| Author | Message | ||
     Jonathan |
This is from www.roadracingworld.com. I thought you guys would like to hear the news. Jonathan 1/29/2004 Funding Approved: Ciccotto, Barnes Will Race Buell XB12Rs In AMA Formula Xtreme Copyright 2004, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc. Mike Ciccotto and Michael Barnes will race Buell Firebolt XB12Rs in the 2004 AMA Formula Xtreme series. Ciccotto, who won the last-ever AMA Pro Thunder race on a Buell Firebolt, will ride for the Terry Galagan-run Hal’s Performance Advantage Buell team. Barnes, the 2001 Formula USA Buell Lightning Series Champion, will ride for the Rich Cronrath-run Kosco Harley-Davidson/Buell squad. Both riders will race on Pirelli tires. “I got the word that our funding came through just yesterday,” Galagan told Roadracingworld.com. “Now I have four weeks to get everything ready to go.” Galagan said that quite a bit of testing has been done to the Buell Firebolts since they last raced in AMA Pro Thunder in 2002. Improvements have been made in aerodynamics, horsepower and the chassis of the American-made motorcycles, according to Galagan. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Thanks for starting a separate topic for this. I wish them luck, Mike and Michael will be very busy racing both in Superstock and Formula Extreme. To jump off a GSXR1000 on to a Buell XB1350R and back will be tough, but they both have and can do it. | ||
| José_quiñones |
On a somewhat related note: More Changes In F-USA Thunderbike Rules And Purse Twins race with a 3.8 lb/hp limit, while watercooled IL4's race with a 4.5 lb/hp???? Gee, who are they trying to please? | ||
| Viros |
Does anyone have a 2004 AMA Formula Xtreme schedule? | ||
| Blake |
I thought that was strange at first too. But, it's supposed to be for "Thunderbikes" right, why even allow IL4s? It's about the sound of twins and triples blasting around a track. But back to your question... Who are they/FUSA trying to please? As far as I can tell, no-one other than fans of competitive racing. The new 3.8 LB/HP limit will definitely benefit the SV's, but they need some help against the Buells. The 4.5 LB/HP limit will keep some of the heavier water cooled IL4's reeled in, you know like an old CBRF2. Fair rules. Imagine that. | ||
| Crusty |
I would think that the same H.P./Lb. for all bikes would be fair. That way it wouldn't matter what the engine configuration or displacement is. | ||
| José_quiñones |
The schedule is the same as the AMA Superbike Schedule, but the FX races will probably run on Saturdays on that race weekend. Back to the revised FUSA Thunderbike rules: 3.5 lb/hp for current singles twins and triples, but 4.5 lb/hp for 10 year or older watercooled IL4's?  I'm sure he thinks it's fair...... | ||
| Blake |
Crusty, Think about HP versus top speed and also the effect of the rider's weight on the overall LB/HP relation and overall performance... With respect to going more quickly, when is optimum HP/LB most advantageous? When is peak HP more important? Take the scenarios to their realistic extremes. Imagine two motorcycles, one fairly light (like an SV700), say 350 LBs and with 90 rwhp (just under the 92.1 rwhp limit dictated by the 3.8 LB/HP rule)... Note: I wish they would state the formula in terms of HP/LB; in that form it makes more direct sense to me (Higher # = higher performance) it would work out to be 0.263 HP/LB). Anyway, now imagine another machine, a "heavier" motorcycle like a '94 VFR750 weighing in at say 450 LBs and putting down 116 rwhp (again just under the 118.4 limit dictated by a 3.8 LB/HP limit). Now add 150 LBs worth of rider and his gear to each bike. The total weight to HP ratio for the 350LB/90rwhp SV700 is then (350+150)/90=5.56LB/HP. While the total weight to HP ratio for the 450 LB VFR750 is (450+150)/116=5.17LB/HP. The difference between the two comprises a 7.5% performance advantage for the old VFR. You can see then from the above that the heavier machine with the same LB/HP limit and the same weight rider has a clear indisputable advantage in any contest of acceleration. It has more HP/LB overall. Given that the aerodynamics are likely very similar between the two machines, the heavier/higher powered machine will also have a clear advantage in top speed. It's one likely disadvantage of course is in handling. On a tight technical track less weight and better handling will tend to help equalize the competitiveness of the two machines. A lighter bike may be more advantageous than a higher powered albeit heavier one. On a high speed track (Daytona, Road America, Road Atlanta, Laguna Seca... most national venues) however, the heavier machine will have a clear advantage. The above analysis might also show that on high speed tracks the heavier Buell XB based machines might have a slight advantage against their lighter SV based competition. In my opinion, it would be more equitable to