| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
My own findings are not in line with the supposedly scientific findings I have read. Nor are they in line with these so called experts, such as Code and Parks, who seem ill at ease to report the actual realities of riding various machines. Maybe the physics work differently in the UK?  When it was 27* and I sat on my left hand to keep it warm, I pushed my right hand to bank right and pulled to bank left. We ain't never been to good at physics in Tennessee, though.  | ||
| Rocketman |
Maybe the physics work differently in the UK? I believe the Coriolis effect only works between hemispheres. In fact, if you conduct the test on the equator there is no effect so to speak. Unfortunately, cornering a motorcycle is not so conclusive as the clitoral effect  Rocket | ||
| Wile_ecoyote |
the clitoral effect? hmmm.....maybe I need more lessons LOL | ||
| Sanchez |
Rocket, I'm confused. First you say it's wrong to push with only the inside hand, and then you say you totally agree that the outside arm should be completely relaxed. I'm missing something here.  | ||
| Sanchez |
> When it was 27* and I sat on my left hand to keep it warm, I pushed my right hand to bank right and pulled to bank left. When it was 27*, I turned up my electric gloves another notch.  | ||
| Doerman |
Don't worry Sanches. He'll be better tomorrow. It is late Friday nite and he got the coriolis and clitoris effect mixed up. Ain't easy being a Yorkshire man on a Friday nite!  Asbjorn | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Ain't easy being a Yorkshire man on a Friday nite! Hard for him to concentrate with all the sheep roaming around. And Rocket without his velcro gloves. | ||
| Doerman |
well, now that we've settled that ...  | ||
| Rocketman |
I'm missing something here. You have interpreted Parks meaning as you see fit. I haven't read Parks so I don't know the context in which Parks meant 'relax', which is why I mentioned Fangio's offerings, to support my own. Just because you relax does not mean you are not doing anything. "Relax Luke. Let the force come to you". Rocket | ||
| Sanchez |
Well, stick with whatever works for you. For anyone who's not yet made up their mind, I recommend trying the Parks method and seeing how it feels. | ||
| Blake |
Relaxing and leaning into the turn is excellent advice. The rest pretty much comes naturally it seems to me. I'd say both hands are needed to get a bike to turn in some situations. For instance, in an aggressive moderate to high-speed turn, like on a race track, you will be pushing and pulling with all your might to get the bike to quickly lean over into the turn. Try just just pushing with the inside hand and you'll push yourself right off the bike and end up crashing into the fence. Not so much on a 52" wheelbase Buell XBike though. | ||
| Rocketman |
Blake, is it possible we could rewrite the history books of motorcycle handling and control, as I am in absolute agreement with what you just said. Rocket | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Technically, the pivot point for the front forks doesn't know how the force was applied. You could just as easily have a single lever attached to the top triple tree to apply the force. With it, you could apply forward or reverse pull to steer the motorcycle. You could apply a single lever and a servo to test the theory. I'd bet that with a servo matching rider input, handling would be exactly the same. The handlebar design is a function of human mechanics not that we need to be able to apply force in two areas. | ||
| Glitch |
Unfortunately, I'm more pushing and pulling with my right hand. I realize there is some input from my left, but due to circumstances I'm left with a very weak left, I have to compensate. I consciously try to be even handed, but it ain't always in the cards. | ||
| Mikef5000 |
Since I read that book, I've been focusing at only providing steering input with my inside hand. **On my bike, in the situations I've tried it** I've found it to work very well. | ||
| Josh_ |
As ft_bstrd said, with a pivot point and one plane of motion, pulling with the left gives the exact same movement to the forks as pushing with the right. Since as a rider you want the forks to make one motion, why use two inputs (both hands)? Then the advice is to use the "inside" hand since your body will be leaned that direction and you'll have better control of that hand. Also, since the steering head only has one plane of motion, only force to the bars perpendicular to the steering head matters. This is one of the reasons they tell you to drop your elbows - getting your forearms perpendicular to the steering head gives you the best leverage for the pivot. When you've had enough counter-steering, go to www.americansupercamps.com to learn flat-tracking (which Rocket says is how you ride a 916) | ||
