| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Actually, my bad, upon closer inspection it looks like the primary final drive chain (between tranny and swingarm) is near the centerline of the bike, so it wouldn't put much of any yawing torsion into the swingarm, and it wouldn't tend to pull the swingarm laterally either. The secondary final drive chain (between swingarm and rear sprocket) would impart yawing torsion into the swingarm, but that is only an internal load with good structural load path for reaction and so would not likely cause a problem. Interesting. Feet too close together on a road racing machine would seem to be a problem for rider stability and for hanging off too. | ||
| Rocketman |
Next time you speak to that bloke tell him I need a copy of the timing data for a Barton. . . . Call him yourself. Nova Racing 01733 210082 Rocket | ||
| Androidgobotron |
did he say Dick Lover? seriously... interesting ideas, but a long ways from computer model to working prototype. i'm sure the pontiac aztek looked awesome on paper! (Message edited by androidgobotron on June 08, 2007) | ||
| Rocketman |
Baloney, on account of I've stated technical facts to support my criticisms and I have the formal education and professional expertise to back them up. So you say. But I haven't heard of your credentials working within the automotive industry. Two, four or more wheels. See, I work within the automotive industry. Served my time on motorcycles. Have earned my living as a motorcycle mechanic. To this day I am still in the automotive industry, but because I have not mass produced a motorcycle, despite my many and varied talents within the automotive field, you consider I'm not qualified to offer up criticism of Buell motorcycles. That despite my ownership, rebuilding from the ground up of my own Buell, and knowledge gained from being around the marque for nearly a decade. Yet you consider yourself qualified to judge, criticise, challenge or whatever, the Spirit concept from the viewing of a website simply because you're a qualified engineer. You're a hypocrite if you can't see how elitist that is of you. And no, your coy remarks are not excuse at all. You only meant them as coy toward Spirit, but you were crediting Buell for the idea. Wasn't it just a fixing kit to the rim Buell patented after all? As for the astute choice of rim mounted disc! and under slung muffler, both in the Spirit design are done for aerodynamic gain, not mass centralization as in the Buell theory. If I do visit such a forum, I will offer only thoughtful and constructive commentary, nothing confrontational or personal against the folks there. But you'll do so instead on your forum where the Spirit team will not be to counter your objective and demeaning comments toward their concept. You on the other hand do troll around on a Buell enthusiasts' board, this one, basically accusing folks at Buell of lying (failing to deliver what they promised) and being hucksters selling an inferior product. You sir read about Buell motorcycle racers winning four out of four races against Ducati and Aprilia literbikes and see the comments of people congratulating that achievement, and your first reaction is to try to belittle and deride that success! You sir need taught a serious lesson. I've tried. I don't have any more patience for it. Call it lying if you please. I didn't, but yes, Buell have failed to deliver the motorcycles their marketing suggest they build. That isn't opinion (mine). It's fact. "WORLD BEATING" Buell have not done in any way shape or form, but they have used the wording many times. So you're right. Buell lie. As for the product. Dollar for dollar, pound for pound, Buells competitors are certainly offering better value for money. And they offer more reliable motorcycles. The Buell brand, no matter what platform, has been plagued with problems in several areas. Read Matt Purdy's comments regarding what he sees and hears from customers communicating with his Buell based business. I've been around plenty of Harley / Buell outlets to witness for myself plenty of failures occurring on Buell motorcycles. The denial from Buell is appalling when we all know the truth but accept it because we like the product. Well, I don't anymore, but you get the picture. As for the XBRR wins. I don't know how many times, but here it is again. I have no issue with the congratulatory posts. Just the ones making out the XBRR is better than Ducati's because the XBRR beat a few proddie race versions. It's about the truth, not the perceived truth. Only when and if the Spirit ES1 project leaders manage to get an actual mass producable road-worthy motorcycle built and running and selling for a reasonable price, then and only then is it reasonable to consider equating or comparing them to Mr. Buell. It doesn't matter a shit if they fail. Such would have little meaning toward measuring the design and engineering skills of one or many persons involved in any project. Erik Buell might be the genius engineer you imagine he is, but if Buell go bust tomorrow, does that too make your hero any less a genius engineer? I'm reminded of those who are pitching for Mars. Actually, the British designer that landed a remote control vehicle on Mars recently. Should I judge the American space program any less significant because they've not yet landed anything on Mars? See the hypocrisy? I've worked on lots of advanced stuff and led engineering projects too Sean. That doesn't qualify me to design entire aircraft or aerospace vehicles. Andrew le Fleming has designed three seasons of F1 car. F1 is the pinnacle of automotive design is it not? Particularly in aerodynamics? Your point Blake? As