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Spank
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 12:57 pm: | 
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Hey Bikertrash05 and Mikej,
Make sure you check the pumps when at Kwik Trip stations outside the reformulated counties. The 87 octane is the only grade NOT reformulated. Noticed the sticker on the pump in Mayville so I asked the manager. |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 01:30 pm: |
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You know what happened to me once in Alabama? I pumped 5 3/4 gallons of gas in my 5 gallon tank. When I complained to the girl working the counter, she all of a sudden couldn't speak english, which was odd because she was white, blue-eyed and weighed 300lbs and in a rural community. She sure as hell wasn't Swedish.
I called the number to some certification department of the State of Alabama on the gas pump and complained about the calibration. I never heard back from them.
I think this happens more than we realize. |
Teeps
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 02:20 pm: |
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Chevron W/Techron
Mobil
Union 76
Shell, if that's all there is... |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 04:29 pm: |
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Ok guys, I was interested, so I sent out some feelers. I asked about the single hose systems from several pump manufacturers and sales companies.
Here's one of them:
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Subject: Odd Question
I am hoping you can help. I am a moderator and member on several motorcycle enthusiast boards. The topic of fuel pumps comes up often. The concern is with “single hose” pumps. The fear is that when using a single hose system you only receive a portion of the fuel grade that you desire. When you select a particular grade, is there a credible risk of receiving a different grade due to passive fuel from the last user remaining in the pump hose?
Any light you can shed on this subject would be great. Additional regulatory citings would be great as well.
Thanks for your help.
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Mr. Jester,
I think I can shed some light on the subject because what you are stating is for the most part correct. The type of multi-product dispenser with a single hose is designed so that the only residual product from the previous delivery would be whatever the volume of the hose on the dispenser is. This of course is a small amount but would have a greater effect (if any) on a motorcycle due to the lesser quantity of gallons purchased for the given tank fill up. Most people of course do not drain the hose when they fill up so if they purchased unlead then yes it would still be in the hose when the next person pulled up and selected premium grade (super unl).
Doing the math to determine that volume is easy, but please check my formulas for accuracy I am doing this off the top of my head. Normal fuel pump hoses range in length of 8’ to 10’ and have an outside diameter of 5/8” to ¾”.therefore I used the following to calculate the volume contained in a hose.
Assumptions
Volume of a cylinder = pi r2 x h
231 cubic inches in a gallon
3.14 x (.75”x.75”) x 120” = 211.95 divided by 27 = 7.85 cubic inches
7.85/231 = 3.4 tenths of a gallon in the hose
I used worst case scenarios for the dimensions for ease of calculation the inside diameter of the hose is much less than ¾”. The next step would be to figure the effect of the 3.4 tenths of a gallon of unlead on the octane rating of the total volume of fuel purchased when filling up. I think it is quite negligible even for a motorcycle. Remember most of the fuel dispensers are blending fuel at the island for the mid grade products anyway. I hope this info is of some help, if I find any addition websites or info that would be helpful I will pass them on.
Mark Barron
Petroleum Solutions, Inc.
3109 N. McColl Rd.
P. O. Box 2346
McAllen, TX 78502
---------------------------------------------
So, it appears that there IS some residual fuel in the line, but the assumed internal diameter of the hose is much smaller than you might believe. This reduces the actual volume of liquid left in the hose.
3/10ths of a gallon when filling with 3.5 gallons of fuel result in 8.6% dilution assuming 87 vs 93. He also made a good point regarding the midgrade. Many are mixing at the pump from 87 and 93 to get the middle grades. Some of the stations in Missouri have 5 grades, 87, 89, 90, 91, 92. I'm SURE they don't have five tanks. The pump is mixing to get the approximate grade. The worst that would happen would be a potential 8.6% dilution. A mix of mid grade with 93 would result in a lesser dilution.
Is it a possibility? Yep. Is it material?
I don't think so. |
Bcordb3
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 06:54 pm: |
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Jester, Great job, going to the source.
