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Sportsman
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 12:03 am: | 
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Maybe they're pissed off he had the Lightning series with FUSA. They "gave" him Pro Thunder, maybe they feel he was undermining their series. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 12:11 am: |
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"Gave him Pro Thunder"? I don't think so. What I understood was Buell paid to keep Pro Thunder going after the original sponsor dropped out. Then the AMA cancelled the class several years later. Don't think your idea is right. OK, who's next? |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 12:21 am: |
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That's why it's in quotes |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 03:29 am: |
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http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6258
Is AMAPR FINALLY cracking down on the cheaters? It is a good sign. Hope they keep it up. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 03:49 am: |
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However... How is it remotely fair to only penalize Spies 20 points for his illegitimate race win at Road Atlanta while penalizing Duhamel and Zemke 20 points AND gridding them on the back row at Pike's Peak for the exact same infraction?
Strange how AMAPR kept quite about the Spies penalty but immediately announced the Honda infractions and penalties. Kinda makes you say... "hmmmm."
Back to the main topic....
So JQ, AMAPR shouldn't let the Ducati's race because they weren't invented soon enough?
You make the point that the popular bikes are the ones that should be competing in AMAPR... Okay that seems like a fair approach, then answer this.. How many Buell XB9's need to sell before they should be provided a venue in AMAPR?
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Crusty
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 05:59 am: |
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quote:How many Buell XB9's need to sell before they should be provided a venue in AMAPR?
A boatload or even two. Pro Thunder didn't die because AMAPR had it in for Buell. Pro Thunder died because the majority of race fans found it boring to watch. The majority of those fans ride inline fours, and sneer at Buells. As soon as a significant number of them start riding Buells, then there will be more interest, and AMA Pro Racing will find a place for Buells. AMA Pro Racing continuously surveys spectators to see how they can improve their series and make racing more attractive to more people.
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Grndskpr
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 07:54 am: |
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Did anybody catch last weeks edition of 2wheel tues???I waited to bring this up, just to see if anybody else would, K.S. said he was part of the AMAPR rules making, yet he is an AMA board member, so how does this apply, and do you think the entire AMA is bad or do they just need a little input, or maybe a little encouragement??
Roger,
Would it help if anony called himself by some other pseudonym? Rest assured that we don't allow just anyone to post anonymously and that they do indeed have valid reason for doing so.
You are correct in this matter, it just seems unfortunate, because of the FACT that there is no way to know whom this person is, hence now way to know(for the rest of us) if what he says is true or false, the information provided can not be verified, and for all we know this could be a 14 year old girl reading past editions of RRW(mine go back several years) You have however unmasked several Anons, and i am sure there is a valid reason, but you would have to agree, for most of us, the information provided is moot
Roger |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 10:47 am: |
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quote:So, once again, AMAPR screws Buell, on purpose. I mean, it's pretty blatantly obvious looking at the rules.
Yes, but because of his comments at the AMA due to the Boxer Cup at Daytona, like I pointed out earlier.
The AMA requested an apology for those comments.
I would not expect the AMA to do anything "for" air cooled bikes in terms of rules or where they race until that happens.
Yamaha is the only one not caught cheating yet. THey swept the top four spots in the Supersport race at Pikes peak, and Pascal Picotte finished 8th on a "privateer 107 hp" R6.
Jason Disalvo finished THIRD in th Superstock event or a real 600. BTW a 636 Kawasaki won, but this time it was Tony Meier at the controls.
Yamaha has sold 65,000 R6's to date, they'll sell a bunch more for sure based on their current racing results. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 11:01 am: |
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I don't understand the AMA response demanding an apology. From their own press release...
1) Erik's big beef seems to be that two few brands are showing up on the podium and that costs are getting too high. In particular he mentions vanishing guzzi's, leverdas, and triumphs.
Is this not an even more legitimate beef today? What will the new AMA rules do to bring these brands back? Does anyone honestly believe that the current rule set will do *anything* besides lead to domination of most classes by big Japanese brands and no one else? Ducatti may be on the radar, but not unless they transform their bikes into something that looks much more like the current Japanese design template then their current bikes.
2) Part of the AMAPR response indicating that Erik was being unreasonable was based around their statement that the pro thunder spec bikes can now run in 750 superstock... But is this still true?