| Etennuly |
Don't forget with all of this pushing and pulling you also use your paws for balancing and controlling part of your mass as you shift it from center to hang off and back. | ||
| Xbullet |
the more you know, the more you realize how little you know. IMO, it's all about what works for you. so here's my two techniques.... the first is XB specific, so i don't know how it would work on a 916. 1. hug the airbox. scooting forward on the seat got weight over the front end. the only time i've had issues with front end wobble is when there was not enough weight to the front. (just for the record, a tankslapper led to my 70mph backbreaking getoff.) 2. focus on getting through the turn fast, and NOT on dragging the knee 'nuff said. mental techniques are, to me, more important than physical. yes, kiss the mirror and lower your CG and look where you want to go. but also don't freak out when something goes wrong. things are gonna go wrong. that's what makes it exciting. situational assessment and reaction times are your best friend when things go awry. they prevent or minimize the damage to self and machine.} | ||
| G234146 |
+1 to relaxing the grip. I had the bad habit of using the handlebars to maintain my position. This sent way too much unnecessary rider input through my kung-fu grip. plus it was tiring! Using my legs to maintain position and shift weight helped relax my grip and get a smoother feel on the bike. | ||
| Rocketman |
Technically, the pivot point for the front forks doesn't know how the force was applied. You could just as easily have a single lever attached to the top triple tree to apply the force. With it, you could apply forward or reverse pull to steer the motorcycle. You could apply a single lever and a servo to test the theory. I'd bet that with a servo matching rider input, handling would be exactly the same. The handlebar design is a function of human mechanics not that we need to be able to apply force in two areas. .......................................... As ft_bstrd said, with a pivot point and one plane of motion, pulling with the left gives the exact same movement to the forks as pushing with the right. Since as a rider you want the forks to make one motion, why use two inputs (both hands)? Then the advice is to use the "inside" hand since your body will be leaned that direction and you'll have better control of that hand. You both confused yourself by changing the steering control mechanism. The applied leverage is NOT the same between the outside and inside end of the handlebar. The handlebar might well be symmetrical between the bikes centre line but when leaned into a corner the inside edge of the tyre is exerting force on one side of the steering axis. That means the leverage needed to move the steering has to be greater from the inside bar than that of the outside. That is why when you are leaned over the inside bar feels much heavier than the outside bar. Inside requires a handful to move the bar. Outside requires much less and the bar can be moved with fingertips. Consider the headstock as having two sides split between its centre line. One side is neutral whilst the other is live. The same law applies to either end of the handlebar. Only when a motorcycle is sat upright are both ends of the handlebar equal in terms of force applied or force felt. Throw those Parks and Code tombs in the bin. "Feel the force". Rocket | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
If the levers share a single pivot point, which they do, and are equal in length, which they are, the force necessary to impart rotational movement is equal. I got Newton on my side, who you got? | ||
| Rocketman |
If the levers share a single pivot point, which they do, and are equal in length, which they are, the force necessary to impart rotational movement is equal. .......if they are floating in space and the wheel, if attached, is not spinning whilst leaning more to one side than the opposite. But this is not the case on a cornering motorcycle. So the levers are subject to other forces, such as the contact from one side of the tyre with the ground. How about gyroscopic force upon the handlebar? edit Forgot, Newton eh Fats? Well, I don't have anyone on my side, so I might well be totally wrong, and talking a lot of shit. I make this stuff up as I go along, but I do base it on my own experiences. Don't forget, I could hand Rossi his arse if I were on Stoner's Ducati. Oh, wait a minute. So could anyone else! Rocket (Message edited by rocketman on November 17, 2007) | ||
| Aesquire |
