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Rainman
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 08:12 am: | 
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Here's the latest update from the Associated Press:
By GREG RISLING
Associated Press Writer
LOS ANGELES (AP) — Mongols can no longer wear patches bearing the motorcycle gang’s insignia following what appears to be an unprecedented court order stripping them of their trademarked logo.
U.S. District Court Judge Florence-Marie Cooper on Wednesday granted an injunction that prohibits gang members, their family members and associates from wearing, licensing, selling or distributing the logo, which typically depicts the profile of a Mongolian warrior wearing sunglasses.
Prosecutors requested the injunction after authorities arrested dozens of Mongol members under a racketeering indictment.
“If a Mongol is wearing a vest or jacket bearing the Mongols patch, that item is pursuant to seizure based on this order,” said Assistant U.S. Attorney Steven Welk.
It is believed to be the first case in the nation in which the government has sought to take control of a gang’s identity — via its logo — through a court order.
“I’ve never heard the government going after something like this in this context,” said David Welkowitz, a law professor at Whittier Law School. Welkowitz said attorneys and academics who specialize in trademark law are wondering whether the order will stand.
Sixty-four Mongol members have been arrested in six states under an indictment released Tuesday.
The indictment describes a tightly organized group, which is mostly Latino, that routinely engages in murder, torture, drug trafficking and other offenses.
Among 79 people named in the indictment, 15 were still at large, said Mike Hoffman, a spokesman with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
The judge initially issued an injunction Tuesday, but that order was limited to barring the sale or distribution of the logo. New language was added, saying the gang members and their affiliates “shall surrender for seizure all products, clothing, vehicles, motorcycles ... or other materials bearing the Mongols trademark, upon presentation of a copy of this order.”
Welk said his office is drafting the protocol for such seizures. Law enforcement agencies could begin enforcing the injunction by Thursday or Friday, he said.
Observers questioned whether the injunction is constitutional.
“Here you have the government stepping in and preventing a rights holder of using the (trade) mark they legally obtained,” said attorney Douglas Mirell, who specializes in First Amendment cases.
“It strikes me as a serious potential First Amendment violation to have the government come in and attempt to, and in this case exceed, stripping lawfully obtained rights,” he added. “This is one for the record books.”
Meanwhile, 44 defendants have appeared in court, all of them pleading not guilty. It wasn’t immediately clear whether they had been assigned defense attorneys.
The incarcerated Mongols were being kept at various federal detention centers, separate from inmates loyal to the Mexican Mafia gang, said Anthony Burke, a supervisory inspector with the U.S. Marshals Service in Los Angeles.
Segregation of incarcerated rival gang members is common practice.
The Marshal’s Service is guarding 60 motorcycles, almost all of them Harley-Davidsons, that were seized during Tuesday’s operation.
Burke estimated the average value of the customized machines to be $22,000.
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Associated Press writer Thomas Watkins contributed to this report |
Jerseyguy
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 09:02 am: |
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Rainman - To continue your thought - If the HD style motorcycles are used to aid and abet these crimes, then we should ban these vehicles. We can define what parts constitute this type of bike. We can do an instant check on purchasers to see if they meet the criterion defined by the government to own such a vehicle. Sound familiar? That's why I belong to the AMA and the NRA. |
Ceejay
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 09:26 am: |
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Sounds like High School rules being applied to the general public |
Rainman
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 09:44 am: |
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It's interesting....one interpretation is that the seizure of the trademark doesn't affect the corporate structure of the Mongols so, as a corporation, they still exist. They'd just have to develop new trademarks.
http://www.mydailyprogress.com/index.php/onebrick/comments/government_owns_the_name_mongols/
http://www.mydailyprogress.com/index.php/onebrick/comments/outlaws_arrested_and_their_name_taken_by_the_feds/
(Message edited by Rainman on October 23, 2008) |
Bill0351
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 11:21 am: |
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"The only one that brought Obama to the table was Bill, I never mentioned him at all." -Cityxslicker
"Be ready for a lot more of this type of BS - should start sometime around mid Jan '09" -Kilroy
I was responding to Kilroy's remark. I am not aware of anything else happening in mid January that he could be referring to except the inauguration on Jan 20th.
I think the feds should sell off the trademark to HD so they can start selling Mongols gear off the rack to middle-class bikers everywhere.
I'm not sure if they are prosecuting this as a RICO case or not, but the law is pretty clear.
"The punishment for violating the criminal provisions of RICO is exceptionally harsh. If convicted, a defendant is fined and sentenced to not more than twenty years in prison for each RICO violation. Furthermore, the defendant must forfeit any interest, claim against, or property or contractual right over the criminal enterprise, as well as any property that constitutes the racketeering activity or was derived from the racketeering activity. Finally, RICO contains civil provisions that allow a party injured by a RICO defendant to recover from the defendant in civil court. A successful civil RICO plaintiff may collect treble damages, or three times the amount lost to the defendant, as well as attorney's fees and other costs associated with the litigation. The intent of the many and various sanctions is to cripple and ultimately eradicate organized crime enterprises."