Heck, my understanding is that the pro thunder bikes would not even be legal against the 1000cc inline fours. Even if it is legal, saying the pro thunder spec bikes should race against the 1000's is *way* different then saying they should race against the 750's. You can't change the 750 class to a 1000 class and pretend you then met the request to race against 750's. You just screwed the 750's in addition to screwing the pro thunder bikes, thats all.
Like I said, I am probably just confused, I don't know the history of the whole thing, and I don't understand all the various class rules, either where they are now or where they were.
I do know that if any "special class" races deserved to be run at Daytona, it deserved to be the same engine configuration (aircooled pushrod Vtwin) that 90% of the fans rode down there on to go watch the races... Not some german horizontal twin that is more about touring then sport (but still a great bike).
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Elvis
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 11:01 am: |
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José,
Are you saying the AMAPR actually does have something against Buell because of Erik's comments? That's a bit of a bombshell isn't it?
Please correct me if I'm misinterpretting your statement. I've only read this thread in bits and pieces, so I may be missing something. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 03:52 pm: |
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Yes. Bombshell? Yes it is, but the press release would give you that impression when you read the whole thing:
quote:11/18/2002
AMA Pro Racing Responds To Erik Buell's Comments
Copyright 2002, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc.
This just in from AMA Pro Racing:
Your website recently published an interview with Mr. Erik Buell concerning AMA Pro Racing’s replacement of Buell Pro Thunder with the BMW BoxerCup at Daytona. It’s clear from the interview that Mr. Buell was under the impression that AMA Pro Racing replaced the Pro Thunder Championship with a BMW BoxerCup Championship - an incorrect assumption. For the benefit of your readers, a single round of the BMW BoxerCup Series, managed by BMW and sanctioned by UEM, will run in conjunction with the AMA Superbike race at Daytona. AMA Pro Racing has not added another class to its Superbike Championship.
Mr. Buell’s comments regarding Merrill Vanderslice, AMA Pro Racing and me are patently false. I assure you that Merrill and I are not liars or lunatics, and that AMA Pro Racing is not “out of control.” In fact, the growth experienced in the AMA Superbike Championship in recent years validates generally good management by our organization. Since 1999, estimates show that our live television audience has doubled, our average event purse has increased approximately 32% and our race tracks are safer. Significant investment has been made in personnel and equipment to improve operations and credential holders can comment on rules prior to their enactment. The result? The 2003 AMA Superbike grid is likely to be the most competitive in the world and the Championship is well-positioned for continued growth. That Mr. Buell chooses to describe these results as “out of control”, “bizarre” and “a tragedy” shows a self-interested perspective all too common in sports today.
Mr. Buell’s comments concerning Buell Motorcycle Company’s support for the series and the implication that AMA Pro Racing forced rules changes upon the class are a contradiction of his letters to AMA Pro Racing dated October 5th, 2000 and July 19th, 2001.
In his October 2000 letter, Mr. Buell describes the then current trends in Pro Thunder as “disturbing” citing:
1) “the number of brands on the grid is down” 2) “the number of brands on the podium is way down” and 3) “expense of the class is up.” Continuing, “Triumph is out, BMW is out, Moto Guzzi, Laverda, etc. Buell is the only one left trying to support the class”
In that letter, Mr. Buell requests two changes to the 2001 technical rules for Pro Thunder, those being:
“water-cooled multi-valve twins limited to 750cc, and a weight limit of 380 pounds for all bikes.” He then states: “Quite frankly, if the current rules for Pro Thunder continue for 2001, we will probably pull out”.
New technical rules for Pro Thunder based on comments from competitors, the road race advisory board and Mr. Buell were subsequently enacted. Those new technical regulations met Mr. Buell’s stated objectives.
In his July 19, 2001 letter, following-up discussions with AMA Pro Racing technical staff, Mr. Buell ranks combining Pro Thunder and 750 Supersport (now Superstock) as his “far preferred” alternative, stating that:
“we are willing to step up to this challenge and invest in the future of the class. This could include class sponsorship and/or team sponsorship to ensure competitive motorcycles are on the track for a good show.”
