| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
Now that the XR1200 has been released over here in Europe, it is interesting to read the magazine reviews and the general attitude of the testers towards the bike compared to the Buell range. Unlike the recent tests of both the 1125R and the new Ulysses XT, which have been pretty unflattering, the testers are gushing in their praise of the new Harley. Every magazine test I have read so far rates the XR1200 is the best bike ever built in Milwaukee and some even go as far as to say it is the best bike to come out of the USA, ever! When you compare this to the litany of faults and relative condemnation for the 1125R you have to wonder what the future of the Buell brand will be in Europe at least. Harley executives are quoted in the various magazines as saying that the XR1200 has been built in response to demand from European riders for a sportier, more powerful bike, and have come up with the 90bhp XR1200 to satisfy this demand. Surely they only had to point customers to the back of their own showrooms where the Buells are kept in their dark damp corner in order to scratch this particular itch? Add this to the various rumours going around that: a. Someone in the H-D Empire (Buell?) objected so forcefully about the power of the XR1200 (They apparently wanted it restricted to 80bhp at the crank) that the launch was actually delayed. In the end the objections were overruled and the bike launched with the full 90bhp. Other rumours predict far worse for the future of the Buell/H-D relationship, with some mentioning deadlines for improvement before H-D cuts Buell loose. Whilst I know that rumours are almost never 100% true, I have found that many have at least a modicum of truth about them, and given the mothership's wholehearted support for the XR1200 it must surely be seen as a kick in the teeth for Erik? As an aside, there was a poll on the UK Buell Enthusiasts site a while back asking which bike the readers prefered, 1125 or XR1200? The XR1200 won by a landslide, and this was a poll of Buell owners! It may only be 90bhp, but the XR will sell in great numbers because of it's placement in the ever popular 'retro' roadster niche, and of course it will be in the front window of the H-D showrooms, not hidden at the back with the Buells  | ||
| Cyclonedon |
"Every magazine test I have read so far rates the XR1200 is the best bike ever built in Milwaukee" right there alone is one good reason why you shouldn't believe what the magazine writers say because they don't build them in Milwaukee to begin with! | ||
| Trojan |
they don't build them in Milwaukee to begin with! I think that is what they call 'journalistic licence'. Like saying that all Yamahas hail from Hammamatsu or Triumphs from Hinckley (ha ha). People associate Milwaukee with H-D, hence the press use it as a nice peg to hang any praise/vitriol on. | ||
| Madduck |
"What to do with Buell" is getting a fair amount of discussion at Harley. It actually matters now that Buell has produced some models that sell into some pretty interesting niche markets. As a profit center in the H-D machine it is pretty low on the totem pole. As a technical training ground/test center it rates pretty high. Most of the changes in the sportster powertrain werre developed in conjunction with Buell. With the belt tightening going on now I don't really think anyone can foretell Buells future with H-D. | ||
| Reepicheep |
LOL. If somebody from the Harley empire had complaints about the XR1200's power, it was probably related to soothing the ego of big twin owners. I doubt the XR1200 is much of a threat to my 9sx, much less the "big" Buells. If Erik lost any sleep over the XR1200, it was probably only related to "I have work to do, I hope they don't loot my resources and mess up my project plans fussing around trying to get that thing working right"... | ||
| Elvis |
Come on. Admit it. This was written many years ago about the V-Rod and you just changed all the mentions of "V-Rod" to XR1200.  The way I see it, there are three, broad motorcycle markets: On the two extremes are cruisers and sport bikes and somewhere in the middle theres a large "satandard" catagory. Buell has (largely because the Harley motor has prevented them from being a true "sportbike") generally fallen on the sporting side of the standard market. With the new engine, Buell is making the leap more strongly into the sport market (and becasue it is a leap, they've had some growing pains) Harley on the other hand is being compared to Harley rather than Ducati, so they have a very low bar. Harley is now spreading into the cruiser end of the standard market . . . but they won't go too far. They are very conscious of maintaining the "Harley Image". There may well be some customers who would have bought Buell in the past giving a serious look to the XR1200. If so, that's because Buell is moving away from those customers and toward the more sporting side side of their market. Buell can't be everything to everyone. Harley's future is Buell. Harley owns the cruiser market and, therefore, has limited potential growth in that market. At the same time they don't want to stray too far from that market with the Harley brand. But Harley/Buell sell very little in the true "sport" market. With the introduction of the 1125R, that will be changing. Keep in mind, Buell and Harley are planning models out 10 years in advance. The XR1200 didn't just suddenly pop out of nowhere. It has been part of a long-term strategic plan that was probably being drafted since before the introduction of the V-Rod. