| Author | Message | ||
     Xcephasx |
so my xb12x has been throwing an error code and the cooling fan has been "wheezing" (spinning up to speed, then hesitating/sounding horrible) i figured i would take it in to lvhd to get checked out before a ride into southern utah this weekend. $56.00 later the service writer told me that the tech said that my "aftermarket ECM" had to be replaced because it was sending "high voltage" to the exhaust fan, and that's why the fan wasn't working right. they asked me if i wanted them to replace the ECM. i told them that i really doubted that my ECM was bricked, and that there are known issues with the fans. he gave me a blank stare, i told him i would be back. yeah right. i went to radioshack and bought some "tv-knob cleaner/lubricant" and sprayed it up into the fan. guess what, problem solved. i just wonder where the heck they hire these guys. im sure they would have loved to sell me a 200$ ecm, charge me hours of labor and so forth. is it standard practice for these guys to find and condemn any aftermarket component to weasal their way out of doing warranty repairs? i just bought a fan on e-bay for 25 bucks. when mine finally croaks, i guess i will put it in myself despite paying almost 800 for the extended warranty. just had to vent a little bit. | ||
| Glitch |
is it standard practice for these guys to find and condemn any aftermarket component to weasal their way out of doing warranty repairs? You're actually lucky they didn't void the warranty. Weaseling out? Not the way I see it, read your warranty and see what it says about using after-market products. | ||
| Thumper74 |
Can void the warranty for aftermarket parts.... Magnuson-Moss Act. | ||
| Court |
The most likely outcome of changing ECM's is problems. When you change the ECM . . . well, you become the proud new owner of the benefits, problems and consequences thereafter. I watch, although I confess I don't understand, this ECM Spy thingie and am curious to see what happens a couple years down the road. TONS of engineering, and yes that have federal constraints, goes into optimizing the factory ECM. The good news is that bikes, like cars, now record about everything which has eliminated the slapping the stock ECM back in, going to the dealer and claiming "no, I've never changed it". Changing the ECM would waive any relief under Magnuson-Moss which has far less sweeping impact than urban legend and the internet might lead you to believe. If curious, simply read the law and some of the resulting decisions. It's designed to protect the consumer not provide him immunity from his own foolish acts. | ||
| Andrejs2112 |
Maybe you should have gotten a chrome ecm.  When I took my bike in and they looked at my fan they said that "it just needed to be oiled or something". I guess it's easier than actually looking into the problem and doing the right thing. I should also add that I have heard about a lots of dealers that have warranteed fans before they actually quit. Mine sounds like a stone is rattling around in there. Not all dealers are bad. It's just the ones close to me . (Message edited by andrejs2112 on April 15, 2008) | ||
| Glitch |
The good news is that bikes, like cars, now record about everything which has eliminated the slapping the stock ECM back in, going to the dealer and claiming "no, I've never changed it". So, you're saying the Buell ECM is recording the actions such as install & uninstall information? | ||
| New12r |
Did anyone else notice the tech failed to address a COMMON FAILURE.... ECM change or not that will not tell the fan to squeal. Hey Court, where do I find all this magically recorded info on the ecm??? Where in that little itty bitty ecm do they store years of data??? I have a factory Honda scanner and that info is not in there to the best of my knowledge. | ||
| Thumper74 |
Court, you're right, it's designed to protect consumers. However they can't void a complete warranty. They can deny individual claims if the failure was directly related to the application of the aftermarket/performance part. If I have a new Mustang Cobra and upgrade the supercharger, ECM, complete exhaust, etc they couldn't deny coverage on something completely unrelated... Such as a A/C knob. They could deny failure to the bottom end of the motor if the failure was attributed to the addition of the performance part | ||
| Sgthigg |
They dont. | ||
| Mikej |
There is much coming, not all of it with friendly intentions, but not all with less than friendly intentions either. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Didn't you hand the the tech the rewritten service and diagnostic manual for your reprogrammed ECM? ;)
That is correct, you can't void the warranty simply for using aftermarket parts. The warranty is only voided for the damage caused by those aftermarket parts. The dealer (and to some degree the factory) holds all the cards here, they can cover the repair, costing you nothing, or they can not cover the repair, costing you $X to fix it. If they are wrong or lying about the origin of the damage, you can pursue it in litigation, where you will spend about $1000 for every $100 you recover. Note that a bad dealer can pull this same BS even if you haven't touched anything on the bike. Again, you can "win" in the long run if you fight it, if you consider $1000's in legal fees an acceptable alternative to $100's in repair costs. I haven't gotten / built one yet, but I like that the ECMSpy can let me do a TPS reset, and that it can data log (just for fun). Having hacked and tweaked all sorts of stuff (you should see the inside of my Garmins, my CVS camcorders, some thinkpads, my