Subsequently, Pro Thunder equipment was made eligible for competition in the 750 Supersport (now Superstock) class. Therefore, Mr. Buell’s statement in his interview that he informed AMA Pro Racing “we won’t be able to run in that (Superstock) class, it’s a different level from where we are” is simply untrue. Is he suggesting now that he no longer plans to invest in the future of the class?
It gives me no great pleasure to discredit Mr. Buell in this manner, but his unwillingness to correct the record leaves our organization no other option. We are all passionate about racing. That very passion drives us to focus our lives on this sport. In this case, it appears Mr. Buell’s passion overpowered his judgment and his remarks were inaccurate and unfortunate. Mr. Buell owes AMA Pro Racing an apology.
Regards,
Scott Hollingsworth
CEO, AMA Pro Racing
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Elvis
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 04:11 pm: |
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I guess the reason I would call it a bombshell is that the idea that any sanctioning body would prevent participation by any competitor because they held a "grudge" would be completely unacceptable to most people. I know Blake has been suggesting that (but we always just assume he's a bit of a kook, don't we?). Since you have generally seemed more objective in your posts, and have less of a tendency to back Buell just because it's Buell, I guess I'm a bit shocked that you would think that was a possibility.
As an example, Joe Paterno went off on quite a few NCAA officials last year. He probably has some people who don't think much of him, but the idea that they would intentionally make calls against him or prevent him from competing in some other way would be frightening.
It just seems that our country is based on the idea of people freely expressing concerns about the "powers that be". The "powers that be" in response need to remain impartial and not lash out at someone who speaks out against them.
If there is even the possibility that AMAPR is setting policy based on personal feelings, I think that's pretty big.
edited by elvis on June 02, 2003 |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 05:33 pm: |
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The problem is not only what Elvis so astutely points out, but that the request for an apology is based upon outright lies.
JQ, the following is a lie...
quote:In his July 19, 2001 letter, following-up discussions with AMA Pro Racing technical staff, Mr. Buell ranks combining Pro Thunder and 750 Supersport (now Superstock) as his “far preferred” alternative, stating that:
“we are willing to step up to this challenge and invest in the future of the class. This could include class sponsorship and/or team sponsorship to ensure competitive motorcycles are on the track for a good show.”
Subsequently, Pro Thunder equipment was made eligible for competition in the 750 Supersport (now Superstock) class. Therefore, Mr. Buell’s statement in his interview that he informed AMA Pro Racing “we won’t be able to run in that (Superstock) class, it’s a different level from where we are” is simply untrue. Is he suggesting now that he no longer plans to invest in the future of the class?
The falacy of the above assertion, that Mr. Buell lied, was already exposed in prior discussion here. The turth is that AMAPR gave Buell a choice between FX and SStk, Buell decided that given only those two choices that SStk was the preferred venue of the two, DUH. Neither was fair to Buell ro Ducati, and Mr. Buell made that fact known, that the current Pro Thunder machines would NOT be competitive in SStk against the GSXR750s. But being the competitior and positive minded individual that he is, Mr. Buell agreed to give it a go and to plan to support the class as best he could. I know for a fact that significant plans were underway to do just that. Then Buell discovered AMAPR's plans to change the class rules to allow 1,000cc IL4's.
Now I ask you... who owes who an apology?!
Ask Mr. Holingsworth to provide the text of the rest of Mr. Buell's letter, you know, all but the two little snipets that he quoted.
Why not let them race?... (Ducati Twins in SB, Ducati Twins in SS, Buell in FX, Buell in SS)
edited by blake on June 02, 2003 |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 06:18 pm: |
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Crusty,
Please provide the results of the poll that shows that race fans were not interested in the Pro Thunder races. Like I've said before, I don't buy that assertion at all. My experience at Daytona in 2001 was exactly opposite of what you claim. And the truth is that anyone with a modicum of marketing savy and the resources to employ/enact it could have promoted Pro Thunder into an extremely popular series in America. How many Sportster and Harley enthusiasts with aversions to the machines of Japan Inc could have been drawn into the fold of AMAPR Racing fans if AMAPR had simply marketed the series even just a little? How many Pro Thunder races were televised? It sure seems a lot more interesting, having two completely different and somewhat exotic machines going head to head in a hotly contested racing series, versus a bunch of 600cc clones. Why not let them all race together? Why not make Supersport a true stock bike race. The AMAPR says they want to simplify things, okay, race 100% stock bikes, straight off the showroom floor, tires, brakes, suspension, bodywork, EVERYTHING, 100% stock. Make them use pump gas. Let rival teams choose the machines of their competitors from a local shop, right off the showroom floor. Call it AMAPR Stock. Add only a proper liquid tight belly pan and replace the antifreeze with straight water. Why not enact rules like that? There is one answer.
