| Author | Message | ||
     Regkittrelle |
BattleTrax... hmmm, strange saga. I'm the owner and originator of BattleTrax. Mikey "Two Buells" has been my East Coast "agent" for the event for several years, and been doing an excellent job as many of you can attest to. Not too long ago I was staging more than 40 events a year. In total we have played the BattleTrax game in 39 states and 5 foreign countries, with more than 400 events staged for several thousand riders. During the past year I have purposely cut back on this for several reasons. First, the insurance cost keeps rising. Currently it costs my clients between $750 and $850 (coverage variable) per event just for the insurance. On top of this add the management fee ($1,000) and travel expenses ($600 to $800) and you can see that it costs a bundle to stage a BattleTrax. Then, factor in the attendance---23 at the recent Schaeffer's event--- and you come up with a cost-per-entrant that just doesn't make any sense. These factors have caused me to re-evaluate where I want to take this event. And then there's this... Some of the Detroit area dealers decided they liked the event, but didn't like paying me. So, they changed the name, thereby not running afoul of copyright issues, and ran their own series. I held several discussions with them re the ethics of this but, apparently we speak very different languages. It sorely pissed me off and definitely cooled my ardor for developing the sport, particularly so because the Harley-Davidson DM could not understand why there was anything wrong with what they did. This has happened in a few other instances over the years (BTW: Silver Eagle has been trained, and pays a fee to run their events.) I would very much like to see BattleTrax grow into my original vision as I believe it's just about as much fun as you can have in a parking lot on a motorcycle. Will this happen? Not sure. What it needs is a core group of enthusiasts who are willing to work their respective asses off for not a lot of money. (That $1,000 management fee sounds like a lot until you understand all the pre-work that goes into staging an event) Gearhead: Close, but no cigar. The Iowa track is one of the largest we've used but the Silverstone (England) and Las Vegas Speedway venues have it beat. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks for that explanation Reg, that really helps clear things up. I wondered also. They pulled the same stunt here in the midwest, and called it the "sportbike challenge". I never understood why they would go to the trouble of trying to "roll their own" for something as complicated (and risk riddled) as this, rather then just get you to do it. Not suprisingly, the one I tried to attend was cancelled because "the equipment was lost by UPS". I loved my battletrax experiences, and would love to do it again, and would be thrilled to volunteer to help with any within a reasonable distance. How can those of us interested in being volunteers get connected? | ||
| Socalbueller |
Battle Trax looks like Autocross for bikes. Is that basicly what it is? Is there anything done in the Los Angeles area? I would think you would be able to get a good turn out since there are a billion people here already. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Reepicheap... You touch on an item that scares the stuffing out of me. A good BattleTrax course does not happen by accident... and a bad one can cause one. Course layout is not brain surgery, but attention has to be paid to how the different course elements mesh. Without this attention it's either dangerous or boring. SoCal.. BattleTrax is close to the same as auto-X. In fact, when I first developed the idea in 1997, I worked with the SCCA (Sacramento Region) to 1) assure there was no copyright issues---a courtesy that I was not offered by the rip-offs--- and, 2) have them help me on course layout. There is nothing planned in your area. The best one we've held down there was sponsored by BMW of Long Beach; a large numbver of entries on a huge variety of motorcycles. | ||
| Spiderman |
Hey Reg, Ping me when you get a chance. slimspidey@gmail.com | ||
| Daves |
Hey Reg, you have mail | ||
| Buellerx |
I had the opportunity to work an event in Myrtle Beach, SC a few years ago. It was a lot of fun and very well run. Also got to see Bubba Blackwell run through the course an a Blast. I would love to have the opportunity to do it again. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
huh uh, Dave. Did you do it at my new e-mail address? | ||
| Reepicheep |