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
the new XR1200 will not be in my garage instead of the Buell, but next to it. Never trade in, just add too. As good as it is, its still a porker, and would benefit hugely from some of the lightening things we know Buell is an expert in. (five stars with ZTL braking for the biggest) And that exhaust is hideous. And last time I checked, the shift linkage was all kinds of erector set fragile. That needs a Stortz kit like nobody's business. But bring it to the states, I will take mine in Orange  | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
people are weird.... drop the Buell name and rebadge with HD and I bet Harley instantly gets a sales bump .... | ||
| Aesquire |
That bit about Buell leaning toward the sporting side of standard..... True. Firebolts & 1125R's are too sporty for an old fat guy that thinks 50 miles is a warm up.  I'm keeping the Cyclone. Period. But I can see getting a XR1200 as a second bike. ( we'll order the shifter bits together ) When I park at the local burger joint, it's usually right in between the chrome pond and the ninja pool. I talk to both sides of parking lot, and when I leave, ( if I have the Ti muffler on ) there is no doubt that "Sport" and "V-twin" is leaving. I suppose the chrome guys will call the XR1200 a girls bike. | ||
| Spatten1 |
people are weird.... drop the Buell name and rebadge with HD and I bet Harley instantly gets a sales bump .... Very good point. I suppose the chrome guys will call the XR1200 a girls bike. No doubt. There's one area the Euros are ahead of us. More weight does not mean a better motorcycle. Large shiny objects attract fish, kids, and Harley owners. | ||
| Teddagreek |
MCN TORE IT A NEW ASS... Quote :The main disappointment is that it’s finish and spec is pretty crude and the XR1200R looks like its engineering came out of a Polish shipyard  http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/bikereviews/sear chresults/Bike-Reviews/Harley-Davidson/Harley-Davi dson-XR1200R-2008-current/ | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"a. Someone in the H-D Empire (Buell?) objected so forcefully about the power of the XR1200 (They apparently wanted it restricted to 80bhp at the crank) that the launch was actually delayed. In the end the objections were overruled and the bike launched with the full 90bhp." Not true. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Apples to oranges. Buells 984cc engine has more power than this XR1200. I don't think that Buell has anything to worry about from this HD POS. And comparing it to the 1125r is an absolute joke. Totally different markets among many other factors. I couldn't really care less what European bike rags or Europeans in general say about any Buell. Generally, they are haters of anything American. And I still can't believe that Trojan gets ANY Badwebber business due to the all the shit talking...and high prices. | ||
| Trojan |
Apples to oranges. Buells 984cc engine has more power than this XR1200. I don't think that Buell has anything to worry about from this HD POS. And comparing it to the 1125r is an absolute joke. Totally different markets among many other factors. I couldn't really care less what European bike rags or Europeans in general say about any Buell. Generally, they are haters of anything American. And I still can't believe that Trojan gets ANY Badwebber business due to the all the shit talking...and high prices. Aahh Fresno, as objective as ever I see  If the mags are 'anti American' as you suggest, why has the XR1200 got such rave reviews (apart from some comments in MCN, although even that report was generally good)? Like it or not, Europe is the ONLY market where H-D sales are still expanding, and that is where they will focus their attention I'm sure. The XR1200 is there to attract people who wouldn't normally consider a Harley at all, and is in direct competition with the Triumph Thruxton, Guzzi, BMW R1200R and Yamaha MT01. Nobody is comparing it to the 1125R and I cannot imagine where you get that impression from. What you can compare though is the amount of effort and money that H-D is