There's not much difference between sabotaging and ignoring the development of a new racing class. It all started with AMAPR ignoring the advice of the man who conceived of PT in the first place. In direct opposition to the advice of the man who conceived of PT and of others interested in the success of the new class, AMAPR let in the big water cooled Triumph triples and the Ducati 748's. The result was a two brand, Buell versus Ducati 748, series instead of the Buell, Ducati, BMW, Guzzi, Laverda, etc series originally envisioned.
Again, all this discussion is interesting, but I've yet to hear a valid answer as to why Buell, Ducati, and others are excluded from racing competitively in AMAPR.
Roger,
What information provided by any of the anonymous posters are you disputing?  |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 09:42 pm: |
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quote:Then Buell discovered AMAPR's plans to change the class rules to allow 1,000cc IL4's
That is simply not correct.
Erik Buell's comments in November 2002 were prompted by the announcement of the Boxer Cup event at Daytona.
The 2003 Superstock season began at Daytona in March of this year, and Kawasaki has been consistently beating the 750's with their factory prepped/ridden 636s. The class limit for this year is still 750cc for IL4's, 1350cc for air cooled twins.
The proposed new AMA class structure was presented on April 22, 2003.
Are you saying Buell knew what he AMA was going to do 6 months before they announced it?
edited by José_quiñones on June 02, 2003 |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 09:44 pm: |
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quote:Ducati Twins in SB, Ducati Twins in SS, Buell in FX, Buell in SS
Yes, no, yes, NO.
Ducati 748 and Buell 1336 in FX? Yes. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 10:09 pm: |
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quote:I guess the reason I would call it a bombshell is that the idea that any sanctioning body would prevent participation by any competitor because they held a "grudge" would be completely unacceptable to most people.
Well, I don't think it has happened like that.
The last thing that the AMA did at Erik's request was to combine the Pro Thunder bikes with the Superstock (750cc) class.
Then he said what he said on November 1, 2002, including this little nugget:
quote:The sad part of this is this is not the AMA. This is AMA Pro Racing, which is a different group, and they are out of control. I know you’re going to write this stuff up and maybe this is going to kill my future ever of dealing with AMA, but they know they lied to me. So they can deal with that. The deal is they’re never going to speak to me or anything, but that’s okay with me because I’m not sure I ever want to speak to them again, the people who did this. Screw it.
The AMA proposed the new classes in April of this year, creating the new FX class which would pit the 250GP, 750cc twins (Ducati's) against 600's, all highly modified.
Who's not invited to the FX party? Air Cooled twins, who have been kept in the Superstock class as originally requested by Erik Buell. The AMA says so itself in their FAQ about the proposed classes.
quote:Considering its grid is made up largely of one brand, is there still a need for the Superstock class?
Absolutely. Until 2003, the Superbike class was primarily based on 750cc motorcycles and for the past two decades, 750s represented the best of sport bike design. With the emergence of lightweight, big-bore sport bikes that has changed, however there is still a devoted following of 750s. By keeping this class and expanding it to include multi-cylinder machines up to 1000cc (and continuing to include twins up to 1350cc) we will see increased participation among more riders and brands. This class allows minimal modifications and is the place for racers to establish themselves as they move toward the premier Superbike class.
There was a 30 day comment period where "stakeholders" were allowed to make comments on the proposed classes.
If Erik did not call the AMA during this comment period, and the AMA did not call Erik, who would have told the AMA that the 1336cc air cooled twins had no business in the new Superstock class and should be moved over to the FX class? Willie G, maybe?
So it's not a conspiracy, just a simple pissing match.
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Blake
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 11:01 pm: |
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JQ,
What is incorrect in my description of the turn of events above? I simply explained that Buell in no way owes AMAPR an apology, and that in fact AMAPR owes Buell an apology for the way they've treated Buell.
