| Author |
Message |
    
Rick_a
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 11:23 pm: | 
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Blake...Join the JAP SIDE 
This makes me think of my buddy who's been a long time Harley biker...who after riding another friend's CBR954RR streetfighter is trying to sell the hog and buy a Honda sportbike...and go to school for japanese imports instead of Harley...even has a Yamaha sticker on his bike
And to make things worse...he first looked to Buell but the dealership personnel turned him off. Just goes to show ya... |
Davegess
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 11:26 pm: |
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AMAPR, Bus is right on the money. And they are a bunch of .... who have some success despite themselves. They have managed to take one of the two premier road racing properties in the world and turn it into just another round in the US national championship. It wasn't 20 years ago when Daytona was simply the most important race in the world.
The Isle of Man TT has dropped in importance only because it too dangerous for the multi-million dollar talent to race at. Not much they can do about that. Every year they display an excellant ability to keep the event in the public eye and to attract interesting entries that draw attention even though they have no significance in any championship.
This has keep the race importatn in the British and overall European market so the factories continue to sent top teams to race.
Daytona has dropped from the top level simply because of misguided management by the AMA. Why WSB bikes are not allowed to race there is beyond me. If those bikes had been allowed in 10 years ago when Daytone still mattered on the world stage every WSB team would still be racing there. Sure the teams don't like the 200 mile format but pay big prize money and they would make it work.
Every effort should have been made to keep this race as the world's premier race and the kickoff of the world racing season. Giving that up .....wow. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 11:41 pm: |
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Dyna, Ever read Road Racing World and Motorcycle Technology? Obviously not. Hands down, no question, the best sporting bike magazine in the world. It is an American publication.
Rocket,
I'm not sure what you are so spun up about. BSB produces some outstanding talent (Fogharty). I certainly agree that it is a great series.
You don't like our president or his actions? I do. I'm sick and tired of America having to tip toe around the delicate sensibilities of the world's critics. You don't like our leader hitting a carrier deck in a jet plane? I do. I'm so damn glad to be rid of that disgraceful lout Clinton; I'm thankful we now have a moral man of integrity leading our nation. I don't care if he wants to show off or grandstand a little bit. He's the leader of the free world fresh off a MAJOR victory over an evil dictator. Why not support him instead of deride and criticize him? I just don't get your views. I'm damn glad the British leader agrees with mine.
You become a "Cecil"? Ya right. Fix the bike, go for a ride.
Blaming your split on Buell? Get real. I've heard of Buells being possessed, but I've never heard of their demons controlling the mind of anyone. I'll get back to you later... I hear my Cyclone calling me... 
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:16 am: |
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Actually Blake I read RRW every month. I do keep up on the topics, just some I dont really have any interest in. I probably subscribe to & read about 20 motorcycle magazines a month....I waste way too much money on em, but get a large variety of viewpoints & then can check the bikes out for myself & see who is full of shit & who isnt. |
Buell_brener
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:26 am: |
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It seems to me that the problem with Buell racing is top speed and how quick the bikes can reach it. If you were going to race a Buell at PIR you would be (assumeing were talking super sport)passed by bikes reaching 150 mph in the straights.
The Buell can compete with anything in the turns.
If the Buell truly dominated the SS races then I could see questioning the rules, but I doubt that is the case. Altering rules to force expensive engine development favors Japan Inc. and I don't understand why the AMA (they are American right?)believs displacement is the best method for catagorizing race bikes.
Rocket,
Approx. $24000 USD to keep your Buell running? I hope that is over a period of many years. I would have shot the f!@#ing thing at 20% of that and then gone looking for its inventor (see what effect Bush is having on me). |
Marriedabuell
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:28 am: |
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Quote:Who wants to play?? I got all damn day to offend & piss folk off. Seems to me (not the smartest,not the dumbest,in the middle) that the buffoon who quoted thee above admits that he is a troll! Blake avoid the troll. |
Marriedabuell
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:46 am: |
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quote:Approx. $24000 USD to keep your Buell running? I hope that is over a period of many years. I would have shot the f!@#ing thing at 20% of that and then gone looking for its inventor ah buell brenner there was nothing wrong with rockets bike when it came out of the box. He upon his own will let a bunch of incompetant monkeys take it totally apart and work their so called magic into it, and i guess that half ass mechanic /shop wont stand behind their shoddy work . To blame the mfg is ah STUPID. Funny thing is about 4 years ago he was talkin em up (the shop) BIG time. Dont let him fool ya though he would give up the family jewels to live in AMERICA! GBA! |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 01:23 am: |
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Rocket,
I think you are mistaken on the source of the Ducati V4 versus Jap IL4 statement. I cannot find it. I don't think I said it, certainly not in the context of MotoGP.
