| Author | Message | ||
     Cowboy |
Well to each his own all I have to go on is my personal experience. when I was a young man I joined the union I almost let my family starve before I walked away back to the oil field non union I have had money in my pocket ever after. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"After working for GM for 17 years and hearing about crap friends in non union jobs put up with , I'll keep the union job!!!" Excellent point. Unions protect workers from getting shafted by companies BS of making one person do the work of 2. Non-union electrician at a printing company...cleans toilets, answers phones, slings paper, moves crap with a forklift. Union electricial in a print shop...does electrical work. Say what you want about what unions do and don't. They protect their workers (Message edited by BuellinaChinashop on September 27, 2007) | ||
| Ironken |
I'll never discredit non-union members for their skills or regulations. It is true, these regs that I live by are Federal mandates. There are certain companies that treat their employees well. Now as you have read, I am very pro-Union. As an example...Lincoln Electric (by the way personally for my side business is the only Welding equipment I will buy) is non-Union and to my knowledge a quality employer and they have a no layoff policy....very nice. But there are some industries and companies that a Union is a must! I work for the second largest RR in the country (only by a few miles of trackage) and one of the largest in the world. If there were no Union, it would be a miserable job. One instance is time spent in the motel on layover. We have agreements in place to penalize the carrier if we are left in the motel over 16 hours. No penalty in place....we would rot there....just one small example. Employee safety is another and OSHA is not a knight in shining armor as people think. Before the Unionization of North American freight RRs a brakeman's job longevity was measured in months. A good brakeman would only be missing a few fingers. We do not have workmans comp either. All injuries are settled in court which is allowed for by FELA. If I error at work, I'm fired. Period. It is up to the Union to negotiate to get me back to work or to negotiate a length of discipline....To that I say Union yes. | ||
| Ironken |
Cowboy, you did what you had to do....Kudos. I doubt that you were ready to starve due to Union pay. As the noob, I would speculate that you didn't have the seniority to hold the job steady....Am I close? | ||
| Cowboy |
You missed it every time we would get in our 40 hr. the union would send out men from the union hall. they would work the remaining week. hell we had to make all we could in the summer as we would be shut down most winter due to rain.In the oilfield I was paided on my ability,seniority is B.S. if you cant get it you cant stay. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"(by the way personally for my side business is the only Welding equipment I will buy)" Ever try Eutectic? | ||
| Ironken |
I know that Eutectic is some sort of alloying of two metals that melt at exactly the same point.....um, at least I think. Do you mean a brand of filler metals? Or possibly a type of filler metals. I vaguely remember my friend that works in powerplant maint. talk about it. It sounds like less of a production electrode or filler metal and more for repair and welding hard to weld materials. We had some crap called SuperMissileWeld. Supposedly could weld from your butt-crack to the crack of dawn with it. (Message edited by ironken on September 27, 2007) | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Its a welding company. We sell welders, pta, hvof equipment, wear plate and consignment... wires, powders and rod. | ||
| Ironken |
I did some research and re-posted........What brand of welders do you sell as your main product line? Also had to research on what HVOF and PTA is.....outta my realm. Sounds like you are working mostly with wear resistant materials. (Message edited by ironken on September 27, 2007) | ||
| Tpoppa |
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/406 2/255293.html This has been discussed several time before. The thread above list many examples of Union abuses that just don't occur in non-union shops. In the past, unions served a real purpose however many unions have simply outlived there usefulness. Like it or not we live in a global economy. Manufacturing is the prime example where unions no longer make sense. The UAW model is detrimental to the US auto industry and the US economy as a whole. | ||
| Buellshyter |
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| Ironken |
Tpoppa, I look forward to your job being outsourced soon. Your profile says software project manager.....Wow, you never hear of computer tech type jobs going overseas do ya? Lets start a new thread called, "Why pay American software Project Managers to do what off shore personnel can do for half the price?" American software just no longer makes since. We are in a global economy and we have to do what's best for big business. Comp. Tech. is also a good example where we also have to make cuts. If we don't, it would be detrimental to the US computing industry and the US economy as a whole......Tpoppa....wanna volunteer for a pay cut? After all it is what's best. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Ken, I think you've got some good points. Your industry is unique because there is limited competition from employer to employer. If you are the only game in town, what does it matter how you treat your employees (or customers for that matter). Unions serve as the only real line of defense between an employer unchecked and the employees. Examples: Amtrack, railroads, mining, airlines, utilities. In employers where competition for talent is high, job environment, pay, and benefits must be competitive or the talent leaves. Unions serve little purpose here. Why do I need a union to protect me? If my job sucks, work for the next company in line. The X factor is a worker who has a skill which is actually sought after. If you are a buggy whip craftsman, it's gonna be tough. A union may help, but eventually, you're gonna be unemployed by the market. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