My perception of the unfolding relation between Buell and AMAPR is as follows...
1999?...
Buell: If you let the Ducati 748's into Pro Thunder it will kill the rest of the competition. They'll drop out cause the price to compete will be too much.
AMAPR: We don't care, Ducati is bugging us about letting them race their 748 in Supersport and we need to placate them somehow. We don't want to let them race in Supersport.
Buell: Why not? FIM does.
AMAPR: We don't want to be bothered with having to manage the rules for different displacement machines and we already have enough brands represented in Supersport.
Buell: Okay, we'll try to step up to meet the challenge of racing the 748 in Pro Thunder.
2000...
AMAPR: We'd like to keep the PT series going but we are short on sponsorship.
Buell: Okay, we'll sponsor it.
2001...
Buell: We just cannot compete with the big bore 800cc versions of the 748, we'd like a rules adjustment to even the field between the Buells and Ducatis in Pro Thunder.
AMAPR: Okay, but we'll wait till the last possible moment so the Ducati racers will be very much inconvenienced. Maybe a bunch of them will be upset enough to drop out of the series. We don't care.
2002...
AMAPR: We've decided to kill PT, it makes things too complicated for us.
Buell: That is unfortunate, we are willing to support the class. But if that's your decision, how about letting us sponsor a Buell Lightning type of series at AMAPR events?
AMAPR: No we are now totally against any single brand racing series. We'll let you race the PT bikes in Superstock or FX if you really want.
Buell: Our PT bikes will not be competitive in either of those classes. We would be fairly competitive in Supersport. Why not let us and Ducati race there?
AMAPR: Your choices are Superstock or Formula Extreme, take it or leave it; if you want to field a bike in an AMAPR class, those are your two choices; pick one or take a hike. We don't want to deal with rules for different displacements and we already have enough brands represented in Supersport.
Buell: If that's our only alternative, we'll try our best to step up and compete in the Superstock class. We'll see if we cannot get some competitive race bikes built to help more dealers become active in AMAPR.
AMAPR: We are very excited to announce that the BMW Boxer Cup will be visiting Daytona in 2003! (We know what we told Buell about not wanting to support a single brand series again, but our lack of integrity has already been well documented; if Buell gets upset, we'll just do whatever it takes to discredit him. There are enough people out there who are gullible enough to swallow whatever we shovel out, we'll be able to continue operating, business as usual.)
Buell: I'm really upset with AMAPR, I feel like they have not been honest with me and do not have the best interests of racing or racers in America at heart.
AMAPR: Buell said he preferred racing in Superstock and would support the class. Buell is a liar and owes me an appology.
2003...
AMAPR: Let's really screw Buell, he's trying to put together some competitive Buell racing machines to have a go in Superstock. Let's raise the displacement for IL4's in that class so Buells won't stand a chance in hell of being able to compete in 2004. All Buell's efforts will be for naught. We'll show him.
Buell: FUSA here we come.
If I'm wrong in any of the above, please correct me. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 11:31 pm: |
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JQ,
Are you actually contending that AMAPR did not realize that they were rendering 1,350cc Buells completely uncompetitive by raising the displacement to 1,000cc's for IL4s? Are you contending that someone needed to point that out to AMAPR?
If that is true, then I guess that explains a whole lot about the way AMAPR have changed all the class rules. They are a bunch of imbeciles? hahahaha That's rich.
What's the difference between a "pissing match" and AMAPR wielding their power as a way to seek retribution against Buell for something he said?
Answer... a pissing match involves a war of words, not concrete tangible action against the opponent. Which is the case if what you say is true? If AMAPR enacted rules in an effort to punish Buell for his stated opinions, that is not a pissing match. That is blatant corruption and is a damn serious and scandalous thing. I'd even venture to say that if it could be proven beyond a preponderance of doubt, it would be actionable in a court of law to the tune of some major compensatory damages. Wanna change your opinion on that scenario now?
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Dynarider
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 12:36 am: |
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If AMAPR enacted rules in an effort to punish Buell for his stated opinions, that is not a pissing match. That is blatant corruption and is a damn serious and scandalous thing. I'd even venture to say that if it could be proven beyond a preponderance of doubt, it would be actionable in a court of law to the tune of some major compensatory damages.