It looks like the Mongols need to drop a line to the ACLU, unless that group is too much of a pile of "liberal free speech first amendment whackos" for them. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 11:52 am: |
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Could this be the same staffer who told me that "taking pictures of people in public is illegal"? |
Rainman
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 12:03 pm: |
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Gads! If taking pictures of people on the street and in public is illegal, I've been violating the law for 30 years! Not to mention all the paparazzi.
Supreme Court has ruled that there is no expectation of privacy in a public place, which is why they can put cameras on every street corner, if they want to.
Snap all you want, man, if they's on the street, they's fair game. |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 01:47 pm: |
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If convicted, a defendant is fined and sentenced to not more than twenty years in prison for each RICO violation. Furthermore, the defendant must forfeit any interest, claim against, or property or contractual right over the criminal enterprise, as well as any property that constitutes the racketeering activity or was derived from the racketeering activity.
Looks to me like they skipped a couple of steps in the due process of arrest, arraign, convict cycle
And a jury of their peers?.... Gonna get the Hells Angels to sit in jury review?} |
Rainman
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 02:34 pm: |
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The interesting thing about RICO and drug seizures is that they are civil proceedings and the government is considered to be the owner until the owner files a lawsuit and can prove the property was NOT used in a criminal activity. Being found guilty or not guilty is not part of the civil suit. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 03:41 pm: |
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I am not a huge fan of the system and have just returned from an appointment with a "victim's advocate".
Several weeks ago a fellow tried to get in our house while we were both home. My wife scared him off, I called 911, 3 minutes later 8 NYPD Officers arrived, guns drawn, found the guy in the neighbors garage, cuffed him and away they went.
About a week later I get an "Order of Protection" that tells this guy, in writing not to bother me, at my address and at my phone number. Bear in mind he had no idea who I was or that I was involved up to this point.
I get a letter that I am to go visit with a "victims advocate" in a place called "safe harbor".
Basically I had to read and sign the arresting officers statement.
While doing so the gal told me "we are about to run out of time and I don't want to let this guy walk".
I explained that I had a very bad and memorable experience wherein I was shot 3 times with a 12 gauge shotgun, protected until trial, had a .38 stuck in my mouth, threatened and then, in court, intimated as the defense attorney paraded in front of me waving a bandolier of 12 gauge shells telling me "you never know what can happen".
I explained to the nice lady today that to say I had the capacity for an elevated reaction and perhaps, to some, what may appear a heightened level of self-protection as a result of my personal experience, was somewhat of a gross understatement.
I asked her it there was any need for me to take measures to exercise additional cautions.
When I told her I was concerned that several of the eight responding officers knew this guy as a "career criminal" and asked her if there was a need for me to take measures to keep myself and my family safe she thumbed through the rap sheet and said "He really has a long rap sheet but I don't see any record of violence of weapons. . it's mostly drugs and alcohol."
I shared with her that he tried to break into what was obviously an occupied residence and I explained I doubted he was coming to have a drink with us.
Then she asked me "what would you like to see happen to him?". I said "what do you ordinarily do?". She told me that the DA had made two offers of reduced sentences and that they just kept reducing until the guy agreed, then they found him guilty of some innocuous crime and turned him back out.
I told her I was starting to see why some of the problems we have occur with such regularity and asked if I could arrange, in advance, for such treatment should I ever cross the lines of legality.
It is . . . bottom line . . . a REALLY •••••• up system. |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 06:38 pm: |
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When I was a Freshman I did police ride alongs for a class, and then court for followups. The most frustrating thing was seeing people caught dead to rights, doing what they were arrested for on friday, and have them walk on monday with 'time served or community service'. I will NEVER do law enforcement.
Well gee, I suppose his gun was unloaded.... still dont see how that means unarmed?!?! Welcome to the 9th circuit dist court system. Home of the piddle down theory. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 06:44 pm: |
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RICO enhancements are extremely tough to send anyone upstate on.
It was created for an extremely distinctive set of circumstances, and demonstrates limited adhesion outside of these. |
Johnnylunchbox
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 08:54 pm: |
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RICO. The name in itself is an ethnic slur. It was a tool to combat the Italian organized cime syndicates. Anyone who's ever worked in any level of government knows that they like their clever little acronyms. I can visualize the smug self-satisfaction of the clown who came up with that name. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, October 23, 2008 - 08:59 pm: |
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(Message edited by tramp on October 23, 2008) |
Oddball
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 05:45 am: |
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A crazy thought occurred to me. It will require the go ahead by the Confederation of Clubs, 1%'ers and all. It could be done with t-shirts but it wouldn't be the same. Perhaps they could allow wearing of "Black Label Society" patch set or some patch set designed/approved by them. I understand that they can be very sensitive to anyone just wearing a cut, however, this could be a way for all who do not like the power grab being made by the feds to visually protest.