Saab and Toyota stereo head units, my KLR-250, etc). The second the knife comes out, I know the future of the unit is now in my hands, not the manufacturers. This has often gone very well, and sometimes gone exceptionally badly. Life's an adventure. My 9sx just runs too nicely to start messing with the ECM beyond a TPS reset. But I enjoy reading about other peoples adventures in electronic entropy  I have a bricked CVS cam corder on my workbench... anyone want to buy it for half price? Think CVS will take it back? ;) I'm not saying don't mod, just know what you are getting into and HTFU about it And build good relationship with a dealer who is already proven to be good... Driving an extra few hundred miles to save $500 on the purchase price may be a false economy. I drove an extra 80 miles to pay $700 more... but to go to a dealer with a prooven track record of stocking parts and strong support. But I digress Good fix, and thanks for the info! Let us know how it holds up. My experience with CPU fans has been that I have been able to make short term recoveries by lubricating / cleaning, but they fail again on pretty short order. Good plan getting the replacement ebay fan. | ||
| Lost_in_ohio |
Here is a thought....Put the stock ecm in and take it back to the dealer for your free, after 50 deductible, replacement stock ecm and when that doesn't fix it they can replace the fan. Thats why I kept my stock parts. If it goes in for anything major all of the stock stuff goes back in. | ||
| Typeone |
not sure why its being assumed that Xcephasx has installed an aftermarket ECM or that he has used ECMSpy to alter his ECM. i see no mention of either mods in his profile. these Geniuses seem to be finding their way into every type of vehicle service shop i need to deal with. so Xcephasx, whats the ECM situation in your bike? stock without modification? curious.. . | ||
| Slaughter |
It all falls onto the relationship between the rider and the dealer. IF the dealer "needs an excuse" to NOT cover some work, they can probably claim that because the owner installed a fender eliminator, the engine is not covered. Then as others have stated, it falls to the owner to fight it. Heck, I'd destroyed my top end on my XB during a "false neutral" and a panic double downshift going into turn 1 at Willow Springs. Friends who had experience with other dealers told me I was screwed - until I talked to Glendale HD/Buell (where I originally bought it) and they handled it under warranty. HECK, Glendale was out at the track that day so bluffing was out of the question. Pleasant surprise. Of course, I've done some huge mods since then and have broken lots of stuff since getting clear title/paying it off. On a kinda/sorta related issue: For my streetbike, I also keep my stock parts in a box because of the rumors here in CA that in next couple years, we're going to be starting smog testing. Supposedly this will include a parts checklist (Intake, exhaust, module, fuel/oil vapor recovery). Figure that even if I don't need the parts, the "next owner" might. (Message edited by slaughter on April 15, 2008) | ||
| Court |
>>>>So, you're saying the Buell ECM is recording the actions such as install & uninstall information? No idea what Buell does. My Mercedes-Benz wrench, however, can tell me how fast I drove to the shop and the current PWIS can give you a "Over Rev" report as well as set the limits on the electric windows. It's a new world . . . .  | ||
| Ratyson |
The buell ecm does not have capacity for logging information in itself. You can connect a pc/palm/whatnot DURING a ride to log information. But that is the only way to do it at this time. Changing out a stock ecm for a modded ecm, then doing a TPS reset would be completely invisible to the servicing dealer. As has been said, doing any kind of mods to your warranty covered bike can, and usually does give the dealer an excuse to not cover warranty work. Regardless of the mod. However, the cost of fighting that battle is restrictively high for most of us folks. Right or wrong, this is how life works. | ||
| Mikej |
I now have this mental image of some techie playing practical jokes at big Porsche gatherings by setting various car windows to only close halfway and to do so very slowly. I think it's sort of funny to see some sportbikers frantically tapping their speedometer computer controls to delete the average and highest recorded speeds when they get pulled over for speeding before the officer walks up to ask for license and registration | ||
| Court |
>>>I now have this mental image of some techie playing practical jokes at big Porsche gatherings by setting various car windows to only close halfway and to do so very slowly. Don't laugh . . . the current Porsche equivalent of our 1125R battery is the windows that go all the way up and then drop about 2". How'd you like to pay $134,000 for a car who's windows don't close! No one in this world is left with nothing to gripe about. | ||
| Xcephasx |
Wow. Didn't quite expect this reaction. Anyways I have the odie pipe and sent my ecm off to al to be remapped. I'm pretty sure that there's nothing in the map that tells the bearings in my fan to be codgered. Replacing my "aftermarket ecm" to fix a broken fan would do about as much good as replacing my aftermarket mirrors. I would not expect them to fix a lean/rich condition/i blew up my engine, etc under warranty if I had a tweaked ECM. That would be unreasonable. What is not unreasonable is expecting the tech to listen to the fan and replace it, like the rest of the 06 uly fans that have crapped out. New12r hit the nail on the head. | ||
| Glitch |