ploughing into promoting the XR in comparison to the 1125R or any of the Buell range for that matter. Take this month's Bike magazine. Not only does it have the ride test (2 pages) but it also has a full colour 8 page 'advertorial' on the XR1200. You have to look twice to realise that it is in fact an advert, paid for by H-D as it is written as if it is a road test, with quotes from most of the UK mags that have tested the bike so far. This kind of promotion is unheard of for Buell, and with the massive H-D resources it will be little wonder that this bike will be pushed at the public in a far higher profile manner than all of the Buell models put together. It will also take up the prime position in the showrooms, with H-D salesmen more keen to sell this than the Buell models that they frankly don't understand anyway. The question never was, 'Is this better than a Buell?' but 'Where does this lead to?'. If Harley want to attract a 'sporty' rider, then surely they already have the product on offer from Buell to fill that niche, so why launch a bike that, even if not in direct competition, will overlap and undoubtedly steal some sales from Buell. As for our prices Fresno, you need to speak to George W on that score. It isn't us that is nmaking the Dollar worth less on the world markest I'm afraid. By the way, your 984 Buell does not have more power than the XR1200 in stock form. Both are rated at 90bhp I believe, with the XR having more torque. | ||
| Rainman |
So is the XR1200 engine a Harley-design or based on Buell's work? Anybody know? | ||
| Glitch |
What you can compare though is the amount of effort and money that H-D is ploughing into promoting the XR in comparison to the 1125R or any of the Buell range for that matter. Take this month's Bike magazine. Not only does it have the ride test (2 pages) but it also has a full colour 8 page 'advertorial' on the XR1200. You have to look twice to realise that it is in fact an advert, paid for by H-D as it is written as if it is a road test, with quotes from most of the UK mags that have tested the bike so far. This kind of promotion is unheard of for Buell, and with the massive H-D resources it will be little wonder that this bike will be pushed at the public in a far higher profile manner than all of the Buell models put together. It will also take up the prime position in the showrooms, with H-D salesmen more keen to sell this than the Buell models that they frankly don't understand anyway. While sad in my eyes, this is hardly a surprise to anyone. It's always been this way ever since H-D took over Buell. Sad but true. The question never was, 'Is this better than a Buell?' but 'Where does this lead to?'. If Harley want to attract a 'sporty' rider, then surely they already have the product on offer from Buell to fill that niche, so why launch a bike that, even if not in direct competition, will overlap and undoubtedly steal some sales from Buell. While rarely admitted, H-D has always been in direct competition with Buell. Over here anyway, H-D dealerships can't stand to see a Buell ride up and need anything. It's like Buell has been forced on them. They are just now getting things sorted out by taking Buell away from the H-D dealerships that really don't want them or where "Buells don't sell here". As for our prices Fresno, you need to speak to George W on that score. It isn't us that is nmaking the Dollar worth less on the world markest I'm afraid. God save the Queen! You're alright in my Book Matt, and I will continue to point people in your direction for your unique Buell parts and advise. | ||
| Trojan |
I am pretty sure there is a huge amount of Buell input and work in the engine department, but H-D seem very reluctant to publicise or acknowledge this fact, even though Buell have far better credentials for high perfomance 'Sportster' based engines than H-D have in recent years. It should be a positive advertising ploy for them to emphasise the Buell input, not hide it, so that is another area that has me confused. What amuses me most, is that the XR1200 is being heavily advertised as being developed and descended from the XR750 dirt track bike (which it patently isn't of course), yet it is aimed at the European market where the XR750 never raced, very few people ever saw one and dirt track (short track) racing is only a very recent addition to our sporting calendar. I think it would have been better associated with the road racing variant of the XR750 that Cal Rayborn rode to victory in the 1972 Transatlantic Match Races. At least that machine was seen racing in Europe | ||
| Glitch |