I think I get it Rocket!!! With the bike in the turn, the wheel is slightly turned in, correct? The bars sweep towards you, and the down/inside bar is at a less mechanical advantage angle, & your applied force is getting more and more side to side & less fore & aft. The opposite is true of the upper/outside bar which is at a better angle for fore & aft input. The inside bar not only has a slightly less leverage, you are also supporting more weight on the inside hand. ??? right? So it feels more rigid, "stuck in mud", while the outside, upper bar end is at a closer to 90 deg angle to the steering head, has less muscle tension on the hand holding it, and feels easier to move. Is that it? | ||
| Midknyte |
just to note, as you improve your stance, leaning forward and into the mirror and getting more aggressive - you may find the rear wheel sliding out. If so, don't freak out - reduce your rear compression damping. | ||
| Aesquire |
Ft_, True, but the bars are swept, ( I've only seen rat choppers with a straight pipe handlebar, and even then the steering head is at an angle of not 90 deg to the planet ) and the arms act on them asymmetrically as they turn. Also, the Rider, if leaning, is no longer on centerline for symmetric input? ( we will get to which inputs do what next, I hope ) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I have no doubt that rider position and weight distribution has an effect. I am arguing that WHY that is the case as explained by Rocket is not correct. If you could somehow remove rider weight and the need to use the bars to not only steer the bike but to support the body and move around the bike, the force needed to pull one bar is the same as what would be needed to push the other regardless of sweep or head angle. We just rarely pull with the same force that we push, therefore the only point of reference is how much harder it is to push one bar or the other. Again, my contention is that if you only had one bar and pushed and pulled on only that bar the forces would not be any different than if you had two and only pushed on opposing bars instead of pulling. | ||
| Etennuly |
So you are saying that mechanically the forces required to move the bars a the left and right grip are the same, but you loose leverage by moving from side to side on the bike. So if you are in a right sweeper hanging off the bike it takes less effort to move the bar with your right hand than with your left because of leverage, then sweeping back to the left you move to the left side of the bike causing a mechanical advantage on that side. | ||
| Rocketman |
If my arms were spring balances I would be able to tell you how much force is necessary to move the bars with either hand whilst banked over, but my arms are not spring balances. Maybe it's the same. Maybe not. But it definitely feels different. The simplest way it is explained in this thread is how Blake described it, and Patrick touched upon it too. I don't believe for a moment that the inside bar takes precedence and it is this that I am at odds with when some here are quoting Parks, Code et al. the so called experts telling us to do exactly this. I haven't read either of their works, so maybe this is not exactly what they are saying. If it is then they're wrong in my opinion. I would like to stir the pot a little here though. Having never ridden the 'Wall of Death', I wonder how the forces applied by each hand work on going up and down the wall. Hmm. Rocket | ||
| Aesquire |
On the wall, the bike is constantly turning up hill, so is leaned with the top of bike up & in. Higher bar is closer to wall, but sum of forces is also that the wall would seem tilted as you ride.... very much like riding on the side of a hill, you constantly adjust slip angles to keep altitude constant. So closest hand to wall or ground is the lower/inside hand. Ft_, Ones perception is also affected by ergo's, that's why I surmise Rocket's Ducati, ( which I suppose has clip on bars ) is hard to control with down/inside hand pressure. The angle is bad. If you had a one armed tiller control pointed straight back, it would be absolutely true that pressures both applied and fed back would be symmetrical when plotted for turn in & turn out. Etennuly, No, Rocket's contention, ( if I understand it ) is that ( once stable in turn, we haven't got to turn in/out forces yet ) in a right hand sweeper, your inside/lower hand has less leverage and is harder to move to input corrections. The outside/upper hand has better leverage, and is better for fine control. Please correct me on that? | ||
| Slaughter |
I need to turn, I turn, bike turns, WE turn. Thinking about it will F*ck me up. Got too many other things on my mind at that time. I had too much trouble in dynamics and stability/controls classes in school. Easier if I don't think about it all. |
