||
| Buellerandy |
Wasn't the special agent <cough> I mean pretending president just in Mexico talking about supplying healthcare? Honest question, a buddy of mine mentioned that to me last evening and still haven't gotten around to searching for it. | ||
| Slaughter |
This'll be interesting. My doc already REFUSES patients on HMO plans. I am big on being responsible for my own medical insurance, choice of doctors and specialists and treatment because I race and I DO need specialists. It is another reason that racing is so freaking expensive. If the gubbmint is going to control costs, they are going to have to control life styles. Let's see some establishment of limits for body mass index, personal habits, risky behavior (multiple sex partners, smoking, rock climbing, snow boarding, team sports, motorsports... it's a big list) If we need to get crazy about this, there's PLENTY to get crazy over. | ||
| Hexangler |
Who ever dreamed Americans would line up behind idiots?Always have, always will. How did we get in Iraq? | ||
| Reindog |
What does Iraq have to do with the Government Seizure of Health Care? I am confused. Please enlighten us. There is a cure for Bush Derangement Syndrome. | ||
| Alchemy |
It would be nice to see the same essential graph for the present system. As for quality, we have plenty to go. Try googling "Nosocomial infections" and enjoy your stay at the hospital. It will get better but it will be expensive and take work. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
First thing you do; kill the lawyers... Next, politicians.... Then just maybe, just maybe you will get some 'reform' | ||
| Jstfrfun |
Jonnymceldoo(Brian), who is in his early 20s is comfortable with this crap but Old Man and me (and others over 55) not so much. I think Stalins purges and Hitlers selections had some merit...(sarcazm),do away with trial lawyers and cambridge proffessors and the like, then we'll see real change. | ||
| Madduck |
Killing is way to good for lawyers and their ilk. Since China has purchased most of our latest debt and we will need them to purchase more in the near future we must curry favor. Let us return to the "re-education" process Chairman Mao started. The "educated elite" were returned to the rice fields and coal mines and were worked like Nazi slaves for a few years, depending on how the "re-education" was working. Perspective is a hard thing to gain but that process still colors every action taken in China today. Having cleaned up after livestock for 21 years during my formative years, I have a true instinct of my place in society. I am sure others would benefit from some significat shovel work also. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Heres the basic problem of all of these social engineered programs and reforms. They fail to identify and embrace the true nature that is man, and especially capitalist man, He will always work to his best interest to protect his own intrests, assets, money and wellbeing; first, foremost and most violently. Threaten those and you will see a large proprotion of opting out of the system (criminal) behavior. When will the govt learn that it is NOT their job to ensure everyone the same life. It is their job to ensure that no other country enterferes with our own unique abilities to persue our own definition of life, liberty and happiness. Laissez Faire! Theres a revolution brewing; if you dont see it, you are not paying attention.  | ||
| Edgydrifter |
I hear a lot of people talking about revolution. I don't hear a lot of people volunteering to catch that first bullet. Not a criticism of you, Cityx. It was the same thing when Bush was in office. Everybody on the left claiming they were going to move to Canada, but nobody got around to actually doing it. I get that some people--maybe a lot of people--are frustrated, angry and kind of freaked out right now. I just wish folks would ratchet back the revolution rhetoric unless they're really ready to go, and ready to accept the very serious consequences of that decision. There's no going back once you start down that path. | ||
| Xl1200r |
There's no going back once you start down that path. That's kind of the idea. Revolution doesn't mean bloodshed. | ||
| Cyclonedon |
There is plenty wrong with the current system. But one of the things that is NOT wrong is quality or availability of quality service." Agree & Disagree! I agree on the part of "there is plenty wrong with the current system. I disagree on the quality or availability of quality service. I was in a motorcycle accident five years ago and I'm here to tell you that was a genuine nightmare dealing with the hospital! First I walked out of the emergency room roughly two hours after I was admitted with a bill of about $6000.00 dollars, which my insurance DIDN'T pay a nickel of! I learned a lesson in life there. NEVER trust our health care system and DON'T ever sign any papers they give you. Went through the same problems when my parents were living, our health care system is totally broken and long overdue of fixing! personally I hope the sob's that run our health care it rot in hell and all of the lobbyist working for them become unemployed! rant over! | ||
| Bikejunky |
I have a simple fix. 1. Not one person who has any kind of law degree is allowed to serve as an elected representative of the people. 2. Corporations, Limited liabilities, S Corps and the like are all dissolved and personal accountablity is restored. 3. Insurance is abolished and every person in the country pays for their own health care. (this should greatly reduce medical expenses due to the lack of litigation against doctors with fat insurance coverage) 4. US citizens are allowed to make weekly tax free contributions to a fund expressly for health care. 5. Politicians are housed in dormitories and allowed to have three assistants. They are fed, clothed, and have access to free health care while in office. Any travel other than to and back from their home state comes from their pocket. They are all paid 60,000 per year. 6. Campaign Contributions are allowed but none greater than 1000 per person (none other than a legal citizen of the USA may donate and that person must reside within the district the represtitive represents) and the contributions are taxed. That tax is set aside for feeding the homeless. 7. No elected official may serve more than 8 years. 8. Only US citizens are allowed to own land or opperate businesses inside the US borders. 9. Last but not least, no new legislation is allowed to be voted on until all representatives have read it in its entirety and there is a due date for each to be read by with stiff fines for not completing their homework. | ||
| Ourdee |
5. Politicians are housed in dormitories and allowed to have three assistants. They are fed, clothed, and have access to free health care while in office. Any travel other than to and back from their home state comes from their pocket. They are all paid 60,000 per year. Free health care provided by the Surgeon General. I would give them $5,000.00 per year to cover all travel. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You should never eat food made by a chef who won't eat his own cooking. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
Jonnymceldoo(Brian), who is in his early 20s is comfortable with this crap but Old Man and me (and others over 55) not so much. 2009-1978=31 Well I didnt vote for "hope and change" so Iam not sure where you get off saying Iam comfortable with this crap. Iam guessing old man was comfortable voting for obama but that would be wrong of me to assume. A big part of me wants my elderly, black hating, big time pro union neighbors to get this government healthcare which they supported with their 08 vote. I already have decent health care and I dont feel like its my right. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
At least I'm in the fat part of the curve. The largest expenditures are for those 65 and older. By the looks of that graph, there are going to be SIGNIFICANT cuts to Medicare. AARP has sold out their constituents. | ||
| Swampy |
Who you gonna Blame? This is being railroaded through, there is no stopping it and it is being forced upon us by the ruling class. That is right, ruling class, they are like pompus upper class monarchs without reguard for the desires of the serfs they were elected to represent. They are only serving their own selfish interests. HA, HA....Only Joking! Our fearless leaders only have our best interest in mind, don't worry, go back to sleep and ignore the public outcry on the streets. | ||
| Baybueller |
Nate, you have some great ideas there, problem is these yahoos decide their package. |
