| Author | Message | |||
     Court |
It used to be that about 10% or demos resulted in sales. Now that folks, other than Buell, are doing demo rides I'd expect that figure may have been diluted. Dyna, the government recall process is well documented and is not discretionary. I no longer have time to play inter-troll, so do your research and give us your results. Court | |||
| Dynarider |
Thanks Court, that was the answer I was expecting. | |||
| M2me |
Most likely the most trade in for buells are...old guys on sportsters Hey, I resemble that remark!  | |||
| Buellblastrider |
so does my dad (haha), 58 but we traded in the sporster for a duece. | |||
| Davegess |
Recalls; What little I know is that recalls can be initiated in different ways. One is for NHTSA to examine information they have on crashes and complaints and approach the manufacturer asking for a recall. (They do not do a recal because of a few crashes, there needs to be a fair number of incidents before they will act. Remember the explding SUV tires?) The manufacturer is allowed at this point to do a "voluntary" recall. This means they agree there is a problem and they will follow all the recall steps to correct it. Sometimes the manufacturer will disagree that there is a problem and will fight the recall. If the NHTSA is convince that there isno problem than the issue goes away, if they are not thatn you have an "involutary" recall were the manufacturer is ordered to do the recall by NHTSA. One of these two scenarios is fairly common amoung the car folks. The third way for a recall to happenis for the manufacture to determine that thye have a problem and notify NHTSA that they are instituiting a recall. These are also called "voluntary" but are far different than the first case. EVERY BUELL RECALL has been initiated by Buell. They have discoved problems and corrected well before NHTSA had even heard of a problem. I one case there had been two crashes, both at walking speeds with no one hurt. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority, perhaps all of them, of recalls involvinb Buell and H-D would never have occured if Buell had not started the process. NHTSA would never have seen even a blip on the radar. H-D and Buell have a recall committee. (It is not called this but the name escapes me) This group is charged with looking at warrenty and crash data and determining if there are any safety issues involved in anytihg they see. This group is hat charge with keeping cost down nor are they charged with avoiding negative publicity. No they have one job and that is to see that no one gets hurts because of an error in th edesign, testing or construction of H-D and Buell motorcycles. They are for the most part bikers. They don't want to see there friends get hurt nor do they wan t to see customers get hurt. They will err on the side of caution in every case. Remember the great collapsing shock recall? No bikes sold for months? Every shock replaced? There was not one, repeat not one, failure of the type that caused the recall on any bike that operated on the street. The failure would only occur under very specific circumstances that would never occur on the street. NHTSA would never have heard of this and the possibility of anyone getting hurt were slim BUT Buell did the recall. All this is to say that Buell has and will recall bikes when they need to. They will be very cautious in making this decision erring on the side of rider safety. | |||
| Dynarider |
Thank you dave, that was more along the lines of what i was looking for. Now a question for anyone who feels like answering it. do you feel the bearing issue should be a safety recall or not & why? | |||
| Blake |
The bearings were already recalled by Buell. Maybe someone can post a copy of the letter sent by Buell to all affected XB9 owners. Should they have inserted the word "safety" into the text of the recall? Probably. Lots of motorcycle road racers ride cruisers and standards on the street. They have no desire to ride like an idiot on public roads. | |||
| Dynarider |
The bearings were already recalled by Buell Actually Blake Buell never officially called it a recall at all, upgrade was the word I believe they used. Thats why I asked how did it avoid becoming a safety recall? Thats a serious question & not simply some trolling going on. | |||
| Uwgriz |
I cant see anyone owning an R1 & then being "won over" by an XB. Actually there was a guy at Uke's demo day looking to get rid of his ZX12R to get the Firebolt. | |||
| Csg_inc |
Is this the letter you wanted?
