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Mikej
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 03:41 pm: | 
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"Or you think that it is. "
That would be the "reasonable and prudent man" test. And is always judged after the fact and subject to interpretation. |
Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 03:42 pm: |
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Well...
Being the token LE guy in this thread... I must agree with Budo again... those that allow you to cuff them... and those that do not! Been there...done that!!!
AND... about the ego comment (and please take this in the humor it is offered)... that is cool... until you see the red lights behind you... pull over... and one of those guys looks through his mirrored sunglasses at you and says... "Boy... ya remember me don't ya... could ya sign here please?"
There is some discretion in petty offenses... and that is when attitude is the pivotal point of leaving with a warning... or with a bunch of tickets! It is unofficially referred to as "Contempt of Cop"
Kinda like the list of things not to say when stopped...
like "Are you Andy or Barney?"
Or after it has been pointed out your eyes are blood shot... and it is asked if you have been drinking... you would say "Officer, your eyes look glazed... have you been eating donuts?"
that kind of stuff is "Contempt of Cop" and any chance of getting a break diminishes at light speed!!!
...and by the way... I like the Benelli M-3 better than the M1 or the newer M1 Super 90... I have competed with all three. GREAT TOYS!!! |
Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 03:45 pm: |
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M1
What I meant by that was, yes you have every right ot carry a gun, that I believe. and as said earlier it ain't guns that kill its people that kill. But most every situation can be avoided by thinking first and just remove yourself. I guess what I meant was the rest of the comment of "like a cowboy on his way to the ok corral"
I don't claim to know anything about anything. But I was a bouncer at a big ass college rock n roll bar for 5 years. I never once had a punch thrown at me and I never once threw a punch and no knifes or anything. I did throw alot of folks out tho. Most of the time I thought it out and figured out a way to get them out with out getting my ass beat in the process or beating on theres.
I also am 40 years old and never been in a fist fight or ever owned a gun. I ain't bragging but it can be done if one tries.
I ain't judging you or anybody else if thats how it came out. I am just sick and tired of the new world we live in, when its shoot first and then deal with it later. |
Mikej
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 03:48 pm: |
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Case in point, somewhat indirectly related to the current discussion:
If your state or country of residence has a concealed or open carry weapons provision, and if you believe due to public disclosure rules that applying for a permit to carry would jeopardize your personal or family safety, would a reasonable and prudent man: a) not carry and not apply for a permit; b) carry and not apply for a permit; c) talk to a lawyer first before making a decision; d) move to Vermont?
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Budo
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 04:14 pm: |
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"The prudent man test" Guy approaches you in a dark parking garage and says 'I have a gun and I will kill you!' Ok, I believe him, my life is in danger. True story, guy walks up to a off duty security guard and points a starter pistol at thim. The off duty guard shoots the guy. True story, after dark, iffy part of town. A guy pulls up to a atm kiosk to get some cash. He see four young black men in a car, just sitting. He choses to enter the kiosk anyway, because he is legally armed, ccw. He is ready, with his gun out and held by his side when three of them come thru the door with guns out. He put holes in all three, none died. The driver sees all of this thru the glass walls and drives away. So monday morning QB. I would not have gone in the place ccw or not. I want to avoid trouble if at all possible. Good book on this, 'In the Gravest Extreme' by Massod Ayoob (sp). |
Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 04:19 pm: |
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GOOD POINTS... Budo & Mikej
When you have no choice but to use deadly force... presenting the facts... based on appropriate judgment... the second part, is being able to properly articulate why you did what you did when you determined you had to take that action... and why it was the best/only option to stop the encounter!
look back at my ramblings about the knife video... notice I said...
"General rule... a knife attack... as soon as the suspect is within 21 feet... and advancing... if you want to go home... you had better stop him!!!!
The key words were "stop him"
LE is trained to shoot to stop. To stop what life threatening action they encounter... not shoot to wound... not shoot to kill... but to shoot center mass to stop. Not just only one shot... or only two shots... but what it takes to stop the life threatening action. We went from training double shots to three shots. Humans are very resilient... and get someone that is focused... hell bent to do whatever... and lord they are hard to stop!
That is why LE is trained to never give up... never stop fighting no matter how bad the injury... how many times one is shot. FIGHT... FIGHT... FIGHT... never give up...never quit! SURVIVE. Gunshot wounds can be bad... but they are VERY survival in most cases. Excluding head or spine hits. When trying to stop someone... even when shot in the heart... examples have shown... with the will to fight... even though they are dying... they still continued to be a threat! AND still fought and cause harm!