If there is any way to volunteer, let us know! | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Reep... I wish it were that simple. Given that a BTX costs between $2K and $3K, there generally has to be a business client (rather than a club or group of people) behind it. In turn, that business has to see a return on their investment. For a dealership, that means the activity on the sales floor or parts counter has to show a spike over non-BTX days. For corporations such as HD and KTM (We call it SuperTTrax there) they have to see a lot of people exposed to their products. Example: At Daytona this year we put more than 200 riders on KTMs and ran them thru our course. The core problem with BTX is that it's a poor spectator sport and only a small portion of the riding community will try it (All KINDS of stories about that!). So, what are we left with? A very expensive, liability-heavy event that interests only a relatively small group. Not a formula for success. Is there a solution? Yes. But if I talk about it, someone will rip it off. I just need the right corporate sponsor. When I've pitched it, I get rave reviews... just haven't pitched it to the right compasny yet. | ||
| 1313 |
 Ethics in the Detroit area... This made me think back to my college days. Thanks for the best laugh I've had in a LONG while, Reg!!! 1313 | ||
| Socalbueller |
Reg, Does a Battletrax event cost any more than an autocross event? Obviously there are more cars than bikes on the road so more people would show up at an autocross event. Also Battletrax is a pretty new so it would take some time to get the word out, if they were done regularly. How much is admission? If you charge 30 bucks you would need 100 riders to cover the cost an event. I wouldn't think that would be a problem in LA. Maybe get the AMA involved on promoting it on a good way to sharpen your skills. Plus get more than one shop to sponsor an event or series of events. I'm sure you already thought or knew about these ideas. Anyways let me know if you need any volunteers. I'd be glad to help out. Brian (Message edited by socalbueller on August 23, 2005) | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Brian... Your thoughts are all good ones; some we have tried. A couple of years ago Buell sponsored a National BattleTrax Championship. There were events across the states culminating in a Championship Final in Las vegas. it was a great series, but it wasn't well-attended: there was no "next year." Tradionally (8 years) BTX has been free to riders. At some events, the client has charged $5 Interestingly enough, areas like LA are not necessarily good for this event (Long beach BMW was a notable exception). To begin with, BTX is not too attractive to "poseurs." Plus, we run into a lot of bike bigotry wherein Ducatistas won't hang with Ninjas who can't stand Buells etc. Multi-shop sponsors are tough because each wants the event on their turf. I'd gladly waive my fee to put a large event on in LA. The first problem would be finding a site... p.s. And now I find that the HD DM that sanctified BTX-under-another-name has been suggesting that it happen outside his area also. I'm gonna have to work through all the mad once again. | ||
| Koz5150 |
Reg, From the pic I posted earlier I can proudly say I have attended and enjoyed an Authentic Battletrax event. It's pretty sad to hear about knock-off events being staged. I guess that is kinda the way of the world though. If someone has something good, everyone else wants to copy it. (that would explain why we have 20+ different types of SUV's to choose from) Not that it is in your control, but it is kinda hard for a Buell dealer to hold a Buell event expecting to make money back on floor sales when they have more Harley Baby clothes and dog collars then they do Buell merchandise. Pretty sad eh? The other problem is the poser factor. There are alot of people (sportbike and cruiser riders) who just are not very good motorcycle riders. Now if you could only find a way to get the DMV to require new riders to run a Battletrax skills course before getting their license perhaps it would make everyone a bit safer. I came away from Uke's in 2003 feeling that I had learned alot about how to ride my bike better and what both my bike and myself are able to do safely. So if it is any consulation, your time and effort made me a better and safer rider. I can honestly say I learned more daily usefull skills on your course then I did on a track day, THANKS! I know many people in this world do everything for money, and we all need it to survive, but educators of all sorts are the individuals who go to bed at night knowing that what they did will make someones life better, or in your case, possibly save it. Again I say thanks! Ken | ||
| Gearhead |