If Tpoppa is like most IT guys I know, he is continually pushing the knowledge horizon seeking new certifications. I do the same. In fact, my job is rehabing the careers of folks who have let their skillset "tarnish". How many dedicated COBOL Engineers do you know? None. Know why? The market doesn't need them. The ICEU (International COBOL Engineers Union) would only be able to keep these engineers employed domestically by threatening work stoppages. Eventually, the company would simply employ workers not part of the ICEU, probably overseas. If Tpoppa stays stationary in his knowledge base, he will probably lose his job. And should. | ||
| Court |
>>>armchair Labor know-it-alls Explain to me "armchair". I spent 4 years doing an under grad degree studying labor law and economics. My Grandfather (who died before I was born) was a well known I.B.E.W. organizer. My Father was a lifelong I.B.E.W. member who "shelved" his card and started a small construction company (borrow $50 each from 10 lineman in a bar in MO one night) that grew to be one of the largest in the county. I had my first I.B.E.W. "ticket" in 1968 and still carry a paid up I.B.E.W. ticket. I graduated from NYU's program with an emphasis in Construction Labor Law. I belong to and am active in the New York City Construction Law group. Last year, when slapped with a major citation from OSHA and my employer wanted to cave, I did the research, wrote the defense, appeared before the OSHRC and won. I am enrolled in Construction Labor Law at Columbia University in the Master's Program and sit on the Construction Safety Committee of the New York City Building Trades (Union) Employers Association. I am currently tasked with studying the AWS requirements for welding stainless steel pressure vessels and developing a workable set of "compentancy requirements" because on the last job >80% of the welds made by the union guy failed and due to labor laws he could not be replaced and the union's solution was to send 2 other guys to "watch" him . . . the welds continued to fail and we continued to pay this guy >$5,000 per week until we could get a qualified guy over the objection of the union. When the unions stopped providing the best training and best qualified folks and started the entire "you use us or else . . . " and convinced the follow blindly membership that the union was somehow "raising their standard of living" by dumbing down the membership . . well, they lost the battle. New York City is THE UNION TOWN of the United States and membership is dropping like a rock. Welcome to the new world where a "qualified", I mean truly qualified and skilled person, will be replacing the guy you "have to use". Take your "armchair" and blow it out your ass. Court | ||
| Court |
>>>They protect their workers While I do not disagree with that, I'd suggest that the manner in which they do it is rapidly becoming ineffective. You know how I have protected my job . . . by being the BEST at what I do.  SKILL . . . try it sometime . . . | ||
| Mikej |
"They protect their workers " Sometimes, maybe, sometimes, not, in my personal case - not. | ||
| Oldbiker |
Court.....would'nt it be more fun watching someone taking their "armchair" and stuffing it IN their ass Steve | ||
| Ironken |
I wasn't referring to you Court. I know that you have labor experience. I in fact aknowleged you knowing about AWS requirements. As far as that statement you made about, "skill...try it sometime," you have no basis for that comment toward me. And are out of line. I may be the worst welder you have ever seen, or I may be a fine welder. You don't know. In fact, I am in need of recertifying (I'm sure you are aware of the 6 mo. thing required by the AWS and I have not completed any of the AWS d1.1 welds in that time period with my business to have them signed off on to keep my certs alive) I can kill two birds with one stone here with your help. Instead of me going to Vegas to the CWI, you can send me the coupons and processes for the AWS D1.1 (SMAW 3G,3F,4G,4F...I believe that qualifies for all positions 1&2 as well) and you can determine SKILL and have your CWI recertify me saving me $500.00 all in one operation. I'm surprised. To this point, your posts have usually been pin point accurate and have not included emotional shots like, "...blow it out your ass." That was sloppy.....Kenny (Message edited by ironken on September 28, 2007) | ||
| Court |