Sometimes it takes only one hit... other times several hits. Quite often those that must be stopped are on the most powerful drug known to mankind... adrenalin... and focused with unwavering drive and the desire to complete their goal.
I have been a firearms instructor for 18+ years... and I often see amazement from both cops and the public when someone is shot several times... yet continues... or does not drop like a rock.
My response is often... "Do you hunt or know a hunter? Is it unusual for a deer to be shot and run off never to be found... or found dead several yards to several hundreds yards away?"
Most of the time the answer is... "No... it happens all the time!"
"So think about this... You shoot a 160 to 200 pound deer... with a high powered rifle... and you are not surprised... or even you even expect it to run off. BUT... if a man the same weight is shot by this little and less powerful handgun round... you expect them to drop with one shot!"
"Now... does that expectation sound unrealistic?"
SORRY... the instructor in me came out!!! |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 04:20 pm: |
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>>>>Back off and enjoy the scenery,
Time is precisou, a few quick thoughts....
Last year, Son #1 (also quite skilled in the finer art of defending himself) responded to a threat from 3 young men. When the Lawrecnce, KS polic arrived all three were out cold in the parking lot where they tried to jump him. When one of their JoCo J.D. pops got the DA to file charges, son eventually got off, but not after I anted up about 11K to a cheesy JoCo atty. Bad science.
I was standing with Jack Eaton (old Kansans will recall Eaton's Men's Wear) the night Kenny Baker (old racers will recall Roger Baker (brother) on his Carabella, put a staight razor to Jack (who for the sake of argument was "right" and sliced him wide open from adams apple to about 2" above his male organ. If you've ever gutted an animal and seen it's innards slide out, you're as good as "in the moment" with me...I saw Jack's tummy outside him.
It was but a short 8 days later when I took 3 shots from a Remington 1100 laoded with an odd mixture of #4 and #5 from about 35'.
Right, dear friends, does not stop bullets.
Someday, sometime, someone who lacks knbowledge of what has happened to, say for instance someone like me, in the USMC, Secret Service, personal life, etc, could make a grave mistake.
For me?
I'm a pussy and avoid confrontation, feeling I am at my limit in one lifetime.
No right or wrong, just...as stated above, if you engage be ready for anything...you never know what snakes in that hole you're sticking your arm in.
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Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 04:31 pm: |
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Hey Court...
My big boss is retired SAC USSS.
Yes guys... discretion is the better part of valor.
Some of the most dangerous people I know (good guys) give the impression of being the Marvin Milktoast type... until they have no choice but to act... then watch out!!! |
Bomber
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 04:34 pm: |
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after reading the thread, and watching it morph, I'm sure that all and sundry mean well with their input, and I respect the training and knowledge many here have . . . but, at the end of the day, getting shot hurts alot (so do knife wounds), and, short of protecting my family and dear friends, there ain't much that I think is worth getting that hurt over . . . .
I can't say that I havn't left a couple fo size 12 dents in a couple of cars from time to time, but they are all long off the road by now, and that I ain't gonna put myself in a position like that again . . . ..
not to dis any of the posters here, nor their knowledge, but my experience tells me that attitude and orneriness will overcome thousands of hour in a dojo or other training environment . . . .
you may now return to your philosophical rambling about self-defense, offense, cabbages, and kings (grin) |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 04:39 pm: |
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Budo - I didn't mean to imply that Jiu-Jitsu is the ultimate. It has been proven time and time again in the UFC that you MUST have a good combination. I don't think ANYONE has ever won a UFC title that didn't have a good deal of experience with Jiu-Jitsu or one of it's MANY variations. I think though, that if you took top fighters from all disciplines (like the old UFC's 1-10) and put them in a "nearly no rules" fight, the Jiu-Jitsu players would almost always come out on top until they meet someone with a good mix. Even against MUCH larger (Gracie vs. Severn - UFC#4) opponents or opponents who are much stronger and faster and know a good deal about striking (Gracie vs. whatever that guys name was).
Also Budo - I guess I should have gone farther with the last of my post - I would make sure that my life was in danger before I shot someone. As I said, I don't want to hurt anyone, but I will do what it takes to make sure I make it home. If that's run, fight or shoot in THAT order, that's what I'll do.
Das - As far as Contempt of Cop is concerned, I have a deep respect for police officers. Truly. Thank you for your service. I have no contempt of cop at all the first time I meet one. There is one in town however that I don't like and do have a bit of contempt for (I make sure to hide it from him though). On the other side of the coin though, he has a good deal of contempt for me too. I practiced Jiu-Jitsu with his boss (the captain of criminal investigation) and one time walked up to the both of them and a few other officers and started talking about "the weather" with his boss and ever since then he just looks the other way when he see's me coming. That captain knows that I have no contempt of cop and probably explained that to his fellow officer. As a matter of fact, the belt that I wear right now came from that Captain. He gave it to me when mine got stolen from my truck along with a few other things.