Reg, Great to hear from you!! Sorry for being over zealous about our BattleTrax events here in Iowa but we're not Las Vegas or England either!! We've fought the low turnout problem since we started holding Battletrax which has made it hard to sell to the new owners of Silver Eagle HD/Buell so any new ideas you have would be greatly appreciated by those of us who love to do this. One last note to everyone else... I met Reg at our first BattleTrax event. He's a great guy with lots of enthusiasm! He kind of got on my case for not riding up to my ability which is a leason I've never forgot!! Thanks to his patience, great teaching and a little kick in the pants I've become a better rider and a great cheerleader for our local events. Thanks, Reg!! | ||
| Socalbueller |
I can't believe Battletrax hasn't been more popular. I think it is a cheaper alternative to track days. Especially if you don't live near a track. If you could run an event at least once a month, in an area, you could have a little points system going. That would be the cheapest form of competition you could have on a motorcycle. $5 is a hell of a deal for the day. When I lived in Massachusetts I did autocross for a couple years with my Mustang. It was $20 and most of the time you got 4 runs at the course, that lasted maybe a minute, during the day. A few times we got 6 and once only 3 because there were so many people. I wasn't even close at being competitive in my class. Just compared my times to 3 or 4 friends that ran also. There was a little bit of car bigotry but that is almost unavoidable at an event like that. I did end up respecting the BMW M3 after I saw one run through the cones. Also it's fun to laugh at a guy with a embroidered button up Porsche shirt and kaki shorts acting like he owns the most sophisticated car there and seeing him jump in a mid 70s POS 914 that needed to pushed out of the staging lanes. It would be great to see how different bikes handle a tight course or seeing some guy smoke half the sportbikes on a dresser. | ||
| Pa_xb9sx |
I started a thread about the BattleTrax event at Schaeffer's. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/4062/140940.html?1124819301 Schaeffer's is a great Buell dealer so it was definitely disappointing to only see a handful of Buells there. There are some pictures in the post if you would like to see them. And Reg... The two BattleMasters did a great job at the event. You have some good people working for/with you. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
BattleTrax has always had a bit of an image problem in that those who haven't tried it have had a tendency to discount the skill required to do it well. After years of staging these things, I'm certain about this: 1) Those that don't do well at BattleTrax are similarly deficient at track and race days. 2) A significant number of licensed motorcycle riders... shouldn't be. 3) The rider is a more important component than the motorcycle 4) A competent large-bike (Harley FLs, BMW Ks in particular)rider can put the hurt on the average sportbike rider. 5) Harley-Davidson does not have a lock on the poseur faction: The poseur crown belongs to the Japanese sportbike group 6) Buell riders defy easy categorization 7) It is usually easier to get a woman rider to try BTX, than a man. 8) There are any number of dealership owners that you do not want to do a "pinks" run with. Notably, Keith Ulicki, Joe White, and Mike Mcquire, to name a few. 9) I'd put money on Don Canet against anyone else I've ever had sign up. 10) Jose Q. is the most stylish/quickest Thunderbolt rider I've watched. 11) A KTM 525 with slicks, on a smooth course should be declared illegal in that it breaks any number physical laws. 12) "Jaws" holds the title as the fastest guy ever on a clapped-out motorcycle (a decades-old RD350 with no fork oil.) 13) There has only been one woman win overall (Kawasaki KX125 mounted) 14) The Buell demo truck tractor holds the worst time on a course 15) A Taurus rental car destroys cones 16) Sometimes the best sights happen AFTER the event is over. 17) I miss the BTX battles I used to have with then-Buell's Scott Miller And yes, Mike & Neal have been the backbone of BTX in their area for many years | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
