| Author | Message | ||
     Nevco1 |
Oh Lord...I love the way this thread has evolved. Too funny for words. Just the mental pic of Mr. B bouncing on his parts is enough to make my day. Should have been at the Lookout Restaurant the day Reggie Jackson almost did himself in trying to catch up to the Bike Mag Boyz when they were doing articles on him converting to sport bikes and taking Keith Codes Class. The Dorks, didn't wait for him to zip up those shiny new leathers and he scrambled/fumbled to catch up. No contact other than hands and huevos on the Yammie all the way out the very rutted gravel and dirt parking lot. Looked like a dying frog bouncing along with his feet well above the tailpiece. Would have looked more like Kermit in a Blender had the landscape maintenance truck not locked 'em up. He never looked and pulled right out in front of it. Then again, in that unique riding position, he couldn't have stopped anyway. At least not upright and in the parking lot. Man, you could have heard a mouse fart for a good ten minutes after that. Had he not made it, we were all concerned about the bad press and subsequent increased law enforcement on the Ortega Hwy. | ||
| Court |
>>>>neve did a wheelie past teh cop shop in ET That is inaccurate information. It SHOULD read neve did a wheelie past teh cop shop in ET while standing on the rear pegs of a red S-2 holding on the seat, which had just come loose, by hooking his right leg over it. That, of course, never happened nor did the little "incident" when two bikes passed a concealed speed trap.....er wait...what's the statute of limitations? By the way, I summarily accuse you of skewing the press to favor your tale by picking one of the "events" where MB and M2 did NOT part company....thus making AA look like a hero. Some of my best memories, in fact, never happened. | ||
| S320002 |
For those who think the Supermoto rider in the picture above is "backing it in". Take notice of his rear tire shadow. Did he just finish sliding over the yellow tire on the inside of the track? | ||
| Henrik |
Dave; the thing will highside you so hard they will need a backhoe to get you out of the pavement! Into the next county more likely ... Dave, that's kinda my point. Yes, you can turn quickly by pushing the bike down, however, fact is you are decreasing the available traction by doing so. Will there be enough to make it through a turn at a given rate of speed?? Only testing will tell  Personally I prefer maximizing my traction, i.e. I lean a bit of to the inside to lean less. I don't hang off on the street, but a cheek off the seat and the shoulder into the turn does wonders. For quick direction changes at somewhat less than max speed (for a given turn) pushing the bike under you may work just fine and possibly quicker. I chimed in because of the Supermoto picture - having just watched a couple of races this weekend - they seem to back it into most turns, including the really slow and tight ones, using the technique you describe (American Supercamp - right?). Henrik | ||
| Nevco1 |
Backing in on the dirt...No sweat. On the streets...relatively suicidal. Think I will leave that for the Pro's on the smooth and groomed asphalt tracks. | ||
| Madduck |
Luv this discussion. Being firmly in The "Indian" racing camp, the only reason the XR-750 has dominated the AMA GNC dirt track series for so long is that they and the AMA are the same company. Whenever serious competition shows up the ama re-writes ( "interprets" ) the rule book to advantage Harley. They are right in doing this as Harley has steadfastly supported them for generations. Without Harley and Harely riders attending, there would be no AMA dirt track series. Regardiing turning technique. Do not try this at home would be a good motto for this discussion. I was following a 78 yrs young ex dirt track racer home on a gravel road. He was on my K1200RS BMW and I was on the R1150GS. Watching him scrape the left side city case in a left hand corner is an experience. After the laughter and tears he pointed out I had scuffed the standard lids on the GS chasing him. My niece was suitable terrified watching the two of us. I would like to say that I won't be doing that again anytime soon but I would be lying. I would never attempt that sort of lean angle on the street. "AGAIN" | ||
| M2me |
For those who think the Supermoto rider in the picture above is "backing it in". Take notice of his rear tire shadow. Did he just finish sliding over the yellow tire on the inside of the track? Also notice the front wheel and the shadow. You can clearly see the details of the brake rotor. Either the photographer used a very fast shutter speed or the rider is moving relatively slowly. Contrast it to the photo above that Rocketman posted. The wheels in that photo are just a blur. I would guess that the rider who is shifting his weight to the outside is executing a slow, tight turn and not backing it in in a fast corner. | ||