Marriedabuell,
I don't see your trollish quote here anywhere either. |
Marriedabuell
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 01:38 am: |
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Blake it's in the NC-17/R-rated section in Archives thru May 3, 2003. Scroll down to the 5th post . Realize it's a different area , but the guy is a mook! |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 02:58 am: |
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If you have something to say married, come right out & say it. That quote was me & it was directed towards Char & you damn well know it, we were teasing each other & going back & forth. Dont be an ass. |
Mark_in_ireland
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 07:57 am: |
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Quote from Marriedabuell....'ah buell brenner there was nothing wrong with rockets bike when it came out of the box.'
Get your facts correct...Rocket had 2 untouched engine failures, both times the rear cylinder siezed, if I remember right. That was the reason he went down the road of building a S&S motor....he wanted a bit more reliability
(Message edited by Mark_in_ireland on May 11, 2003) |
Benm2
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 08:07 am: |
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Blake:
I meant up to Doohan, not including Doohan. Mick was an aussie right?
Ben |
Crusty
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 09:37 am: |
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He not only was an Aussie, he still is. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 10:26 am: |
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Dyna,
No worries. I don't need anyone to point out what a troll you are. But hey, you're our troll with "our" meant collectively for all the Buell forums. Happy mother's day. After all, when it comes to the Buell boards, you are the undisputed "Mother of All Trolls", "MOAT" for short.
Does that make you "Dynamoat"? LOL.
On topic... Go FUSA!! |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 10:55 am: |
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quote:Why cannot a comparably powered yet heavier bike with half the cylinders, half the engine speed capability, one fourth the valves, one fourth the throttle bodies yet with twice the displacement, be allowed to race? It beats the hell out of me.
Because one man ,along with the brightest minds in the industry and a company (thats 100 years old) with VERY DEEP POCKETS standing BEHIND him scares the piss out of the japanese (mostly honda) Now i dont mean scared for their lives ,i mean scared for numbers. HD has quite a big slice of the cruiser pie , and to put a dent in the so-called sport-bike pie has them (japs) twitching. Dont think that worldcom or enron could only attract such dirtbags, Vanderslice and Hollingsworth and the rest of the ama pr rule makers are just as dirty. The game is FIXED! Mr Gess nailed it right on the head (AS USUAL!) saying that Daytona was once "the race" along with everything else in his post (Mr Gess). At one time i thought no one will ever match Scott Russell , well watch Duhamel catch him , only because of the dirt bags involved to see it thru. Once thought how "cool" it was to part of ama team , it has become sterile and boring. Formula USA is way more exciting , no not cuz were in it , but because it is about FAIRLY COMPETING againest each other. The man on the bus has quite the angle! Stock XB wheels are EXCELLENT! (from the warped quip) we take off stock wheels and use em all day long , the stock rotors only last about 2 races (dont think anyone on the street heats em like that though), but the race ones (.100 thicker)last! that whole vibration thing (hmmm?) there is always two sides . The M2 cracked tail section ?. Only time I have seen them crack is from tool storage in that rear pocket (this guy had 3 or 4 lb tool bag) , dont think that pocket is meant for tools . Support your local Formula USA ,it is about REAL competition! And while your at it snatch up all them tubers that are being "given away" remember what happened to all those superbirds ? they could'nt give em away . These Buells are awesome !! not cuz some dickhead anon is sayin so but it is what it is. 2004 will be EVEN BETTER!
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:01 pm: |
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If a twin could be made to compete against equal displacement IL4's, Duc would be running a twin in Moto GP. They know better, even with a sizable weight advantage for a twin they saw fit to go to a four cyl engine.