10) Jose Q. is the most stylish/quickest Thunderbolt rider I've watched. S2 or S3? FB | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Thunderbolts overall. Yes, Jerry, you are very quick. But until I see you ride in a lightning storm as did Jose in PA...didn't slow him down a bit... the "title" rests with him. You do dredge up an idea I've had for years: Get all of you really quick guys together at one event. Hey Mikey, who would be the candidates from your end of the world? | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Yes, Jerry, you are very quick. But until I see you ride in a lightning storm as did Jose in PA...didn't slow him down a bit... the "title" rests with him. ouch, that hurts!    12) "Jaws" holds the title as the fastest guy ever on a clapped-out motorcycle (a decades-old RD350 with no fork oil.) btw, the first trophy in line, a third place (overall) finish, kept a certain Mr. "Jaws" off the box. FB (Message edited by jerry_haughton on August 24, 2005) | ||
| CJXB |
6) Buell riders defy easy categorization That's a fact !! Go Jose and FB !!! CJ | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Jerry... C'mon, I'm not trying to demean your considerable skills. Note the qualifier, "on a clapped-out motorcycle" re Jaws. p.s. The first BattleTrax was March 7, 1997 at Daytona Beach. You won your trophy at the Jamestown "Blue Groove." | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
Reg, zero offense taken, note the two . my bad on the chronology of BattleTrax, sure sign my gray hair has infected my brain. go José! | ||
| Reepicheep |
What about a two tier structure? Publish a series of smaller standard layouts (two square, two rectangle) and a setup guide. Anyone could use this at any place, even if it is just a skills drill with a bunch of buddies, no timing involved. Publish and copyright it, I would pay $30 for the setup "how not to kill yourself" pamphlet. Then run the bigger official timed events like they get run now. And start charging for them. I would be happy to drop $20 to $50 for a SCCA like battletrax event, even once a month or so. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Reep... I have a 60-page BattleTrax manual that lays everything out very completely. Here's the rub (and the root cause of so many problems in our society): Liability. As soon as this manual went out the door, some idiot would sue me. Why? Because they did what the manual said, fell and hurt themselves... which, of course, would be my fault. We are a litigious society that has raised lawsuits to the level of a major industry. I have trained several people to be BattleMasters, but have stopped doing so because I've found instances where safety has been compromised. This is why there has to be a major corporation behind this; my small California "C" corp could not handle one of these lawsuits. Even if we won, the costs would bankrupt me. But, damn, you do get me thinking again. Thanx. | ||
| Jugallo94 |
Reg in regards to the detroit metro ones as spidey has probably already told you they sucked. These were my first interactions with the buell community since buying a blast last year. I did not have my endorsement so they wouldnt let me ride, but the pocket rockets were alowwed to take the course. The finals in toledo seemed more like a accident course then a sport bike challenge course. Everytime I turned around there was another bike laying on its side. I am hoping that you are able to start these up again in the future and I am able to try them out. Good luck with it. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
...94 Your post reflects my concern. Building a course that doesn't put people on the ground is not as easy as it might seem. A bad course is also highly counter-productive. When on-lookers see bikes down they're disinclined to participate. On the other hand, when it's obvious riders are having fun, then participation goes up. In my discussion with the DM... and the sales manager.. of the "spin-off" area I brought this up. One comment I got back was, "Hey, how hard can it be?" The surprising thing, to me, is that corporate-wise the The Mother Company is fanatical about not exposing itself to liability, yet they de facto condone what's going on. | ||
| Daves |
For those following this thread. Please see my new BattleTrax thread. Thank you | ||
| Court |
>>>17) I miss the BTX battles I used to have with then-Buell's Scott Miller That is an accurate statement. Of all the Buell "firsts" I have been present at in 20 years, the BattleTrax in Daytona still makes me smile. | ||
| Matty |
Reg, As far as SoCal locations, how about Irwindale speedway or the Rose Bowl? A little promotion would help significantly. The last event at the BMW dealership was big, but most of the folks who were interested in going found out about it AFTER the event. I think the previous SoCal event at the airstrip in Camarillo suffered a similar fate. The dealerships really didn't know how to get the word around and most folks had no idea what Battletrax was (or how fun it is). |