At any rate, I will do everything in my power to be sure not to hurt anyone if it's AT ALL possible. When I feel my life genuinely threatened though, I'll do what it takes. I suppose though, I've never been faced with that situation. Maybe I don't have the balls to pull the trigger and I'd get myself shot because of it. Who knows. All I can do is pray that I never need to find out.
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Dasxb9s
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 04:46 pm: |
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A soldier saying...
prepare for war... pray for peace.
once again...
discretion is the better part of valor!
Life is short... enjoy the trip while it lasts... choose to be the smart man... avoid confrontations.
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M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 05:22 pm: |
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I'll do my best Dennis.
I'll also pray that if I DO indeed need to find out, that I am a better shot than the other guy. |
Budo
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 05:36 pm: |
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quote 'Budo - I didn't mean to imply that Jiu-Jitsu is the ultimate' I did not take it that way. I feel that training in pretty much everything is the best way to go. I also agree that grappling has made a real impact especially in UFC. I dunno which match it was, a guy, very impressive in training had something like 5 black belts. They showed him training with five attackers, blocking and striking at the same time. He lasted 40 seconds in the UFC. He got choked out by a grappler! I saw the Gracie vs Severen bout. I need to view it again. Gracie is very impressive. True story, buddy of mine had experience in several styles including Judo. A Judo guy overheard my buddy talking to the instructor about sef-defense techques. The Judo guy gets a attitude about it, that Judo is the ultimate self-defense, etc. So my buddy says ok, step out on the mat. My buddy who had alot of Judo amongst other things knew what the pure Judo guy would do and kept him off, kicked and punched him silly. So, train in multiple displines and don't fight the other guys fight. |
Bradj
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 05:38 pm: |
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Bubba wrote:
I also am 40 years old and never been in a fist fight or ever owned a gun.
An overall wearing, pickup truck driving representative of The International Brotherhood of Bubbas will be there shortly to revoke your membership. 
Another Bubba poser...exposed. How tragic.  |
Nevco1
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 05:41 pm: |
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Good night Rambo.
Good night Col. Braddock. |
Josh_
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 05:45 pm: |
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I thought it was
Pray for peace, and pass the ammunition. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 05:55 pm: |
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Budo - If you think Royce is impressive, Check out his brother Rickson... A record of something like 151-0 in REAL underground fighting all over the world. He's the only Gracie that Sakuraba wouldn't fight.
A quote of his... "A strong body is a good asset. A strong mind is a very good asset."
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Court
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 06:29 pm: |
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>>>discretion is the better part of valor.
Ahh.....quoting Shakespeare now, are we?
The ACTUAL quote was....
"Caution is preferable to rash bravery." Said by Falstaff in King Henry the Fourth, Part One, by William . |
Road_thing
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 07:29 pm: |
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Court...thou shag-eared villain...
r-t |
Buellsnblondes
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 08:41 pm: |
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Lifes interesting twists.... after 2 miles of attempted car/bike tag on the 101 loop in the Phoenix area, I was finally unnerved enough to lift my jacket just enough to expose the handle of my otherwise concealed Glock to the offending driver. Not only did this gentleman back off, he actually helped me out by alerting the local highway patrol, whom in turn pulled me over. At this point, I surrendered my weapon and carry/conceal permit to the kind officer, and gave him my version of events. About this time, the offending driver stops, jumps out of his car yelling loudly..."that's him...that's him!". The officer, somewhat surprised, asks the gentleman for ID, and takes his statement. After doing a computer check, the officer approaches the gentleman and arrests him on an outstanding warrant, and proceeds to ticket him for reckless endangerment.
After a delay of 25-30 minutes, my weapon is returned to me and I'm on my way... a small sacrifice in time to remove another dumbass from our roads. Sometimes....life IS fair!
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Jon
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 09:29 pm: |
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Now THAT is a good story! |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 10:10 am: |
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"come, see what fools these mortals be . . . . ." |
Innes
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 12:58 pm: |
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That's the lovely thing about living in Europe there aren't too many loose guns around, & if some idiot in a jam jar wants to play tag you should be able too lose him on a bike. Lady Di's chauffeur tried it & look what happened, demolished 600 mercedes.
Also if you're fairly sure the other guys not carrying you're less likely to be scared to pull him out & kick his fuckin head in
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