Imagine the suits behind all these latest moves having nowhere in public to hide without facing cuts everywhere they look. Probably an unworkable idea but one hell of a visual, peaceful way of showing disapproval. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 06:01 am: |
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You do understand that the COC represents fewer than 1/8 of all US 1%er clubs, and is comprised only of those aligned with an Illinois-based big-4 org., right?
The 1%er world is nowhere near as simple as it may appear to the outsider. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 06:24 am: |
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>>>The 1%er world is nowhere near as simple as it may appear to the outsider.
Ditto the group RICO was aimed at . . . they got smart and laugh at it now. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 06:47 am: |
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....and then they abruptly stop laughing whenever they hear Ukranian or Serbo-croat being spoken.... |
Rainman
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 06:55 am: |
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As my brother, a career cop with stints in every aspect including vice and SWAT, once said: You have to be able to protect yourself for at least five minutes.....
That's the targeted response time most departments have to get to emergency calls. |
Oddball
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 07:32 am: |
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Ok, I said it was a crazy idea. CoC was the only name off the top of my head I'd heard of where one might be able to quickly arrange such an idea. If it isn't the UN of clubs then that idea will just end badly no matter how good my intentions. |
Rainman
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 07:32 am: |
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Oops, wrong post on the wrong board. I'm not too good at this multi-tasking thing.....
Don't ask.... |
Indy_bueller
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 09:22 am: |
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“shall surrender for seizure all products, clothing, vehicles, motorcycles ... or other materials bearing the Mongols trademark, upon presentation of a copy of this order.”
And here I think, we have the real goal. They are using the trademark question to confiscate everything individual Mongols own that has the Mongols logo on it. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 10:03 am: |
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....and then they abruptly stop laughing whenever they hear Ukranian or Serbo-croat being spoken....
Or Russian/Yiddish. Not much value given to human life by my Rusky relatives that live outside the system. |
Bill0351
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 11:10 am: |
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The more I read about this, the more it bothers me. I really don't have a problem with the feds eventually taking their pound of flesh and humiliating the Mongols by confiscating their trademark. From what I have read, they have long ago changed from a cycle club to an organized criminal enterprise.
I would no more wear a t-shirt that supported them than I would one that says, "I (heart) cancer." They play a dangerous game, and it looks like they lost.
What bothers me is that they are still American citizens even if they are parasitic American citizens. They have the same "inalienable rights" as anyone. They are innocent until proven guilty. If there is no imminent danger to the public, they shouldn't have their trademarked logo messed with.
As Mongols, I could care less what happens to them, and I am sure they feel the same about me. As Americans, I want them to fight for their rights and win.
(Message edited by bill0351 on October 24, 2008) |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 01:23 pm: |
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"and then they abruptly stop laughing whenever they hear Ukranian or Serbo-croat being spoken"
It really is the only way I get paid for my Russian degree. The locals are more into auto chop than bike running though. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 03:20 pm: |
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They have the same "inalienable rights" as anyone. They are innocent until proven guilty.
Until proven guilty, the Feds will probably not try to get the trademark. Once you are a felon you lose a lot of rights. |
Rainman
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 03:39 pm: |
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The Feds -- or local law enforcement for that matter -- may seize under civil statutes any property or cash that they claim to be used in or purchased by illegal activities. They take immediate possession and the previous owners must then file a lawsuit to get the property back.
Because the action is a civil action, it is up to the former owner to prove that the items were not used in criminal activity. Even if found not guilty, a civil jury may order the property to remain seized.
They do not need to prove that the owner of the property was involved in activity, either. If your brother-in-law is dealing drugs out of your Mustang, the cops can seize your car regardless of the fact that you were in Micronesia at a conference.
You then have to file a lawsuit and prove your brother-in-law was not using the car to deal drugs.
It's very convoluted and somewhat insidious.
(Message edited by Rainman on October 24, 2008)
(Message edited by Rainman on October 24, 2008) |
2008xb12scg
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 04:50 pm: |
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Once again I would ask, what does this solve? Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to support the Mongols but it does make me want to put on a Mongols jacket to prove a point. Not that I would. They take the colors, politcians get to say "we fixed the Mongol problem" The mongols still do what ever the do we just can't spot them as easy-problem worse. And it makes regular guys sympithetic towards the Mongols. |
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