My next rant was going to describe what is called "transmix"created by the pipeline companies that actually distribute the different grades to the distribution center, which really isn't much product being pushed in to 100,000 barrel storage tank. Fun stuff. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 09:53 am: |
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Here's another answer I received:
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You are correct, those "single hose" dispensers are called "Variable" by the manufacturers because what ever grade was last dispensed can change the overall octane of the next transaction.
Here is how it works, when a person chooses 87 octane and fuels, the hydraulics from the meter to the nozzle now contain 87 octane gasoline.
If the next person to fuel chooses 91 octane he will first receive the remainder of 87 octane in the hose and hydraulics before receiving 91 octane. That actual amount varies depending on hose length and diameter and internal hydraulic scheme any where from .2 to .3 gallons. On the other hand if you chose 87 and the previous was 91 you get a little boost.
When you fill up a vehicle it doesn't change it much because you are usually getting 10 plus gallons at a time, but if you only get a gallon and the person ahead of you had dispensed 87 octane and you want 91 octane, you are going to receive the amount of 87 octane that remains in the hose and internal hydraulics which will effect the overall octane.
One thing you should understand is all dispensers used to have 1 hose per product so there was never an issue, then around 94 or so people started using "blending" dispensers. Blending dispensers take unlead(Low
Octane) and super(High Octane) and blend them at the dispenser creating one or more mid grades eliminating the need for a dedicated tank underground for mid grades. When you dispense a mid grade, unlead and super get combined after their respective meters directly in the hydraulics and dispense a blended octane. i.e. 87 octane plus 91 octane with 50% ratio will make 89 octane. This is where the popularity of "single hose" dispensers came from.
Chevron for example actually understood this issue of octane variance and used dispensers called "Fixed Ratio" which used a steering manifold with valves that was located close to the meter and ran dedicated hydraulics to separate hoses ensuring minimal octane change. Even though these were blenders they appeared and acted like a standard dispenser.
My recommendation when getting fuel for motorcycles is to use dispensers that have separate hoses per grades and preferably multi grade dispensers rather than a "fixed ratio" blender, but with cars it doesn't matter to much. I fuel my quads from a "fixed ratio" dispenser and have never had a problem ( a racing 4 stroke and racing 2 stroke).
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Teeps
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 11:38 am: |
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Maybe we've found the answer to the pinging some Buells seem to have.... |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 07:48 pm: |
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Ft. bstrd, the same thing i was saying several posts ago posts ago. Thx for confirming this with industry officials. But to anyone who has actually worked on the pumps and is familiar with the different systems, this is common knowledge. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 08:11 pm: |
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Tom,
come on up to Wisconsin for Homecoming and I'll show you the guts of 12 pump's.I'll also show you how much is in the hoses of these pump's of two different station's. I literally just called my brother with what FT.bstrd posted. His reply was that if my pump's hold that kind of fuel within the hoses he'd have his pump's shut down. They would be a hazard. Not only that the station cannot accuratly sell its gas to the cent if that much fuel is left behind. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 08:19 pm: |
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Agreed Tom. I wanted to know from the source. I believe both positions are correct.
Yes you can get some 87 octane fuel when you fill up, but if you are putting in a whole tank, the impact is fairly minor.
If there is only 3/10th of a gallon in the hose by the representative's formula and you are putting in 3 gallons, your actual impact to octane rating is moving your 3 gallons from 93 to 92.4 octane.
(3/10th of a gallon with three gallons = 1/10 of the total, one part at 87 to 9 parts at 93 gives you 92.4 octane if my math is right)
I really don't believe this is a material reduction in the octane of a tank of fuel. Add to that the fact that the tank already has 1.6 more gallons in the tank reducing the dilution more.
Now if my math is correct, 3/10th of a gallon to 4.5 gallons gives us a total octane reduction of 93 to 92.6. Again, I don't see that this is really a material reduction.
This is all assuming worst case scenario. Sometimes you will receive 89 octane or 93 octane.
So yes, there is residual fuel, but the impact is immaterial.