include the rider's weight in the equation instead of just the bike. Or add a bit more sophistication to the HP limit formula, something like max HP=(Weight+150)/5.5. A 400 LB bike would then only be allowed 100 RWHP instead of 105 RWHP, and a 350 LB bike would be allowed 93.5 HP versus 92 RWHP. So instead of a difference of 13 RWHP we'd have just 6.5 RWHP, half the difference. You can see then that given a simple straight 3.8 LB/HP limit for all bikes that a 450 LB machine like say a 1994 VFR750/RC45 with the same HP to weight limit as a 350 LB machine will have a serious advantage on high speed tracks. Thus, they lowered the HP/LB (increased the LB/HP) to help even the field. It is a perfectly valid approach to rules making where you are trying to maintain parity among widly varying configurations of machines. Whether it is fair and equitable in the case of old GSXR750's or Honda Interceptors or whatever, I don't know. It does seem a bit lopsided, but FUSA is known for their extremely fair minded approach to motorcycle road racing technical rules, unlike some other motorcycle road racing bodies with which we are familiar. My thoughts are that if FUSA wants to allow classic IL4's in the class, then instead of "Thunderbike" they ought to simply call it "Pro-Sportsman" or "Formula FUSA" or something like that. An IL4, unless set to run in a big bang (two cylinders igniting simultaneously) scenario, is NOT what I would ever consider a "Thunderbike" by any stretch of the imagination. I guess "Sportsman" conjures images of amatuerish club racing that the FUSA National series would like to avoid. JQ, If you are trying to imply that like AMAPR, FUSA is underhandedly seeking to promote one particular source of motorcycle ahead of all others, you are way off base; I tire of debating the issue with you. The preponderance of damning evidence and history of AMAPR executive management's bias and inconsiderate/"un-AMA" operating practices is well documented and irrefutable. By their past actions and their exclusionary and overtly biased rules AMAPR executive management has clearly demonstrated their intentions. Above all else, they are out for their own profit, American Motorcyclists be damned. With the advent of the new FX class, MAYBE that is about to change. I hope so. I'll be observing skeptically. Buell racers have once again stepped up and taken AMAPR at their word. Will Buell and other non-Japanese brand racers once again be deceived and abused by AMAPR? Time will tell. I remain skeptical yet optimistic. | ||
| Blackbelt |
Go Blake, It's your birthday, Go Blake, Go Blake, It's your birthday  | ||
| Sportsman |
How bout that. My handle is conjuring the image as intended! I agree, Thunderbike shouldn't have IL4's. it doesn't fit the class. I think the new rule relates that but they could have come out and said it. Happy Birthday! | ||
| José_quiñones |
You have never been to a FUSA event Blake, otherwise you would not praise them so. Talk to the guys at Hal's or Kosco about how "Fair and equitable" FUSA can be. That being said, they do the best they can and offer a real alternative to the AMA. God bless them for that. | ||
| Blake |
Where's this happy birthday stuff coming from? My b-day is a long way off in 2004. Thanks anyway.  | ||
| Aydenxb9 |
Blake obviously doesn't watch Crank Yankers. All I have to say about that is: Yea, yea, I'm going to Hawaii! Yea!!!!!!!! Hey lady? | ||
| Benm2 |
The old thunderbike rules were generous for older machines; no one (for the most part) took advantage of them. ONE showing of an old F2 was all it took for a rewrite, though. It's a class made for old Lightning series machines & worked SV650's. Buell puts money in the class, so its not a surprise that the rules are biased. Wonder why the "funding" took so long for the AMA team. Honda's been testing a worked CBR for months. I imagine, though, that the Buell factory's been busy. I'd also suspect that while not a "factory" team, the Hal's will receive more support from Erik's crew than the average racer. (who, by the way, will receive factory-level answers from a gent AT the plant, if they ask) | ||
| Sportsman |
Still, old lightning bikes will have to get to 115hp+- to meet the ratio. =1350 kit. I'm not sure with the lighter XB1200's if they can reach a maximum without getting radical. I hope so. Not haveing to get into spliting and boreing the cases before you can race a compettitive bike is a big incentive for budget racers. That's probably why the new ratio was drawn up. If a XB12 with a race kit gets near the limit, That works! | ||
| Anonymous |
No, Jose, Sadaam would not have supported the FUSA rules. He would have been right with you. "Everyone will race 600cc four cylinder bikes in every class, or I will kill them (or at least ridicule them)" | ||
| Benm2 |