I am pretty sure there is a huge amount of Buell input and work in the engine department, but H-D seem very reluctant to publicise or acknowledge this fact, even though Buell have far better credentials for high perfomance 'Sportster' based engines than H-D have in recent years. It should be a positive advertising ploy for them to emphasise the Buell input, not hide it, so that is another area that has me confused. It seems like they did indeed do this when they introduced the new Sportster. Don't remember which year, but it was the year they rubber mounted the engine. Why they don't with this one is beyond me, especially since Buell is held in higher regard in Europe. The Buell sales numbers over there still beat the sales numbers here. What amuses me most... Go figure... But they obviously know marketing better than I. H-D definitely know how to market. | ||
| Elvis |
Here's something to consider: In 2004, Buell's revenue was 79.0 million. In 2007 (a year in which Buell was re-tooling for the 1125R) their revenue was 100.5 million. In 2004, Harley's (bike) revenue was 3.9 billion and in 2007, it was 4.4 billion. So in that period, Buell grew 27% while Harley grew 13%. Now ask yourself: If you were on a board and a division of your company was growing at more than twice the rate of your core business, would you consider "cutting them loose" if they didn't start doing better? I suspect that Harley may have certain goals for Buell, and Buell may or may not be meeting those goals. If Buell isn't meeting those goals, maybe Harley should consider doing something to improve things - maybe invest in a racing program - but "cutting loose" a division that is your growth engine . . . and hasn't even begun reaping the rewards of the most exciting model they've ever made . . . is just crazy. But that crazy talk has been around for the past 10 years and likely will be around for the next 10 years. . . . maybe the XR1200 really represents Harley's recognition that they need to be more like Buell rather than vice-versa. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I dont know how many times I have stole an Electra Glide standard prospect and helped them to become a ULY Owner, saving them thousands of dollars and showing them the dirty off road side of our county. You walk in our store door, you are seeing the Buells. The XR1200 has its issues, the stuff that MCN didnt like is quick and easy to fix. the mirrors are the H-D stockers from every other model. The cables need to be braided and re-routed, the exhaust goes, the shifter linkage goes, the wheels should be Buell 5 stars with perimeter brake (on mine it will be) the annoying digital goes. Its like every other harley; purchase price plus 4k to get what you "WANT/CRAVE/NEED" | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
This would be a kickass bike to tinker with if they offer the aftermarket goods like what was done with Buell. | ||
| Xl1200r |
In 2004, Buell's revenue was 79.0 million. In 2007 (a year in which Buell was re-tooling for the 1125R) their revenue was 100.5 million. Keep in mind there's no need to mention that Buell was tooling for the 1125. Revenue is purely that - how much cash the company brought in, period. Now, profit is a different story because it takes into account expenses. If Buell sold $100 million worth of stuff, but it took them $105 million to do it, well, then that's not all that good... | ||
| 86129squids |
"I am pretty sure there is a huge amount of Buell input and work in the engine department, but H-D seem very reluctant to publicise or acknowledge this fact, even though Buell have far better credentials for high perfomance 'Sportster' based engines than H-D have in recent years. It should be a positive advertising ploy for them to emphasise the Buell input, not hide it, so that is another area that has me confused." +1!! This falls in line with the response I got when I asked Mr. Flickinger, with the VP of H-D sales standing next to him at TWO on the rainy Saturday this past March, if there were any plans to "cross-pollinate" Buell and H-D marketing to better identify one with the other. Flickinger flatly said "No, the two brands will remain separate." To me this doesn't make sense, especially if the dirtbike project is ever revived. H-D will always have its own distinctive identity, but Buell should be seen as the "performance" and certainly "sport" side of H-D. We have a <legendary> MC company that essentially has no product to offer entry-level riders, much less anything to offer kids growing up on dirtbikes. Brand loyalty begins as soon as kids recognize what a "toy" is. It just doesn't make sense, in the big picture, to ignore your future markets to preserve (embalm?) the old H-D marketing and imagery. Just for sh*ts and giggles, imagine a CVO XR1200RR, built with a modern day version of the FXR frame (surely the jigs are still around, run them with super-light tubing to build the frame), late-model Buell performance parts throughout, conspicuous use of the Pegasus logo, and a cool graphic on parts of the bike that basically says "Harley-Davidson Racing, By Buell". We'd see if the "C" in Custom Vehicle Operations really stands for "custom" or just "chrome". "I dont know how many times I have stole an Electra Glide standard prospect and helped them to become a ULY Owner, saving them thousands of dollars and showing them the dirty off road side of our county. You walk in our store door, you are seeing the Buells." You go, man!! I do the same thing when I can- tell folks the Uly can carry MORE junk in its bags than even the Ultra (more cubic volume!) "Screw It, Let's Ride A BUELL" | ||