Kenny: Actually you are right and I apologize. I get a little stirred up, here in New York, after spending years developing skills and then seeing people being told (twice at gunpoint) they "have to" do something. Organized labor in the USA is doing themselves in. My apologies . . . . and on your worst day you are a better welder than I am. I only read the crap, design and administer QA/QC programs for pressure vessels in powerplants now.  By the way . . . I've developed incredible relationships with the leaders of several of NYC's larger Unions with my "You want me cause I am the BEST. . . " line of thinking. I'm an advocate of training, skill, and doing the best you can. My apologies for the terse comments. | ||
| Ironken |
Thanks Court....Its buried....Kenny BTW, referring to your welder that failed. If that were me, I probably would have gave it one more shot. If I failed the second time, I would have prepped the weld to be made (on my own time) for the next guy and you wouldn't have seen me again until I could produce a passing weldment. First time, consistantly! My point is that not all of us pro Union guys are sluffs. You were either raised with a good work ethic or not. (Message edited by ironken on September 28, 2007) | ||
| Tpoppa |
Tpoppa, I look forward to your job being outsourced soon. Thanks. I think you are missing the point. In manufacturing, especially automobile manufacturing the US needs to be able to compete on a global level. It's going to take Efficiency & Flexibility to restore competitiveness to the US auto industry. The UAW has always been afraid of change (see contracts), which directly limits manufacturing flexibility. There are many examples of UAW contracts requiring 12 men to operate a line that can be run by 6...examples of new guys being told to slow down by the UAW old timers...blatantly abusing policies only to have the UAW back them. PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS PROTECTS US JOBS. Do you hear autoworkers in Non-Union Toy, Hon, and Nis plants inside the US complaining that they are paid or treated unfairly? No, ok so what benefit is the UAW actually providing? In the last 10 years the UAW has cost more US jobs than it has saved. | ||
| Kenb |
well i'm just happy they resolved it so they can keep pumping these out 24/7; http://www.xtremegm.com/outlook.jpg we just picked ours up last night. | ||
| Ironken |
The UAW has always been afraid of change (see contracts), Tpoppa. One question; Have you read any UAW contracts? Hearsay doesn't count....Read with your own eyes?} | ||
| X1glider |
"Unions protect workers from getting shafted by companies BS of making one person do the work of 2. Non-union electrician at a printing company...cleans toilets, answers phones, slings paper, moves crap with a forklift. Union electricial in a print shop...does electrical work." I would never expect anyone but the cleaning crew to scrub toilets but I don't see a problem with an electrician getting on a forklift and fetch his own spool of 7-7-7 cable rather than wait for 30 min-1 hour because the other forklift drivers are busy somewhere else. Why would I pay an electrician to sit on his ass and wait that long? Need something? Get it yourself. This "every man has only 1 job" crap bloats the payroll and strains a company's budget. Is it degrading to have to wear another "hat" occasionally? Is it unreasonable? As an engineer, I have to do my job, design, draft, enter data, research vendors, purchase, QC, testing, train end users and do field service occasionally. On top of that I have to keep up with the ever changing world. Should my company hire 6 people if I am perfectly capable of doing it myself? Simply put, my job is achieving an end result. Doing what is necessary to achieve that end result is what I am paid to do. Hell, I'm a mechanical guy and I had a 7 month electrical project to do. It sucked, IMO, not my thing, but I did it because my help was needed. I also did it w/o OT pay for 50-55 hours each week. I would have rather been doing other things that I enjoy, believe me. "In the oilfield I was paided on my ability,seniority is B.S." Seniority is BS. I'd rather retain the best employee, not the one who's been there the longest. The most senior isn't necessarily the best. "Tpoppa, I look forward to your job being outsourced soon." As if welding isn't being outsourced as well? Where I work, we have just started ordering the structures we designed from China and are saving a ton of money over when we were getting it from our vendors in Illinois and Indiana. Having done some business in the past with China, we saw the welding workmanship was equal to our American counterparts. We were simply being taken advantage of. And we have to turn around and sell this to our customers. The choice was obvious for us. Have China weld our structures. Of course, it was a PITA researching their grades of steel to determine if they were acceptable. But we did what we had to to remain competitive and stay alive in this business. We exist not because of our employees, but because of our customers. They won't be our customers for long if our prices are ridiculously high. "In employers where competition for talent is high, job environment, pay, and benefits must be competitive or the talent leaves. Unions serve little purpose here. Why do I need a union to protect me? If my job sucks, work for the next company in line." This is everything I was going for. This environment also fosters drive and innovation. This is what made the USA so great...workers who pushed the envelope to make the USA better than any other country, not being content with where we are currently. "Welcome to the new world where a "qualified", I mean truly qualified and skilled