IMHO. |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 12:54 am: |
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I'm tired. industry guys have confirmed it, i have seen. fellows i know have seen it. i don't want to argue anymore. your right Bads1 tell your bro to shut his pumps down, call the EPA on the whole industry. The quicktrip corporation which is a large fuel seller in Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas and owns over 2,000 fuel stations is in violation of the EPA laws and shut em down. Sorry for arguing with you. Your right as rain, you won this argument. while your at it rat out veeder root, gilbarco and some of the major pump system manufacturers. by the way you never did tell us what pumps your bro uses since you work on them you should know. Rat them out to the EPA while your at it, since they are unsafe |
P47b
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 02:30 am: |
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Hey Bads1,
I don't think we know of the pumps your talking about here in the Mid West. Can you get a picture?
I am finding out that the pumps we use here in Wichita are not anything like the pumps you use in Racine.
In Washington State much like in Wisconsin I now know that the pumps are more on the eco side and are nothing like pumps in Kansas.
Not to change the subject but we don't have a yearly auto check in Kansas like they do in Washington State. But that’s a whole other direction. But I think that it's States rights to regulate the pumps with the EPA to enforce states law.
I think it was more of inquisitive minds want to know type question that started this. Wasn't it? |
Bads1
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 07:26 am: |
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Tom I'm not arguing with you. You sound like you are though. I didn't say I worked on them....I said I changed filters (3) per a pump. I also am telling you what two different type pump's I have found that don't do what you are saying. How is again that you have worked on pump's???
Jeremy you'd like pictures of the pump's?? I'll try to do that today |
Oldog
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 08:30 am: |
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Thanks FT_B;
that was a great Idea, to check with the MFGR.
 |
Just_ziptab
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 09:20 am: |
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Yah know, if there was an underground tank of ice cold Pepsi and an under ground tank of warm piss......would you take a drink of Pepsi from a single source hose after the last user got a cup of warm piss? |
Bads1
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 09:43 am: |
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Hey Zip you have experienced this ??
single source hose for ya.lol |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:04 am: |
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Were there two tanks, one with regular Coke and one with Diet Coke and I didn't particularly like Diet Coke and the amount of Diet Coke contaminating the drinking experience were the equivalent of one strawful, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Your piss/Pepsi example is why there are separate hoses for gasoline an diesel. Were they dispensed out of the same hose, no, no I wouldn't. |
Gentleman_jon
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:09 am: |
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Back in the day, when gas was very expensive in post war Europe, motorcyclists developed the habit of the "second fill".
When the pump had stopped, after buying a liter or two of gas, the intrepid Italian enthusiast would then lift the hose over his head, and let a precious ounce or two of premix drain out of the hose and into his Vespa or Mondial.
This thread got me thinking about the gas pump problem from the cheapskate's unique point of view.
Let's say the tank on a Buell holds 3.82 gallons, and that we fill up when 3 gallons have been used. At an average of 50 miles per gallon, that means a fill up every 150 miles. (I know most people, myself included, top up at 120, but please bear with me:-).
If one is able to get 5000 miles per year on his bike, (assuming one lives in an area where the bike is rarely used in the winter), that would mean about 33 or more fill ups per year
If one used the "second fill" technique that means that 33 x .3 gallons = 10 gallons of free fuel could added to the bike.
This means approximately a free $35 per year in gas.
Can't beat that with a stick, am I right my brothers?
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Saintly
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:14 am: |
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If there were two tanks, one with sierra mist and one with sprite, I'd be ok with it.
However if someone had peed on the soil in which the sierra mist tank resided, then I would opt for a scenario of Mr. Pibbs & Dr pepper.
Unless of course, the blending pump was dispensing too much seltzer and not enough syrup, in which case I would pee onto a six pack of A&W root beer, and just drink an orange crush (in a can). |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:16 am: |
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The standard, at least in NY state, sample is a 5 gallon container.
Interesting news docu feature last week on the testing for accuracy or measures, octane, presence of water, etc.
Bore out that the internet account are as accurate as most things on the internet.
Octanes, in the 85 stations they samples, were about spot on. Quantity was almost always close and the presence of water minimal.
