| Author |
Message |
    
Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 11:57 pm: | 
|
I concede. Dyna,I owe you a Pepsi, next time we meet. Unlike some people who make bets on this board, I won't try to sleeze out.
It was fun meeting you, as well as everybody else at the 20th. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 11:59 pm: |
|
Rods, bearings, and pistons are shared on Xl200 and XB12, The cylinder head for the 1200 is essentially the same as the XB9/12 (including valves, valve springs, etc.) except for some cosmetic differences
note how Harley styling changed the cases on the left-hand side so the screw bosses are on the outside of the cases, rather than internal; they wanted a little more surface detail than on the XB powerplant.
Perhaps you didnt read the entire writeup Steve wrote??
Note how Harley "styling" changed the cases.
Damn Blake it really pisses you off when Im right doesnt it? Obviously we know the sporty is carbed while the XB is injected...psst by the way if the Harley tank wasnt in the way the XB injection will bolt right up to it.
And different exhaust?? Well no shit. Geez you really are reaching. Sorry but I told Crusty exactly what Steve wrote & he agrees.
PS.....Erik is quite pleased with the way Buell racing is going & the direction the ama is headed. He was at our dinner tonite & spoke at length on a number of subjects.
|
Dynarider
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 12:02 am: |
|
Damn crusty...you posted while I was typing.
It was great meeting you...hell of a guy you are. Still cant believe you actually got that Buell tattoo. Cant wait to meet & ride with you again. It was super. I really want to get out east for an ATC ride, hopefully next time.
Have a safe ride home, let me know when you get there. |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 01:18 am: |
|
I think we're counting angels on pins here. The two engines are different in the sense that they're not interchangeable (you couldn't put an XB engine in an XL chassis and vice versa), and they're more than somewhat similar in that they share a large number of components. For racing, the AMA would rule them different on the basis of the crankcase castings, probably the most expensive parts to tool on any motorcycle engine. But they're obviously of the same engine family, made on the same tooling and assembled on the same production line. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 01:49 am: |
|
Once again i thank you Steve. If ever we meet I owe you lunch.
Its always ben quite apparent from the very begiining that you obviously werent going to take a Buell XB motor & simply slap it in a sporty frame without some modifications.
I will be up at captiol drive for the tour in a couple days, drive by all the time & usually do 1 tour a year to see whats new.
They even changed a few things at the Buell plant since last year. Getting more modern every year. |
Country
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 01:12 pm: |
|
First thing I would do is put on a new exhaust and a new air filter to get more horsepower. I mean come on 70hp is just not enough. I do like the idea of rubber mounted motor. Just needs more power. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 08:02 pm: |
|
70 hp on a sporty is actually pretty damn good..sure it can always be a lot better & will be ez enuff to get too.
I have ridden my buddies 1200 sporty with 87 rwhp & that thing is a riot. Shakes a bit too much for me tho. Anything over 70 mph & I end up wanting to puke. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 03:27 am: |
|
New cycle world is out & it has a writeup on the sporties along with pics. Says in the article its a dressed up XB motor. Same guts built on the same line with the XB's. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 08:38 am: |
|
Read the article last night. That's not what I recall the article saying. I recall something along the lines of "based on the XB motor with different internals" not "a dressed up XB motor". |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 12:44 pm: |
|
From the CW article -- at least the version submitted:
"The 2004 Sportsters share only a handful of components with their predecessors, and are equipped with an all-new, Buell-influenced engine and a new chassis. The new engine in many ways repackages Buell XB internal components into new cases with traditional Sportster looks. “Every internal component of the engine aside from transmission shafts and gears has been analyzed and updated,” says Chris Bernauer, H-D Powertrain manager for Sportster and Buell new product. “For performance, the ports, valves and valve springs and chambers are the same as Buell XB – the 1200 Sportster and Buell XB Heads are mechanically interchangeable.”
...
The new engines retain obvious historic Sportster characteristics, from individual push-rod tubes to four individual camshafts. The gears that drive these are no longer select-fitted, and are instead the same, quieter, high-contact ratio design that were introduced across the Sportster line in 2000. Cam rotation is in the conventional direction, unlike that of the Buell XBs and Blast. Displacements are also historic as well, Harley product planning forgoing any opportunity to create a range consisting of, say, a 984 and 1350 Sportster. According to Davidson, “We could get performance while maintaining displacement, and there’s a lot of equity in the 1200 and 883 names – most owners refer to their bikes as an “883” or a “1200” before they refer to it as a Sportster.” Both 883s and 1200s share the same bore and respective stroke lengths of their immediate predecessors. And as on previous Sportster engines, the oil filter also mounts in its conventional location, filling the visual space of the long-departed generator. There’s still a timing cover on the side of the cam case, even though the new, fully-mapped electronic ignition system now uses only a crank-position sensor for timing. Perhaps the empty chamber underneath will find other uses, and the timing cover will eventually be renamed the “stash lid”. |
Blastin
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 01:33 pm: |
|
A Buell influenced Sportster engine- Now ya GOTTA love that!!!!!!!!!!!