person, will be replacing the guy you "have to use". " This is how it should be. "You know how I have protected my job . . . by being the BEST at what I do. " This is how it should be. "I wasn't referring to you Court." Yep, refering to me. While not ever having been a union member, I have grown up around them and do have friends and family who are union. They all have mixed feelings about it. I'll not even try to claim I know as much as you or Court. I don't. But I can say the unions have been a PITA in my world of business. "My point is that not all of us pro Union guys are sluffs. You were either raised with a good work ethic or not." I wouldn't ever issue a blanket statement that union guys are sluffs either. I've met many highly skilled union members with a good work ethic. A few are even in my family. There's also a few sluffs in my family too, I hate to say. They love to say "that's not my job." I also hate to say that I'd fire them too. You only get one 2nd chance before you're out the door. I just don't believe people are entitled to jobs, the right to work should be earned through hard work. Many unions do make sure their members are trained and certified and keep them on this track throughout their career. Other unions, like the ones I have to put up with in the southern states, are simply organized crime, consisting of poorly skilled workers whose sole purpose is to get something for nothing. These are the ones I have the problem with. Luckily, we move on when this happens and don't use those vendors again. The UAW has always been afraid of change (see contracts), which directly limits manufacturing flexibility. There are many examples of UAW contracts requiring 12 men to operate a line that can be run by 6...examples of new guys being told to slow down by the UAW old timers This is the stuff I always hear about. Obviously, I'm anti-union, but only because I think businesses that have union employees have too much fat that needs to be trimmed. I don't think unions should negotiate salaries and guarantee employment...what the market will bear should do that. Unions should strictly be used for protecting employees rights and guarantee fair treatment under the law. But that is just my opinion. I'll go back to my end of the bar now. | ||
| Ironken |
Yep, refering to me. directly.... Where I work, we have just started ordering the structures we designed from China and are saving a ton of money over when we were getting it from our vendors in Illinois and Indiana. I find that saddening...Sounds like Wal-Mart Seniority is BS. I'd rather retain the best employee, not the one who's been there the longest. The most senior isn't necessarily the best. I see what you are driving at here, but, seniority does quell the ass kisser factor. I'm sure that everybody has seen a situation (non-union) where a poorly qualified person gets the promotion because they suck a little harder or because of their gender or skin color. Can't deny that one! | ||
| Tpoppa |
I don't see a problem with an electrician getting on a forklift and fetch his own spool of 7-7-7 cable rather than wait for 30 min-1 hour because the other forklift drivers are busy somewhere else. Why would I pay an electrician to sit on his ass and wait that long? Need something? Get it yourself. This "every man has only 1 job" crap bloats the payroll and strains a company's budget. +1 Efficiency and Flexibility are 2 major components of competitive, world class manufacturing. | ||
| Jayvee |
My dad was a shop steward for his union from before I was born until he retired couple years ago, and now he's the treasurer of the union retirees assn. His wife, my stepmother, worked for the Union directly for about ever since I can remember, she just retired. We've been a family to "Buy Union" not just "Buy American" ever since I can remember. But I've never had a job that had, allowed, or even needed unions, so never been a member myself. Sadly I find myself agreeing with the 'blasphemous' idea that some Unions may not be helping their members as much as they think. In fact they may illustrate well a couple of things. 1. The law of unintended consequences. (The seniority thing to stop the butt-kissing advantage slowly morphs into the forced employment of lazy or incompetent worker simply due to seniority) 2. Power tends to corrupt, and Union power, where it has existed, has not been immune to this. For a motorcycle-related example, the last Cycle World motorcycle show here was a victim of some Union strong-arm tactics, some vendors complained, I only read about it, did not witness it. I'm sad to think it, but Unions may have outlived their usefulness in certain industries. Other industries are probably still very much in need of them, some of which still don't even have them. I do work with the last Cobol programmer here, by the way, but 300 to 500 of his programmer associates just lost their jobs to India in the last 6 months. I guess none of those Indian guys studied Cobol! | ||
| Tpoppa |
An addition to my post above... Not My Job   | ||
| Court |
I'm thinking that "Outsourcing" the "protection of your job" to the UAW . . . well, ya might wanna think about that. This place was a beehive of activity 3 years ago (NJ dudes correct me if I have the date wrong) and in the meantime new truck sales continue to skyrocket fit the Ford F0150 still the best selling vehicle of all (anyone correct me if that has changed. . .Ford had that distinction with the F-150 for years)      |