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| Blake |
Thank you David! "Please contact your Buell Motorcycle dealer and arrange an appointment to have the wheel bearings replaced on your motorcycle." Seems pretty obvious to me that Buell wanted everyone to get their bearings replaced. If I were Buell, I would be rigorously monitoring the issue to ensure that all replacements/upgrades have been completed. | |||
| Newfie_buell |
Recalls are generally made for various reasons. 1. Safety 2. Cheaper to repair a failed part early in the life than to make repairs on a whole bunch of parts if the initial part failed. (hmmmmm sounds like Safety to me) Once again Recalls = Safety = Good Risk Management = Less Liability In General its cheaper for a company to recall parts before something happens than it is to pay larger claims. ALL DOLLARS & SENSE!!!!!!!! Its easy to tell I'm back at my real job again this week instead of riding around Newfoundland | |||
| Davegess |
One other thing about recalls. Recalls are forever. You could bring a 20 year old bike into a dealer and the government would expect them to be checked for recalls and than have any that needed to be done, done | |||
| Dynarider |
Buells letter refers to it as a "non-safety-related repair". How could bearings that could lose their lubrication & possibly cause a wheel to lock up, not be considered a safety recall?? Didnt they also put something like an "expiration date" on the allowed time for service? I recall reading it somewhere that you had until some time in June otherwise they werent going to fix it. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority, perhaps all of them, of recalls involvinb Buell and H-D would never have occured if Buell had not started the process. NHTSA would never have seen even a blip on the radar. Would it be unreasonable to assume that since Buell left off the word "safety" that the NHTSA is not even aware of the situation? | |||
| Dynarider |
1 other thing Blake...you point out from the letter that Buell obviously wants you to get it fixed. Well what about the guy who buys a used lil bolt & doesnt get the letter from Buell? If his dealer..if he even has one, perhaps he bought it from a private party..isnt aware of the situation how would he know to get em replaced? My wife still gets letters from Buell about various things with her Blast & she hasnt owned it in almost 2 years...doubt the new owner is getting that info. | |||
| Darthane |
Shazam? You still around and kicking, dude? Send me an e-mail... darthane@comcast.net | |||
| Blackmotorcycle |
Bigsherm9r, You’re not going to get very far on this board discussing this issue. You’re going to get flamed here for decent. It's a funny thing with Buells and Harleys. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't some strange form of mindset against Asians, some mind set left over from the war..something, is going on there., Italian bikes are ok so perhaps it is something related to ?, but at least the Italians take their machines to the races and put their reputation on the line against other brands, so I respect that. Remember when American cars died at 50K miles? If not for the Asian companies like Honda would the American cars ever have gotten better? I have wondered like you why Buell is as it is and this is what I came up with in deciding on my bike riding direction, like you I had a Buell when I started thinking about this. You have two options that I think many have already pointed out too you 1. Keep and love your Buell for what it is. You’re not going to be able to compare it with other bikes, put all the race kit on it you want, but you will have rare unique bike that looks really good. 2. Or give up on it and go with another brand and bike of your choice. 3. I guess you could go in the middle and keep the Buell and buy another type of bike for both. I tried that for a while until I floated a Valve on my Buell and I just could not put another dime into it. The Buell is a rare bike and people don’t see them everyday, they have the Harley Mystic. The design looks are great. The lines are great. They get lots of attention when you’re out. Still it is not a race bred machine and who knows if all of that comes together into a functional package and I think that is where their problems come in. These problems are not identified like they would be with bike derived from a race machine. They do market it as if it is a race bike, you are right. I have thought a great deal on this issue and this is what it came down to for me. You got to decide if you want that attention or do you want a better machine that gets little attention or even none. Seriously, You have to figure out what you want out of a bike. Sometimes I still go out and I park my FZ1 down town with the HD guys hanging out. The non-motorcycle riders love Buells as they walk by and ask what it is. On the other hand the one person who races walks by and he loves your FZ yet that happens like 1 time in a year.. The HD guys treat me like crap and act like my bike is some kind of a disease. I find that funny since I ride the fastest bike there. Not one of them has the power, speed, or reliability of my bike. What they have is an American made motorcycle. Uh what’s that mean? I guess you can tell what decision I made. Anyway I’ll be waiting on the Flames to start but I don’t intend to bash your motorcycles. Just being real and covering the pros and cons as I see them. Someday I hope Buell Does get it. I’m a little competitive with the Japanese myself and would love to see a Buell win some races. | |||
| Msetta |
Dynarider, Do you think it is Buell's responsibility to track every time a bike is sold to a new owner and make sure that they get the recall information? Don't be ridiculous. Anyone who buys a used product should be researching and asking the right questions about the product they are purchasing, such as recalls, accident claims, etc... To expect Buell to track every second, third, whatever owner in a private sale so that they can ensure the recall was done is not reasonable or realistic. Setta edited by msetta on June 16, 2003 | |||
| Dynarider |
One other thing about recalls. Recalls are forever. You could bring a 20 year old bike into a dealer and the government would expect them to be checked for recalls and than have any that needed to be done, done Dave, then why does Buell seem to be rejecting folks who are bringing in bikes to have the bad shocks replaced? I hear quite a bit where the owners are required to cough up $100, its a recall why would it cost anything? Or is this simply a case of 2nd & 3rd generation shocks that are taking a dump & they arent being covered? | |||
| Dynarider |