The one to watch for, and I've seen this in New Jersey, is that the price on the pump is the same as the price on the sign. |
04buell
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:47 am: |
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We have a Fuel Station at the supermarket I work at. I am one of the 3 that change prices......
Rule is:
Price goes up..change sign first so consumers know what they are paying.
If price is going down..change sign after repricing pumps.
There is really not much profit in fuel since it is such a competitive market. We have a cents off plan that lowers your price per gallon by buying products in the store. The money is made from inside sales.
The Mrs. |
Teeps
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 11:01 am: |
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So the answer to this dilemma is look for a high end car, one that you know used premium, wait until they get done; then use that pump. |
Azxb9r
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 11:12 am: |
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When the pump had stopped, after buying a liter or two of gas, the intrepid Italian enthusiast would then lift the hose over his head, and let a precious ounce or two of premix drain out of the hose and into his Vespa or Mondial.
You mean not EVERYBODY does this? I'm so embarrassed. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 11:17 am: |
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I was riding a Harley-Davidson Sportster from Oklahoma City to Topeka in 1993. There were a series of ugly tornadoes in Kansas and the power was out all along the turnpike.
I rolled, on reserve, into a rest area and while all the cars were sitting helplessly at the pumps. . . I made my rounds . . draining fuel from hoses.
The look on their faces was priceless as I fired the bike up and headed north to Emporia. |
P47b
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 11:26 am: |
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Hey Court, PM Me Please. I am in need of some info from you. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 12:49 pm: |
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O4buell you are right.Stations make sometimes no more then 2 cents on a gallon. But at the same time you could have a Arab down the street selling for 2 cents less a gallon. It piss's off alot of station owners. Making the money is inside for sure but Cig's are taxed to hell now so its getting harder to make money off them. Its in beer,soda,lottery,scratch off's, etc. Most larger stations have it all. Like my brother's. It has 2 car washes,a license to sell booze,beer,just about a one stop for everything. Next thing that gets put in will most likely be some type of fast food in future. If you don't and you don't have heavy to some what good traffic out front your store will in time take a dive. Seeing station's now closing because they just can't compete. |
Just_ziptab
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 01:18 pm: |
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Years ago, I heard you could, at a "closed for the night" station, twirl a pump hose like a jump rope and get enuf fuel to get you down the road............which begs the question, could you hook a pump of your own to a nozzle and draw as much fuel as you wanted?? |
Bads1
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 01:23 pm: |
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Try it Ziptab. But first I want you to jump rope with it a few times. I think your on to something.lol |
Gentleman_jon
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 03:51 pm: |
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I'll have what Fritz is having.
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04buell
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 07:18 pm: |
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Bads1:
Our store has been lucky. We have sold a 4 million, a 7 million and a 15 million dollar lottery ticket in the past 20 years. The store gets 1 percent and our owner is good. He put the stores part back into the store rather than pocketing it.
We have a 50 thousand square foot store Plus the Convenience store which is across the street from the main store. We don't sell alcohol but we do have a restaurant, flower shop, pharmacy and a bank. All this stuff supports the Fuel. We just added it for convenience.
Mrs. 04buell |
Bads1
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 08:16 pm: |
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Sound like a pretty big store. 50,000 sq.ft. ??? Wow is that including the outside property??? Because I've never even seen that before?? My Brothers place is big in soda beer because he is basically sell's more then some grocery stores in a week's time. Average about 475 cases a week just in Miller products. He has been listed as the most sales for lottery in wisconsin in the past. Its a tough biz thats for sure. |
04buell
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:24 pm: |
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Yeh, one store. It is huge and it takes about 210 employees to keep it going. I am the lucky soul that gets to hire for a 24 hour store that pays above minimum but below "rich man". We were once considered the largest volume IGA store in the world, but I am sure that has changed by now. The website is www.martinsiga.com and then the Effingham link. We, meaning my company, own 2 more IGA's also plus 2 Save-A-Lots, but they are all much smaller than the Daddy Store. |
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