Go Buell!!!!!!!! |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 03:52 pm: |
|
My apologies Dyna, sounds like your memory was closer then mine.
|
Crusty
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 06:39 pm: |
|
All I know is I lost the bet. My (Anonymous)sources told me that the engines were totally different. Good thing I didn't bet heavy. Oh, and Dyna, I'll give you a real Pepsi; none of that phony Diet Pepsi crap. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 08:27 pm: |
|
LOL...
I look at the engine deal this way. Its all XB internals...oh wait cams are different..big deal...so its an XB.
If you take all the coke out of a coke machine & put it into a pepsi machine its still coke. Just cause the outside looks different doesnt mean squat.
Now I dont really understand why Harley felt the need to "style" the motor & make it look like the old XL's. I prefer the look of the XB motor, its much cleaner. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 09:15 pm: |
|
Everything internal is the same? How do they come up with different compression ratios? Are the flywheels the same? I don't know.
Doesn't the Buell version pump out a meager 40%+ more horsepower?
Peel an apple and wrap it in orange peel; take a bite. Is it still an apple?  |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 09:34 pm: |
|
They say all internals are the same. Heads, pistons, flywheels, rods, etc. I would imagine its getting less hp in the sporty due to the carburetion & the cams.
The motors are built on the same line & share all their parts. Will be visiting the factory on friday...should be very interesting. |
Nevco1
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 09:37 pm: |
|
Hi Guys...Check www.motorcyclecruiser.com for the information you are looking for. Apparently, Erik's airbox is the major factor in the horsepower difference. |
José_quińones
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 10:19 pm: |
|
quote:Doesn't the Buell version pump out a meager 40%+ more horsepower?
That's because the Buell versions are designed to work, while the Sporty versions are designed to look good.
Like I predicted way way back when.... |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 11:32 pm: |
|
Nevco,
Make sure to trust a cruiser magazine on power.
Could it be the higher compression pistons, the optimized high output cams, the staggered exhaust pipes, the active triple chamber muffler, the 49mm downdraft throttle body, the totally different intake manifold with targeted injectors, the new DDFI engine control unit, the large pushrod housings that help the breathing, the rocker box breather valves that help the breathing at high RPM, the lighter crankshaft, the compensated clutch that allows more agressive firing without vibration, the oversize oil cooler and aluminum swingarm oil tank to keep the oil cool, the cooling fan that keeps the oil fresh to make the engine last at high output or the fact that all of those pices were designed and optimized to work together...so optimized that the bike meets '04CA and EuroII without any secondary exhaust treatment?
Naah, it's the airbox. Just put on an S&S air filter and some straight pipes and she'll be right up there with an XB12... |
Phillyblast
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 11:45 pm: |
|
Naah, it's the airbox. Just put on an S&S air filter and some straight pipes and she'll be right up there with an XB12...
ROFLMAO
Let's face it guys - Buell hit the ball waaaaaay out of the ballpark with the new bikes. Man, I love my S2, but the XB12* is just amazing. I never even considered that the _pushrod tubes_ were a factor. That's attention to detail, IMHO} |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 11:48 pm: |
|
Just to get this straight: It looks like the XB12s pump out more than 50 percent more horsepower. The Sportster 1200 tested by CW put out 60 hp at the rear wheel; all dyno numbers I've seen to date for the XB12s are between 90 and 99 horsepower. And the XB12s run smoother; there's more noticeable vibration on the new Sportsters, which may indicate not all rubber-mount systems are created equal.
The Sportster is powered by an engine that is a family member to the XBs, but it's not the same engine. Sorta like comparing the latest Corvette small-block to some of the wimpier small-block derivatives. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 06:15 am: |
|
All right,then. Steve, I'm asking you for a judgment call. Who won the bet, me or Dyna? |
Mikej
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 09:03 am: |
|
"Now I dont really understand why Harley felt the need to "style" the motor & make it look like the old XL's. "
"Ours is not to question why,
ours is but to buy and ride." |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 09:57 am: |
|
Crusty, it's all a matter of definition; you could argue it either way. Dyna's right if he meant the new Sportster would be powered by a Buell-related engine that shared a lot of parts; you're right in that it's not the same engine with a few minor differences. There are more substantial differences between these than ever -- case castings, flywheels, ignition systems, oil filters, side covers, intake system, cam rotation, etc. But it's still made on the same production line. Buell and Sportster engines have been growing further apart ever since the S2, and this is one more step down that road. It's not the last. |
Nevco1
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:02 am: |
|
Anon...Yep, looks like I missed a lot. Was so fascinated by Erik's excitement over the airbox story at the 20th banquet that I skipped over the rest. Looks like Art Friedman did too. LOL
|
Steve_a
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 01:06 pm: |
|
Make sure to trust a cruiser magazine on power
-- ANON
"Both 1200s have the same engine, which makes about 15 percent more power than last year's standard 1200 mill. The new 1200 engine gets hotter cams taken from the Buell XB engine, although at 70 horsepower the Sportster engine makes less power than the similar engine in the Buell, largely because the Buell sucks through a much larger airbox (which the sportbike can use because styling convention isn't such an issue). Unlike the 2003 Sportster 1200 Sport engine, the new one does not have dual spark plugs because the new combustion-chamber design does not require them to inhibit detonation. The compression ratio is 9.7:1. Lighter pistons, rods and valve-train components allow the 1200 to rev 500 rpm faster to 6000 rpm. The 883 has a much milder power gain, a modest 2 horsepower, giving it a claimed 53 horsepower." -- Motorcycle Cruiser}}
Well, Anon is right here. The Sportsters do not use XB cams, but use the old Sportster Sport grind. The new 1200 engine doesn't seem to make significantly more power than a Sportster Sport, and with the extra weight, the bike is slower than a Sportster Sport, despite shorter gearing.