Setta, if its a safety related issue than yes I would expect them to do so. Its not that hard nowdays with computers. They could have a database with all the VIN #s in it & whenever a bike was transfered to a new owner the database would be updated. You think just because they couldnt or wouldnt contact a new owner that it would absolve them of any responsibility in the event of an accident involving these bearings??? And if it would become a "safety recall" instead of a letter sent out informing the original owners of an "upgrade" then it would be listed in the papers & other areas. I know in my local paper that once a week they have a section that lists recalls for items like baby toys, toaster ovens, auto related, etc. | |||
| Blake |
Dyna, What is different about a recall? The same 2nd owner scenario applies. If you are so concerned about the issue, I suggest you write a letter to Buell. Your relentless badgering here is not likely to yield any positive results. Write a letter to NTHSA. Anything but blather on and on about it here. Please. | |||
| Msetta |
Dyna, exactly. That is how other manufacturers do it, they put an ad in the paper. What if some owners don't get the local paper? Do you think Ford tracks every single private sale of their vehicles that they do a recall on and contact each unique customer? Do you think Honda does that? I am not sure why you expect Buell to do more than what is generally accepted. | |||
| Dynarider |
Blake, if someone would answer the question "why wasnt the bearing issue a safety recall?" This would be over. Court is supposedly "an insider" so perhaps he would have some insight into exactly why it was not. Im being dead serious here & not fucking around at all, I just want to know how these decisions are made & by whom? Peoples lives could potentially be at stake & yet some people want the problem to just "go away". Dave's answer helped somewhat, but it didnt explain this particular topic. A letter to the NHTSA sounds like a great idea, a letter to Buell is nothing more than a waste of paper. Setta, the reason I would expect it of Buell is due to the small number of vehicles that were actually involved. It wouldnt take much work at all on their behalf. Obviously if we were talking about 500,000 goldwings the logistics alone would be overwhelming. I do not want to see 1 person hurt or worse as a result of something that a company like Buell could actively prevent if they chose to so. | |||
| Dynarider |
Well I went & did some investigation & since Buell does not claim the bearings are a safety issue they are not required by law to contact the NHTSA about it. The NHTSA only gets involved if the company states it is a safety issue or if as in many cases there is court action & lawsuits are filed. This is from the NHTSA site "Manufacturers are obligated to attempt to notify owners of recalled products. For vehicles, that means manufacturers merge their own records of vehicle purchasers with current state vehicle registration information. For equipment, where state registration records do not exist, manufacturers are obligated to notify their distribution chain and known purchasers of the recalled equipment. However, even if you do not receive a notification, if your vehicle, child seat, or other item of equipment is involved in a safety recall, the manufacturer is obligated to provide a free remedy." So Setta yes do I not only feel Buell should contact any & all present as well as future owners, they would be required to do so by law. | |||
| Dynarider |
Do you think Ford tracks every single private sale of their vehicles that they do a recall on and contact each unique customer? Do you think Honda does that? Required by law. | |||
| Msetta |
Dyna, If that is what the law requires then I am sure that is what Buell will do for recalls, they have not hesitated in the past. Thanks for keeping me up to date on what is required by the manufacturer. | |||
| Court |
>>>Court is supposedly "an insider" That's an inaccurate statement and I've gone to inordinate lengths to qualify posts with "PERSONAL" opinion and to make quite clear that I am not an employee nor retained by Buell. I've been riding Buells since 1989 though and can say unequivocally that the folks at Buell are honest well-motivated folks. The original bearings simply did not have the life expected, the replacements do. You Goodyear tires will be a safety issue if you run them 100,000 miles. The bearings were not a safety issue. Buell has gone way overboard (Dave Gess cited two good examples) and has done two recalls for items that never (save the two innocuous events Dave described, both in Europe) manifested themselves on the street. In the case of one recall, it was only Buell sophistication in test and analysis that allowed them to learn that a potential problem COULD exist, albeit under a pretty far fetched scenario, but they acted in good faith just in case. There have been several cases where owners of XB's experienced the early bearing failure and to the best of my knowledge, Buell jumped through hoops to get these folks taken care of. I'm sure you'll find someone they didn't. By the way, at least one foreign manufacturer is quite impressed with the stride made by Buell. That speaks volumes to me. Court (Mu connections, given my background, are better in The White House, than Buell) | |||
| Dynarider |
There have been several cases where owners of XB's experienced the early bearing failure and to the best of my knowledge, Buell jumped through hoops to get these folks taken care of. Court I know of several of those cases, but the question remains unanswered on why the bearing issue is not a safety issue? You state they are not a safety issue, yet if they do fail & have on several occasions & can lead to either front or rear wheel lock up...both of which I would hope you agree with are very dangerous....why & how are they not considered safety?? I have my own opinion on it & it leans more towards the "oh no, not another recall" theory. If I am wrong then please tell me how wheel bearings in a bike that could & have failed are not safety related? | |||
| Davegess |
The bearing issue is seemingly not a safety issue because bearings have a life expexdency and when they exceed this they will fail. Buell simply decreased the life expexdency of the bearings. They changed the recomended service interval from what 10000 to 6000 miles? They are saying that any miles over 6000 and you are risking bearing failure. There are many parts on a bike that when they exceed the recomended service interval may become dangerous. Buell is than going one step farther and offering to replace the original bearing with a better bearing. Buell would be within their rights to simply reduce the service interval and leave us with crappy bearings. If there are more than a handful of catastropic failures prior to 6000 miles than I suspect that Buell will notify NHTSA and a recall will happen. If you feel the situation is dangerous by all means contact the NHTSA that is how they learn of many problems. | |||
| Tripper |
greg's philosophy Time to implement the Nike slogan: "Just Do It" |
Bearing letter