| Henrik |
Thought we were discussing different riding techniques and not this specific supermoto picture.  No matter what this particular rider is doing and at what speed he's doing it: different techniques apply to different riding situations. 1) If you need max traction for max corner speed, pushing the bike down under you is not the way to do it. 2) If you need quick transition at lesser speed (thus needing less traction) pushing the bike down may be a good alternative. 3) if you're not very skilled and try the push down and/or slide technique at elevated speeds on the street, it is not unlikely that you will get hurt. Don't think I can make my point of view any clearer  Henrik | ||
| Nevco1 |
Henrick...Well said. Clear, concise, accurate and definitely to the point. Are you going to post a recap of your MX school or did I miss it elsewhere? The agenda and your impressions would make for great reading. | ||
| M2me |
But in the shot of the supermoto bike it is most likely going a bit faster than the drill teams For anything faster than parking lot speeds, I know *I* don't have the skills to get away with backing it in like that. I thought we were talking about the shot of the supermoto bike. What I am saying is that the rider is not going a bit faster than the drill teams. I am guessing that the rider is going slowly in a tight turn. The rider is not backing it in. I have seen that technique used on dirt tracks and I am also not skilled enough to try it! Also, other poeple have said they "wouldn't try that (backing it in) on pavement". Ummm, the rider in the picture is on pavement. Anyway, we already had this discussion last winter with charts and diagrams and mathematcial equations. The technique I am talking about (and S320002 too I think, but I can only speak for myself) is totally different than the "backing it in" technique that Dave Gess so accurately described. | ||
| Rocketman |
Except for one small point Henrik, racing bikes spend very little time upright which is why racing tyres are designed to give MAXIMUM traction whilst the bike is leant over. Rocket  | ||
| José_quiñones |
 Sitting on the "wrong side" works well in many different situations, Battletrax 360 degree U turns being one of them. | ||
| José_quiñones |
But back on the KTM taking a page out of the Buell playbook topic Sure, they say so themselves in their press release:
But unlike Buell, KTM will go World Superbike racing in 2005 and they will SELL WHAT THEY RACE and RACE WHAT THEY SELL.  And they make it look so good..... edited by josé_quiñones on October 27, 2003 | ||
| Henrik |
Bill; I did a bit of a recap on the GDM. Rocket: I know what you mean, but in this context you're wrong. José: sorry for hijacking the topic ... now back to your scheduled programming You're right - that quote could be right out of Erik's mass centralization rule book. And they make it look so good..... More a case of hiding it well it think. I like the KTM bikes and really like the motor they've built. But I also like the purposeful look of Buells. Henrik | ||
| S320002 |
I like the KTM bikes and really like the motor they've built. I like them too. But isn't the engine built by Rotax? | ||
| Henrik |
AFAIK their new twin is home brew and not a Rotax rental. Henrik | ||
| Bomber |
Rocket Race Tires ARE designed that way, yssir, but no tire design or witches brew poured into the mold will negate the fact that rider weight on TOP of the scoot will yield a slower rate at like lean angles than rider weight even with the sccot, or, better yet, inside or below the scoot . . . ya can't outrun Motorola, and ya can't fool physics (though lord knows I've tried both) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Henrik.. one more argument in your favor for leaning over a little to keep the bike a little more upright for a given turn at a given speed is suspension travel. I have had two minor lowsides. Number two was plain and simple target fixation (escape plan A executed perfectly, but another issue came up and there was no escape plan B, so bike more or less just slid 10 inches then fell over in a ditch.) But number one was from hitting a hidden road defect (a sinkhole in pavement with totally smooth edges that was in mottled sunlight). This "suckers" setup was invisible under speed. In fact even after the fact, when going back to see "what the hell happened", it took me about a minute of looking closely, standing there, to finally spot it (complete with a pair of front and rear tire skid marks leading out of it). What happened was that the M2 was at full "dragging a peg" lean, maybe 10 mph, and went right over the sinkhole. Sinkhole depth? 