|
Jssport
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 02:09 pm: |
|
It's my understanding that the XB and the new XL's both use the "W" cam profiles that came on the sportster sport model. |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 05:41 pm: |
|
Uh, the BLAST uses the W cam. My understanding is that the XBs have a unique grind.
-Saro |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 07:23 pm: |
|
Uh, the BLAST uses the W cam. My understanding is that the XBs have a unique grind.
Correct. The XB cam, used both on 984 and 1200, has a lot more duration and overlap than Sportster Sport -- which had less overlap than the 1200 Sportster cam it replaced, but steeper ramps. (Ever notice how a Sportster Sport has a smoother 1000 rpm idle than a standard Sportster? The cam is why.) The XB cam was developed specifically for the XB engine, and was designed with the new valve train to keep the valves under control to somewhere around 8000 rpm. Similar grinds to XB were tried during Blast development, but "taste testing" led to a decision to go with a low overlap cam with more torque down low, and less power up high.
|
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 08:18 pm: |
|
So its a tie? |
Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 08:56 pm: |
|
Hey Dyna; next time we meet, we can buy each other a Pepsi. We both won; or we both lost or something. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 09:25 pm: |
|
What was the original bet? If it was based upon them being the "same engine", then I think Crusty wins, cause they are not the same engine. If it was based on them being "completely different engines" then Dyna wins, cause they are not completely different engines.
Here's my ruling...
Crusty must drink Pepsi while spectating at next year's Loudon classic during the FUSA Sportbike race. |
Ray_maines
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:34 pm: |
|
But it has to be Diet Pepsi and Dyna has to put up up the first 40 cents to buy the can. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:13 pm: |
|
Crusty wont do Diet
Besides that screw the bet, I was just glad to meet Crusty & hang out with him for a few days. Super cool guy. I hope to hook up with him next year at Laconia. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 09:50 pm: |
|
quote:Here's my ruling...
Crusty must drink Pepsi while spectating at next year's Loudon classic during the FUSA Sportbike race.
Let me see if I've got this straight - I'm to be rewarded for being partly right about the new Sportster engine by getting a Pepsi; while at the same time I'm to be punished for being partly wrong about the new Sportster engine by having to watch a minor league series race that's profiting a promoter with a documented history of blatantly disregarding racer's safety. |
M2me
| | Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 11:00 pm: |
|
Here's my suggestion: Everybody meets at Hooter's, orders Pepsi and splits the bill!
Here is an interesting quote from the Cycle World article:
quote:Cases, heads, cylinders and valvetrain are new for the XL, but based on the current Buell XB engine.
The new Sporty engine is different but it is based on the current Buell XB engine! I've noticed that area around the starter even has the weird curve like the XB engines. |
Jssport
| | Posted on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 11:37 am: |
|
Hmmm,.. my info says the stock xl cams have 4 degrees of overlap while the "W" cams have 19.
Steve says:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Correct. The XB cam, used both on 984 and 1200, has a lot more duration and overlap than Sportster Sport -- which had less overlap than the 1200 Sportster cam it replaced, but steeper ramps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 01:34 pm: |
|
Jssport -- I could be wrong about that; that was from my memory of the Sportster Sport intro. I couldn't find "W" or XB cam specs on the net, but here are some other Sportster/Buell camshafts.
From Andrews:
stock "D" cams timing 02/41 41/02 223 degrees duration, .458 inch lift.
Andrews N4 (same as Buell Thunderstorm) 52/24 24/52 256 degrees duration, .490 lift
|
Crusty
| | Posted on Sunday, August 31, 2003 - 02:19 pm: |
|
quote:Everybody meets at Hooter's, orders Pepsi and splits the bill!
That sounds good to me!
|
|