for the baffling me with aerodynamic science and math, why should I believe you're explanation above that of a team of clearly qualified and experienced people who clearly have put money where their design is? Even if this project doesn't make it off the drawing board, your put down of it is noted. Despite your back pedaling comments above, you can't worm your way out of your trolling. Consider you were caught with your pants down  Where did Erik Buell ever claim the Barton was a "POS"? On an internet forum. No he didn't say 'POS', but it was clear that was what he meant. Rocket Reposted after edit to appease Blake's wishes. Note - a good friend and moderator would have been noble enough to stand up to the argument - remove the offending comment of only one sentence in duration - and leave the post standing. That's what I'd have done. Which is in effect what I did by taking the time to email you a copy of your entire post so that YOU could remove the problematic content and repost it yourself as you wished. (Message edited by blake on July 05, 2007) | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
I read the article in MCN on the ferry coming back from the IoM TT yesterday morning. I'm not qualified to comment technically on the feasibility or otherwise of the project, but I don't imagine that people who move in the world of F1 are that stupid that they'd announce something like this without having something behind them. Feet too close together on a road racing machine would seem to be a problem for rider stability and for hanging off too. Quote from Kevin Schwantz."The riding position looks like it would make the bike extremely easy to handle with the way it's so narrow." I'd say he knows a thing or two about riding bikes, no? He also said "It's easy to dismiss people who try to change so much about traditional motorcycle design but it might be the next step everyone is looking for." Spot on the money there too. People dismissed Stevenson & his train, the Wright brothers too. When anything a bit different comes along there're always people ready to rubbish them before they've had a chance to prove their ideas. Be interesting to see how it pans out. | ||
| Blake |
Talk is extremely cheap. Some portions of their presentation lack integrity. If I tried to present such propaganda to say Toshiba, Marconi or God forbid the U.S. Air Force, or NATO, I'd be thrown out of the room on my head and if not fired, severely reprimanded. In my professional engineering/technical view, it's simply bad form. Honesty is always the best policy. Their ideas may have merit. Some surely do. Their amazing claims concerning performance specifications however seem borderline out of this world. For instance when have we ever in the history of sporting motorcycles or vehicles of any kind witnessed such a HUGE evolutionary leap akin to what the ES1 guys are advertising for their motorcycle's specifications and performance, a 25% reduction in weight accompanying a 50% reduction in aerodynamic drag?  Them's some EXTREMELY bold claims. Were they able to accomplish such amazing leaps in technology and performance in F1? No, I don't think so, not even close. Here's a reality check. If the 50% reduction in drag claim is actually true, then the top speed capability should increase accordingly, yes? For example, for a current superbike-literbike with a top speed of 200 mph, reducing the aerodynamic drag by 50% would result in a new top speed of over 250 mph, yes assuming applicable drive ratio adjustment. I'm cheering for Ilmor, who actually produced and raced a motorcycle. Even Michael Czyz and crew have put a bike on the pavement at speed. Actually going into production and putting a motorcycle into showrooms and onto the road is what counts. Until they do that, equating their efforts to those of Mr. Buell is in my view sorely over-eager; again, I'm addressing the thread title. Any good engineer or creative bloke can produce pie-in-the-sky fantasy designs/models/prototypes. Turning them into successful production reality requires only about a million times more astute effort. As to the fuel tank--someone mentioned it above--it may be in the giant swingarm. If so, I applaude such revolutionary innovation! Imagine, using stuctural/mechanical members for fluid reservoirs; who'd of thunk it?  Or it may be underneath the bodywork or seat. Looks like there's room. I'm interested in their torsion spring suspension. Interesting note: Technically speaking, a coil spring is also a torsion element. Fun stuff. (Message edited by Blake on June 08, 2007) | ||
| Court |
Motorcycles are the simplest part of the motorcycle business. It is much easier to make a motorcycle than a company. | ||
| Blake |
Another reality check. On their aerodynamic CFD plot, they advertise a CdA of 0.163m2 (1.75 FT2) and state in their discussion that their motorcycle has 50% less aerodynamic drag compared to a superbike. The CdA of a big ol' stock Suzuki Hayabusa is 0.270m2 (2.91 FT2). Half of that would be 0.135m2 (1.45 FT2). The CdA for today's superbikes are likely equal to or lower than that of the big ol' Hayabusa. More interesting info on motorcycle aerodynamic drag. I'll be enthused to see the bike take to the pavement. I'm ignorant of the Spirit ES1's intended purpose. Anyone know? Is it just a design exercise. Or is it intended to be a low production racing machine along the lines of the Foggy-Petronas WSB effort or is it slated for very limited production ultra-high-priced consumer market akin to the Moto Czyz, or is it intended for mass production? Looks to me like a design exercise. Which is cool. | ||
| Blake |
Found some juicy info. Check out their patent application.