There ya go Blake 
Thanks Mark close. Two new S1W's, both holed the rear pistons and other related damage, one at 2001 miles t'other at 2400 miles. Yep that's why we stuffed it full of quality proven components but when you get monkeys who can't make simple and necessary measurements (during the last top end warranty rebuild) not even an S&S rod will withstand smacking the head. Worse still, when you've put your trust in your dealer to do the warranty repair, and they've admitted to you their workshops are covered by insurance too and they still refuse to sort the damage they've obviously caused, and not even with Garry Brumfit HD UK's MD knowing your plight, HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO ENJOY BUELL OWNERSHIP? That's my story and sadly what looks like becoming legal action prevents me from yet another summer of riding.
I tell ya, it's been a long time since I recommended a friend buy a Buell. Hell I even took a new Z1000 out the other day (see I'm disillusioned). Thrashed the tits off it big time, and yes it is a Jap IL 4, and it's a very impressive bike and seriously bloody fast. When it hits 8 grand in 1st it lifts the front wheel like you wouldn't believe. Buell, I've shat 'em. Love mine, but given the chance now I'd bail out big time, buy an MV Brutale when they hit production.
So let's look at the 9S. What a great little bike yet it's about as powerful as my mum's Singer sewing machine. What a pity. Buell's to scared to build a proper high performance bike. Scared of unreliabilty, seems scared they might get beat on the tracks too otherwise why don't they build a real racer. Quibling about configuration and capacity is ridiculous. Other manufacturers build what it takes, why won't Buell?
Do I really give a shit? Not really. These days I take from Buell the wondeful people I've met, the great times it has brought me, but truthfully, the product is somewhat floored IMHO. Reminds me of when I was in my twenties, arguing the greatness of all my Bonnies against my Jap riding buddies IL 4's. They rode off in to the sunset whilst I was splitting cases on the kitchen table. Thanks to my faith in Buell things haven't really changed that much for me MORE'S THE FREEKIN' PITY.
Rocket  |
S320002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 04:35 pm: |
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Just some quick comments.
Seems some AMAPR classes are custom tailored for Japanese bikes. How else could they afford to build RR bikes specifically designed for the class. AMAPR claims the classes are for street based bikes but, the rules are such that Japanese factories build one bike for the streets and a special RR, limited edition bike tailored for the AMAPR series. Can you imagine the outrage and reprisals if AMAPR were to dump these classes with minimal notice?
Blake is right on the money with his comments on the impossibility of increasing HP by 30 percent with a simple ECM and exhaust system change.
IMHO racing was much more entertaining when the sanctioning body didn't try to cram every bike and rider into the same prefabbed boxes. If you like spec racing the AMAPR 600s should have you dancing with joy. That is unless you're a privateer trying to compete with those "legal" factory bikes.
Low revving high torque bikes like the current Buells won't usually do well high speed wide open tracks. They do however do quite well on tight, technical tracks and in real world environments.
While outrageous horsepower might win the dragrace from corner to corner, if I'm going to watch a dragrace I prefer mine nitro powered and without corners. If I'm watching roadracing I prefer the high speed ballet of a tight, twisty track.
Blake, I share your outrage at AMAPR but I think some of your comments to some of the natives and neighbors have been a bit harsh. On the other hand some are well deserved.
Greg |
Daves
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 04:58 pm: |
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Hi Greg, how you been? You coming back to Iowa for a visit anytime soon?
Ride to the edge!
Dave
HD/Buell Cycle Center
Waterloo Ia |
S320002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 05:27 pm: |
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Hi Dave,
Not unless somebody up there has a good job for me. But then things could change. Thanks for asking. Hope things are going well for you.
Greg |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 05:49 pm: |
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Greg,
I know. It's my passion and indignation over injustice, corruption and deceit. And my unfortunate frank and nature. 
Rocket,
DOH! I remember now...  . Yammer, Suzi and Kawi are running IL4's in MGP are they not? Yammer is competitive are they not? I was speaking generally, most of the competition is indeed running four cylinder bikes. Didn't mean to take anything away from the class leading V5 of Honda. Outstanding machine they have there.
Anony,
Thanks for your perspective. As a man in a position to know a thing or two about the Buell racing scene, your perspective is most appreciated. |
Rick_a
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 01:33 am: |
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8K??? Hahaha...my Buell can crank 'er up at around 3K in 1st...