Blake, a certain company that begins with the letter B is doing just that to a certain individual right now. If you want to know just e-mail me, but I am not going to air the dirty laundry here..yet. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 07:21 am: |
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You are close until the end:
AMAPR: Buell said he preferred racing in Superstock and would support the class. Buell is a liar and owes me an appology.
FUSA: We have this Thunderbike class for all you ex Pro Thunder types to come race with us.
Buell: FUSA here we come. We'll offer contingencies too. Bye bye AMA, and no contingencies for anybody racing a Buell in AMA.
March 2003: Daytona, the most exciting race was the BMW race, by all accounts of those who were there and saw it on TV. AMA happy, they might actually bring it back next year. Only one Buell in Superstock, it finishes 26th.
April 2003...
AMAPR: Let's revise our rules to reflect the current market. Let's raise the displacement for IL4's in Superstock to 1000cc. Let's create a new Formula Extreme that will finally pit the 750 twins and the two strokes against the 600cc IL4's. What about the air cooled twins, they should be in FX too, right? Well we have not heard from Mr. Buell since November, and his last wish was to put them in Superstock. Other than Daytona, there have been no Buells entered in Superstock this year, so they have not supported the class as they claimed that they would. So if he does not want to call us or participate in our events, why should we do him any other favors?}
The displacement limit this year for Superstock is still 750cc for IL4's and 1350cc for air cooled twins. It is not 1000cc yet, that will be next year so your time line is incorrect.
If Buell was working on something for AMA, how would it have been different than what they are currently racing in FUSA? If they were going to come out with a XB9RR for AMA purposes, why is it not available for FUSA purposes?
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Grndskpr
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 07:57 am: |
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Roger,
What information provided by any of the anonymous posters are you disputing?
Any and all, since all information given under an Anon title is not provable, it renders any argument moot IE:
I know the absolute truth behind some of those legends, and they cheat in every way they can possibly get away with. And the AMAPR group doesn't much give a damn...God help you if you're a privateer or a small company, though.
or
Don't make statements about areas on which you have minimal knowledge. The pictures of tires are from an H2R, which no one used because they were slow, unreliable, and peaky as all hell (the reason for the tire wear). Dale's tire wear issue was not common, any more than the tire explosions at Road Atlanta in the most recent Superbike race.
I am not saying that these statements are false, but if you ask others on the board to back up what they say, well then everybody should back up what they say, correct???If not please let me know
March 2003: Daytona, the most exciting race was the BMW race, by all accounts of those who were there and saw it on TV.
This is far from true, a person i know, who always goes to daytona, was not fond of the BMW race at all. he found it boring, but not because of the racing, he just hates spec classes, i saw the race on tv and found it to be a great race, but again it is a spec class, and that has its own problems
Roger |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 09:33 am: |
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quote:What about the air cooled twins, they should be in FX too, right? Well we have not heard from Mr. Buell since November, and his last wish was to put them in Superstock.
C'mon José, you really think that AMAPR is not going to put the Buells in a remotely fair class because Erik never asked them too? Give me a break!
If Erik was allowed to dictate rules to the AMAPR, those are *not* the ones he would have dictated. Rather, you would see XB9's mixing it up with the 600's (where they might not be competitive in the series, but would probably generate some interesting races on particular courses).
Answer the following questions:
1) Do you believe it is even remotely fair or equitable to class the Buells with 1000cc inline fours?
2) Do you believe Buell wanted Buells racing 1000cc inline fours? Or heck, even 750cc inline fours?
3) Do you believe that the AMAPR folks believe that Buells can race competitively with 1000cc inline fours?
4) Do you believe the AMAPR folks believe that Buell wants their bikes racing against 1000cc inline fours?
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S320002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 02:10 pm: |
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Grndskpr,
"Any and all, since all information given under an Anon title is not provable, it renders any argument moot..."
How does posting under a pseudonym such as Grndskpr, or S320002 or a real name such as Merril Vanderslice or Bill Clinton make information provable?
2+2=4, F=ma and I can walk on water._Anon
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman."_Bill Clinton
"Any and all, since all information given under an Anon title is not provable, it renders any argument moot..."_Roger
The statement made by Anon is true and provable.