Some drawings...        I can dig it.  | ||
| Rocketman |
I fear that your comments have stalled this thread somewhat Blake. My bet is, people can't be bothered to argue with your opposing strong views. a 25% reduction in weight accompanying a 50% reduction in aerodynamic drag? I'd buy their claims. Dick Glover was Team McLaren's Head of Simulation. That means it was his job to simulate every aspect the performance of McLaren's F1 car could achieve. Be it through weight saving, aerodynamics, or whatever. To do this he would also have to create the simulation systems. So to put his technical expertise into the Spirit project, and get his figures wrong, exaggerate them, or worse still, lie about them, I don't see it. For creative purposes they have based their motor on a stock GSXR1000, putting out around 170 BHP. Their computer analysis shows that a stock motor would give 220 MPH and a 200 BHP race version, a staggering 240 MPH from a weight of 120kg. They do point out that a torsion bar is simply an uncoiled spring, so they got that covered too! Given the way that the RR1000 went down the Salt at nearly 220 MPH from a highly tuned pushrod poke Sporty motor, how could anyone as technically qualified as you are not see a much more aerodynamic and considerably lighter vehicle powered by a race tuned GSXR1000 motor to 200 BHP, not capable of Spirits claims? Everything they have said points to exactly the sort of figures the RR1000 achieved from much less than the Spirit computer design. Rocket Edit; nice to see your change of heart. Spirit say they want to build 10 high level bikes first (in America) to prove their design. Final engine spec will be to customer request. Then they wish to build 100 a year from 2009 / 10 using more conventional state of tune, and perhaps even triple and twin motors to achieve even better aerodynamic possibilities. I'll buy the design, but I'll waver a little on the production figures. (Message edited by rocketman on June 08, 2007) | ||
| Blake |
Notice in the first sketch, figures 4b and 4d, that they show the rider's left hand tucked in off the handlebar grip and his upper torso skewed/yawed towards the right side of the bike. Upon close inspection it appears that it would be difficult for the rider's feat to be positioned as indicated in Figure 4c. It shows his heels well behind the leading edge of the rear tire, around which the swingarm must wrap. From the perspective of the top view, that doesn't seem to work. Sketch may not be very accurate I guess. They state that the swingarm is single sided, but the drawings show a conventional configuration, no?  Fun stuff. The drag numbers just don't add up is all. The center drive idea may be a valuable one though. | ||
| Blake |
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/06/07/ecoss e-spirit-es1-motorcycle-racer-redesign/ Sorry Sean, my view is that the drag and weight numbers are fantasy; I don't buy them, especially the drag numbers. Why did Dick leave McLaren as head of simulation? "Head of simulation"? That may impress you into believing whatever he sees fit to present. It doesn't convince me. Competent engineers pretty much rely on the science, not business card titles. When your work is to actually ensure that aircraft do not fall out of the sky, you quickly learn to trust the science, not the job titles. Some of the marketing I'm seeing presented as science by the ES1 folks is bogus. Period. | ||
| Oldog |
Like the Britten and the Buell there are alot of "alternate ideas" in the package. an interesting concept but I bet that you will never see one built. I am also willing to bet that IF it goes to production that they will go to court over patent issues. | ||
| Glitch |
Their ideas may have merit. Some surely do. Their amazing claims concerning performance specifications however seem borderline out of this world. Yeah, marketing folks are paid to be out of this world. Marketing...I should have gone into marketing...seems like the folks I know in marketing, don't live in the real world at all. Ah to be paid to fantasize... Notice in the first sketch, figures 4b and 4d, that they show the rider's left hand tucked in off the handlebar grip and his upper torso skewed/yawed towards the right side of the bike. Ya reckon that's trying to illustrate how you make a turn on such a bike? Anyone have a guess as to how long this bike might be? Looks to be a long one. I've been trying to read this but that's a lot for a simple mind such as mind to absorb...  | ||
| Rocketman |
Dick hasn't left the building. He got promoted to 'head of design' on the road car projects. Speaking of buildings, you might want to take a look at McLarens ecological aerodynamic facility otherwise know as their Technology Centre. Be sure to click the tabs and have a look around. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
Cool place. | ||
| Rick_a |
Most of it is nothing new and the rest looks like there were too many compromises made to meet design goals (long wheelbase, complicated final drive setup, footpegs unnaturally close together). May make an interesting LSR bike if it lives up to it's proposed claims...maybe even a new school high speed low drag sport tourer?