5 to 8 inches deep. Suspension travel at full lean? 1 inch on a good day. So a minor and invisible road defect lead to the bike being effectively airborne (one wheel at a time) at full lean. With the predictable outcome. At the risk of another "contact patch" discussion (though I could use a new team elves patch, and Court has not fined me in almost a year now), I will just say that the coefficient of static friction is MUCH higher then the coefficient of dynamic friction. In other words, a tire on the ground tends to stay stuck to the ground. A tire suddenly off the ground under the same conditions won't "re-stick". Had I had the body leaning more, and the bike leaning less, I would have had more suspension travel, and the tire might have tracked the road surface. Would it have been enough? Who knows, but it surely would not have been worse. So in a nutshell... more bike lean, less suspension travel... That being said, my Cyclone seems to do best if I lean way forward, and get my chin over whichever handgrip is on the inside of the turn. Rock solid stable, tons of ground clearance, fantastic controllability. When I lean way off to the inside, the handling of the bike gets all squirelly, and I of course just look silly. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Henrik...Thanks for directing me to your MX school report. Felt like I was there. Really enjoyed the quote about "Smaller Trophies." | ||
| Mfell2112 |
Yep that KTM motor is made and designed in house. KTM hired a Rotax engineer recently. Rumor has it that motor is like 50lbs lighter then the Priller 1000 Rotax motor. Mike | ||
| Henrik |
Bill; you're welcome "Small Trophies" became my reminder to myself when I goofed and spun the rear wheel. Yelled it out loud Just found the article I remembered about the KTM LC8 75° V-twin. It's oversquare with bore/stroke of 100 mm/60 mm and 942 cc displacement. 4 valves/cylinder and 11.5:1 compression ratio in their 950 Adventurer. 43 mm downdraft carbs and a stacked transmission. No mention of the weight, but because of the stacked tranny it's very short/compact. Henrik | ||
| José_quiñones |
The lead designer of the Aprilia/Rotax V60 engine is the same that designed the new KTM engine, Claus Holweg. READ all about it here | ||
| Rocketman |
So let me get this right - you guys are saying that due to the laws of physics a rider WILL travel around a corner SLOWER if he is sat ABOVE the lean angle than if he was IN LINE or BELOW the lean angle - all things being equal? Rocket | ||
| José_quiñones |
However, Aprilia has not sat idle with their own engine development.  | ||
| Tripper |
They should contract with Buell for a muffler system to smooth that torque curve.  | ||
| Bomber |
Rocket yessir | ||
| Henrik |
Rocket; I guess the point would be that you can carry less cornering speed by sitting on top of the bike. Of course, that doesn't mean that you get around the track slower, if backing it in means that you can get on the throttle earlier thus geting a better drive off the corner onto a straigh-away. Fast and fast are two different things ya' know Like this guy for instance - soooo cool: http://www.mahonkin.com/~kenzo/misc-temp/Gary_McCoy.wmv Henrik (who'll be off the radar for a couple of weeks) | ||
| Bads1 |
That is so cool Henrik.Good clip. | ||
| Rocketman |
Bouncing off the rev limiter in top gear hitting 150 at the end of a straight traveling clockwise heading into a 180 deg corner which of these forms will travel around the corner faster? 1. ) 2. ( 3. ^ Rocket | ||
| Blake |
"Anyone notice the positioning of the rider on the Supermoto? The bike is leaned in with rider's weight on the "wrong" side. Who was it that said said that couldn't work?" If you think you are referring to me, you might want to go back and re-read the pertinent discussion re. "Hanging Off the Wrong Side". JQ, "But unlike Buell, KTM will go World Superbike racing in 2005 and they will SELL WHAT THEY RACE and RACE WHAT THEY SELL. " When I see a KTM superbike for sale, one with the same bodywork, suspension, and engine as the race bike they field, I'll concede your point. There exists NO manufacturer that sells to the public, for street use, the same bike that they race in Superbike. Not one. Tilley's would be glad to build you one of their Buell Superbikes though. A Buell superbike is far more attainable by us mere mortals than any Japan Inc or Italian superbike. Pretty much exactly opposite of what you contend. |