Didn't quite expect this reaction. No one ever does.  New12r hit the nail on the head. Uncle Charlie is pretty good with the ol' hammer. | ||
| New12r |
Piss poor techs are the reason I am going broke. Customers have lost faith in the service industry and would rather "take on a new payment" than fix the turd they are driving. why dont they fix the car you ask, cuz too many dipshits like this loser "think" they know what is going on, or would rather just shove you off so he can hang some ••••••• chrome( aka Gravy Money). Dont even get me started on people who will tell you half truths to make you feel as if YOU did something wrong. | ||
| Rah7777777 |
Being a tech for Mercedes, I can say first hand there are a good number of crappy techs out there. But on the other side of the coin, there are a good number of good techs out there! One of the reasons I do not like my job is that its pay system, like most all shops is a type of commission (flag hours) which makes you work fast to make a damn penny! The crappy techs will throw fast parts at the car instead of actually diagnosing the problem and when it doesnt fix it, some will still try and stiff the client! I don't, but in return I don't make as much money as a good amount of the techs (which is why I hate that job, b/c I don't make no money!!) Then you get to throw in warranty, who really screws the clients over and really really screws the techs over! anyhow, not to rant about how I hate my day job.... I agree swap back to the stock parts and take it in. they will never know the difference! There are computers out there that can tell you all the logs of the ECM, but normally it gets overlooked! at least at my work. we can pull all kinds of info out of a car, but rarely actually go in and see how fast they drove to the shop, or how many times they hit the rev limiter. unless there is a lawsuit involved, then we pull everything! anyhow, i'm done :-) | ||
| Warlizard |
Just had an issue w/ my local dealer. I was having the NRHS pushrod bases installed while getting the rocker gaskets done,as well as other items. My total labor bill was 900.00$. I also had 5K service done. I pick up bike and less than a mile from the shop, oil is everywhere. Pouring out of the pushrod bases. You could clearly see parts of the gasket hanging out. I bring it back to the dealer and what is their reply? You w/ think an apology was in order. Not from our good friends at Harley. Apparently it was my fault for having the audacity to purchase aftermarket parts. Well it cost me another 100.00 to fix, they were so kind in splitting the additional labor charge w/ me. Hah!. Please. I pointed out the crooked gasket and I was told that the gasket was faulty and had I used HD parts, this wouldn't have happened! Why wasn't the bike road tested??? Last time I checked a road test was part of a 5K service? They could have discovered the leak, not wasted my entire afternoon and kept my bike from being covered in oil! This is after I picked up bike from winter storage to discover my battery was hanging 4 inches out of the tray. I borrowed some tools and fixed that myself. I was looking over the list of items associated w/ the 5K service and I doubt they even did half of them. I also love how they manage to add a few scratches every time they touch it. If I were on a 20K Softail this wouldn't be happening. I do believe I am completely thru w/ Harley. They can't stand us, can't fix our bikes and basically treat us like a burden. Buell will never be what it could be as long as HD is in the mix. I will now be going to the Sportbike dealer for service. My friends who go there for their Duc's have NEVER had a problem. I have one EVERY TIME I go to HD. I am lucky if it's just scratches. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Perhaps someone here can explain to me how 12V from a remapped ECU is different from 12V coming from the stock ECU? | ||
| Pwnzor |
Perhaps someone here can explain to me how 12V from a remapped ECU is different from 12V coming from the stock ECU? For that explanation you would have to visit your local Harley dealer. | ||
| Patrickmitchell |
One of my partners was in a recent car accident. The incident involved serious injury to the "other" guy (his fault fortunately for my partner). The police plugged a laptop into his truck's (GMC) ECM. They downloaded data for his entire day's driving history. If gave speed, brake, and airbag data. In this case he was honest with the cops and the data recording backed him up. I don't know how this works, or doesn't, for bikes. The message here is by honest.... Big Brother is watching. | ||
| Reepicheep |
My understanding is that the ECM can do lots of different things to the fan, including telling it which way to spin. And I know mine has at least two speeds. | ||
| Id073897 |
My understanding is that the ECM can do lots of different things to the fan, including telling it which way to spin. IMO this never left the state of planning. The ECM switches the "hot wire" coming from the fan to ground, with variable duty cycle. Thus it's very interesting, how the "aftermarket ECM" could have destroyed a fan - in worst case it would have been 12V (from the ECM) against 12V (from the supply voltage) and nothing would have moved :-) This shows, that some people who should know better, don't do it at all. I assume the ECM is some kind of general purpose device with more features than required, which could thnen be switched on or off (via EEPROM configuration) according to customer order. Just like the pin for the airbox pressure sensor input (which never made it into a Buell), that now triggers the muffler valve. Regards, Gunter |