Apparently nobody remembers the "Silver Dream Racer" that killed it's rider when it locked up at the finish straight.  | ||
| Rocketman |
Apparently nobody remembers the "Silver Dream Racer" that killed it's rider when it locked up at the finish straight. Nobody remembers the real story. The Barton qualified 16th at the 1976 British GP. It was the first of the non-factory supported bikes to make the grid, and practice / qualifying had seen it set a blisteringly fast pace the Japanese, in particular Suzuki, were a little concerned about. Barton had no money. They had rolled the bike out of a transit van they were sleeping in, and gone to the GP with what few shillings they had remaining in their pockets. So when they were approached on the grid a short time before the race start by a major chain manufacturer, they turned them away as they couldn't afford a new chain. It wasn't until the first corner of the race Barton realised they had been nobbled. The chain which was given and fitted free of charge, recognition of such expected if Barton placed well, had come off at the first corner and the Barton's race was run. Dyson remembers Suzuki were using these same chains, and it was Suzuki who faced much embarrassment if Barton were to beat them. Dyson is an interesting character in the world of motorcycles. He knows most everyone past and present, and has an opinion he's not afraid to share with or about anyone, and his memory is second to none it seems. Rocket | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
has an opinion he's not afraid to share with or about anyone Coincidence?  | ||
| Rocketman |
Coincidence? Englishman Rocket | ||
| Anonymous |
Opinions are cheap, and usually meaningless. Success is not. American.  | ||
| Rocketman |
Specify success? Rocket | ||
| Rex |
britten did a lot of these in the past.....and he built an actual size bike that ran...so did erik......nice concepts. build it......rex | ||
| Buellshyter |
This kind of post always turns ugly  | ||
| Smokescreen |
I love how Rocketman just keeps 'em coming! If the factory wants to throw cheap shots, they gotta get someone who knows what they are talking about (or at least has the authority to). One liners from anonymous posters get no credibility with us general population users. Perhaps the custodians will ask Rocket to join so he can be as informed as they are? I'll just hold my breath....  Smokescreen | ||
| Blake |
Let me get this straight. It qualified 16th and to you that is great and wonderful and Suzuki was all concerned about it to the point of having a vendor sabotage the bike? LOL!  What a world you live in. You know what annoys me more than trolls? Friggin troll cheerleaders. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Anonymous opinions are even cheaper & more meaningless, than honestly delivered error! If you ain't brave enough to put your name to your words, shut the f up! | ||
| Rocketman |
In 1976 a handmade motorcycle built and run by a privateer effort with a few shekels, qualifying 16th on the grid for the British GP was nothing short of legend. Your support of the anonymous so well informed person is noted. Blake, you're a bigot when it comes to anything Buell, and such is in real poor taste. Rocket | ||
| Crusty |
Blake, you're a bigot when it comes to anything Buell, On a Buell enthusiast's forum, I would consider that to be a compliment. | ||
| Court |
Britten had an interesting design. Some of his personal shortcoming assured it would never make production. You can read about it in one (only one, because when the first one came out the family quickly hired a relative to write their version) of the books about him. One element of success, assuming souls with roughly equal engineering gifts, is the ability to apply vision and do business. Erik Buell, regardless of your opinion of the product, holds the sole slot for starting a successful (loosely defined as BEING HERE and BEING PROFITABLE) in the last 50 years. I'd suggest folks offended by anonymous posts do what I do with the TV . . simply don't read them. Apparently some folks used an hour of their time watching the Sopranos . . . yawn. . . I practiced scales. Life's simple . . . we make choices. |