THAT represents misuse of an the anonymous tag. What critical information is contained within this jab? I thought that most of the Lightning series bikes (at the leading edge) were under 400 lb, or close to it. Was the minimum weight 390lb? That puts hp in the 102-110 range, which is acheiveable without splitting the cases. BTW, I haven't seen anyone selling 1350 cranks. I guess that still falls into the category of "do it yourself". | ||
| Sportsman |
I don't have a clue where 390 came from. I know my tuber isn't that different than anybody elses and it's 440. That's why I'm wondering about the REAL weight of a XB12 and what it'll have to put out. I couldn't run up front if I were strapped to a rocket, but my bike was as good as anybodys and that made it safe to go out and not be in the way. Last year Thunderbike tubers were in the 125HP area. It was too big a difference for me to feel comfortable, so I sat it out. It's boreing the cases to fit in bigger jugs for bigger pistons. Same crank. | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah, that's what I was thinking... Something like the Nallin 1050 kit on a 12 makes a 1350??? | ||
| Davefl |
The 1050 kit would make a 1250. Remember the 9 is really 984cc. | ||
| Benm2 |
I'll have to check the old RRW articles; they usually listed weights for the lightning class bikes, along with the measured hp. Hoban or Tilley's might remember with more certainty, I guess they'll pipe up if they want to. I thought that the Lightning bikes ran alot of "special hardware", like mag wheels, no charging system, no starters, etc.  | ||
| Sportsman |
I'm sorry, I miss spoke. I've been living in an illusion. Curiousity got the best of me so I took a bathroom scale and don't know how accurate it is but came up with 215 on the front and 205 rear. so that's only 420 without any gas and the bellypan off. Still nowhere near 390 before Firebolts. Therefore tubers are lookin at 110hp+- and firebolts should be around 390 if I'm guessing right. So 102 is enough for them I think. Doable without big bore stuff. I'm a happier man. | ||
| Blake |
Did you have the opposing wheel on a stack of boards equivalent to the height of your scale? If not your measured weights will be slightly low due to the shift in CG. Ben, Some people cannot participate here an any manner without using the anony option. Their contributions need not always be informative or technical in nature. Sometimes they might just want to join in on the conversation. | ||
| José_quiñones |
That's a picture of Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, aka Baghdad Bob, not Saddam Hussein. get out of your cubicle a little more often. If FUSA wants Thunderbike to be exclusively for singles, twins and triples, write the rules that way, exclude everything else, don't play silly games like handicapping 10 year old inline 4's with a higher ratio after only one win by a 10 year old CBR600F2! It makes FUSA look silly and like they are trying to please a certain sponsor. edited by josé_quiñones on February 03, 2004 | ||
| Timbo |
The F-USA Lightning Series bikes do not run a charging system or a starter. IIRC, the 390 lb. minimum is accurate. I remember a couple years ago at Willow Springs when Jeff Johnson (Hoban Bros) finished in the top three. They check HP and weight of the top three finishers bikes as soon as they roll off the track. He passed the dyno/HP test ok, then his bike (S1) was put on a digital scale, it teetered between being exactly at weight and just under, mostly under. The race official was going to DQ him, but Jeff insisted that the way the bike was being "held up" on scale was un-weighting it, giving a false reading, he conviced them to let him steady the bike himself on the scale, it held, at weight for a couple seconds and they gave him the "ok". It was a tense situation, to finish that well and almost get bumped. We later checked to find the the tank had barely more than fumes left in it. It was great to see Jeff on the podium that day! Timbo | ||
| Dynarider |
That's why I'm wondering about the REAL weight of a XB12 XB12R is 461 lbs wet. | ||
| Sportsman |
Dyna you're raining on my happy time. I've a new illusion and I'm sticking with it. Timbo, are you sure on the 390, or has he got a primary belt or something? 30 lbs is alot to get off of a race bike. I do carry a starter, maybe 5lbs. S&S crank might account for 1. I don't know where else it could be. | ||
| Dynarider |
Sorry, but facts is facts. Course if you only use a half tank of gas, dont top off the oils, fill the tires with helium & go on the Karen Carpenter diet plan  | ||
| Koz5150 |
Oil??? Who needs that? I saw that Slick 50 comercial and they drove a Dodge Viper all day in the desert without oil. It must be true! | ||
| Kaese |
From my experience in racing, whatever the class, the racers figure out what is faster and will drift toward that combination. There are always one or two campaigners that will want to win that particular class. Hopefully, the XB will be treated fairly. |