The statement made by Bill Clinton depends on what woman he was talking about and what the definition of sexual relations is so it may or may not be provable.
The statement made by Roger is false.
Greg |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 02:30 pm: |
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How does posting under a pseudonym such as Grndskpr, or S320002 or a real name such as Merril Vanderslice or Bill Clinton make information provable?
Because we are talking about racing, for example:
S320002 AKA Greg Tonn ph#(928)636-4####
i could look up a name on the internet, compare it to back issues of RRW or Cycle news and see if Anon is actually a racer IE the quote:
I know the absolute truth behind some of those legends, and they cheat in every way they can possibly get away with. And the AMAPR group doesn't much give a damn...God help you if you're a privateer or a small company, though.
See where this is going, if you make a statement like i know the racers, you are a racer or work with them, easy to find out and prove, kinda like finding an adress on the net, not really that hard, otherwise a baseless statement made on the internet means nothing, catch the drift???
hence makeing my statement true
Here is another example, we were talking about the RR1000, remeber, and some Anon came on and basicaly said you were wrong, you bought it hook line and sinker, never asking who that person was, could have been a kid, could have been anybody, i choose not to belive everything i read and like to find factual information to back up the posts i read, if it is actually facts i am looking for, get it(some times its just horse play and fun, some times its trolling, and sometimes i dont care)
Roger |
S320002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 04:58 pm: |
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Grndskpr,
"Any and all, since all information given under an Anon title is not provable, it renders any argument moot..."
Once again, your premise is FALSE. Posting under Anon does not make a statement unprovable nor does it render it moot.
"i could look up a name on the internet, compare it to back issues of RRW or Cycle news and see if Anon is actually a racer..."
What if Anon were not a racer but the guy who built the bike, or a pit crew member, or tire rep or an AMA Tech Official, or the photographer who took the pictures. How much information might you find on him then? Whether or not a person is a racer does nothing to prove or disprove the statements he might make (with one exception).
As to getting information from RRW, Cycle World, the internet or other media sources; I have been the subject of interviews and articles and know from experience that the "facts" are rarely all correct.
Speaking for myself, knowing that your middle name begins with A, that you are 34 years old and your phone number does not improve your credibility in this forum. Well thought out and logical statements add to it. Straight answers to questions also do wonders for a persons credibility.
"Here is another example, we were talking about the RR1000, remeber, and some Anon came on and basicaly said you were wrong, you bought it hook line and sinker, never asking who that person was..."
I remember quite well. How do you know I don't already know who that Anon was? I made a mistake and I admitted to it. If you want to check into it you will find that Anon is correct.
Admitting a mistake helps remind you not to make it again. Denying it or trying to blame it on someone else makes you look foolish.
Not all information from Anons is correct or provable. But neither is all information from the rest of the BB members. In fact, this particular thread contains several opinions that are based on very little fact.
Greg |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 05:28 pm: |
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(with one exception).
What exception would that be???
Speaking for myself, knowing that your middle name begins with A, that you are 34 years old and your phone number does not improve your credibility in this forum.
The day i look for credibility on the internet, is the day i would like you to shoot me, credibility and respect go hand in hand, and i look for neither here
If you decide that posting and requesting fact in an anon fashion is ok with you,great, i however have decided that while it makes some sence to protect ones job or position, i feel it is wrong to post information in an anon fashion, that makes one sound superior, if you want to be the big mouse, you have to stick you neck in the trap to get the cheese, again belive what you like, i just dont feel that posting behind an anon makes for a beleviable post, again thats me, but i of course can see your side of the issue, but please, please dont remind me of my age, that was cruel and below the belt, hell untill you posted that i thought i was still 33
thanks
Roger |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 06:18 pm: |
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The anonymous contributors here (yes there are more than one) have more credibility than AMAPR, of that I am certain.  |
Turnagain
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 01:28 pm: |
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quote:The anonymous contributors here (yes there are more than one)...
Maybe you can request they use some kind of signature, much like Anonymous R does.
(^^^ ^^^) |
Crusty
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 11:01 pm: |
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quote:The anonymous contributors here (yes there are more than one) have more credibility than AMAPR, of that I am certain.
Not to me. |
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