| Mikej |
..... (Message edited by mikej on May 29, 2008) | ||
| Elvis |
Keep in mind there's no need to mention that Buell was tooling for the 1125. Revenue is purely that - how much cash the company brought in, period. The reason I mentioned it is that the re-tooling likely shut down production and required a lot of man hours that otherwise would have been spent making bikes (and for a company as small as Buell, that makes a big difference). If they hadn't been re-tooling, and setting up to run the the 1125R's, their revenue likely would have been a good bit higher than it was. I'm expecting to see some pretty big jumps in 2008 and 2009 as the 1125R really gets going. By 2009, I wouldn't be surprised to see Buell's growth at three or four times Harley's growth instead of just twice. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I did the factory tour at Homecoming last year I didn't see anything being "made". It was all assembly. The only re-tooling would be changing one box of parts for another box of parts. | ||
| Elvis |
Wolf, Respectfully, I think you'd find - if it was your job to get a completely new bike up and running - it's a lot more difficult than that. There are A LOT of parts in a bike like this and assembling it as quickly and efficiently as possible requires detailed work, planning and specialized tools. There are trays that hold parts that need to be re-designed, there are fixtures used to hold parts in place while they're being fastened that need to be re-designed. Workers need to be trained on assembling the new parts and as they work through the assembly, glitches and time consuming procedures need to be re-thought and streamlined and in many cases new devices need to be invented to make the job easier. Just because they aren't molding or cutting metal doesn't mean they don't need to develop complex tooling and procedures to get the job done properly. And as all that is happening, suppliers are having difficulty getting their new processes up and running, so the line gets shut down while they wait for more parts . . . and when the parts come in, they don't work or fit the way they were supposed to, so they need to be re-worked. . . It's a safe bet that a good chunk of production during the last quarter of 2007 was lost due to working out problems and getting the 1125R up and running. (Message edited by elvis on May 29, 2008) | ||
| Teddagreek |
I'm not a late Model Harely fan but here is another turd they can keep... At 551Lb and barely any suspension adjustability I'd walk right by to a buell For a European it's probably a good deal seeing how America's goods and travel are on sale for time being. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Buell didn't stop making the rest of their lineup while tooling up for the 1125. If you ever visit the factory you'll see just how small of an operation Buell is, especially for a company doing 100 million a year in revenue. I'm glad HD bought Buell and I hope they dont divest themselves of it but I think Ducati, on the surface, is a better fit for HD. Ducati ,although makers of very capable bikes, is a boutique brand that carries with it a measure of mystique and heritage similar to HD. However, in a real world working environment, two companies with huge egos might not fit at all. HD is form over function Buell is function over form (Message edited by ferris_von_bueller on May 29, 2008) | ||
| Sarodude |
Man, I don't get why it always has to be one thing over another. There are folks whose fire is lit by an XR1200. I count myself among them. There are also folks whose fire is lit by various Buells, garden variety UJMs, older airhead BMW's, and homemade bread. I count myself in those latter groups, too. Can't a bike just be cool, neat, fun, and desireable to SOMEBODY without having to completely outperform everything else in every way? The comment about no entry level bikes.... I think Harley needs a new model line. Something like the Blast but with Harley styling, etc. Aside from getting a significantly lower seat than a Sporty, that bike could also appeal to a Harley riding commuter - since a 600cc long strong 1/2 Sporty motor would likely do nicely in that department while still being a Harley, making Harley-esque noises, looking cool, etc. Price might not make sense, but that's why I don't build production bikes for a living. -Saro |