Sure it won't go over 130 but what's it matter? That'd be plain impractical and stupid on the street. There lies the difference between Buell and the rest of the world. Against bikes of similar power to weight ratio's the Buell is a contender. That to me is what counts...not what an organization's rulebook places as a benchmark.
I've only actually gone to one race...that was Daytona this year...I found the 250GP and the BMW Boxer Cup to be the most exiting races. Seeing a tricked out, loud-ass, tiny Buell fly around the track was an awesome highlight. I found it odd that the majority of people had interest only in the Superbike and Supersport races. They came to see big names and big brands.
I'm all for good racing...but would also rather see more diversity in hardware. The AMA Racing is becoming more and more like NASCAR, IMO.
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 06:47 pm: |
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Blake yet again you couldn't admit you were just a little bit wrong could you. Not even over some pissy little comment.
The only IL 4's in Moto GP are the Yamaha and three Kawasaki's, and no the Yam's are NOT competitive, or at least not according to Max Biaggi they're not. That's why he switched to a Honda V5 for this season (shame it's last years model). The Suzuki is a V4 as in GSV-R, wrong again doh!
So you think Ducati built the V4 to compete against the Yamaha's and three Kwak's then? No I thought not. Speaking generally? Sure ya woz!
Rick don't take my word for it, go ride one or remain blinkered.
Rocket
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Blake
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 10:12 pm: |
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Rocket,
Sorry, didn't know you were looking for a confession of mistatement. Yes, my statement was slightly misrepresentative. No doubt about it.
Not to become mired in extraneous details... My point however is that if a V-Twin could compete against four or five cylinder engines of any ilk, Ducati would not have made such a huge change and gone to a 4 cylinder engine for Moto GP; they would have stuck with their trademark V-Twin.
It's common knowledge that SIGNIFICANTLY more power can be made by a 1,000cc engine comprised of four or more cylinders than one comprised of two. So how can you not see it will be a huge advantage in AMAPR for the entries fielding four cylinder engines once the rules are changed to allow the same level of performance modifications in the four cylinder engines as in the twins? Remember? That's how this whole discussion of Ducati going to a four cylinder engine in GP got started. I don't care if Honda has five, Aprilia has three or that Suzi's 4-cyl engine is a V... Ducati went to four cylinders because they could not find a way to make competitive power with two, even WITH a significant minimum weight advantage.
So how do you possibly figure that they can compete with two cylinders against four cylinder superbikes with absolutely no weight advantage? You'll have to explain that to me, cause I don't see it. All else being equal, the liter fours will walk away from the liter twins on the high speed tracks. There is no refuting that. It is fact. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 04:56 am: |
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Blake yet again you persist in twisting things. It's amazing what play with words can do. Moto GP is for full on Prototype machinery where obviously a V twin would not be competitive, but that is not the same for production based racing, as in WSB or AMAPR. Ducati built a V4 to compete against IL 4's your right. As for their already world proven V twin, it is still in WSB, where it is competing against Japanese IL 4's and still the bike to beat.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe AMAPR are changing their rules to align themselves with WSB, where incidentally they're using restrictors in the inlet tract to even the stakes. Either way Super Bike racing is supposed to be based on production machinery which is why Foggarty has built 150 homologation machines for road use. Assuming the above, and the rules in AMApR changed to allow a larger displacement Buell in, would we see 150 homologated Buells hitting the street anytime soon? I doubt it.
This stuff is about customers and Buell doesn't build race bikes or even 'replica' race bikes for its customers so why should Buell be allowed in with a larger dislacement machine, especially so if your right about it beating the litre boys coz that would make the series worthless wouldn't it. The Jap daddies would go home then you'd have no race series at all.
(a) One allowable engine displacement category of 901cc - 1000cc regardless of the number of cylinders.
So why would the Italians not be in the series?
Rocket
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Jssport
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 11:46 am: |
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Ducati built a new engine to race in GP.
Kaw is building a new 1000cc motor to run 2004 Superbike/WSB, as well as their investment in GP.
Aprillia built a new 3cyl to run GP.
Honda is working on the 954 for next year AMA/WSB.
They saw the rules and built a bike to be competitive in it.
But Buell fans are expecting to be given concessions so their bikes are competitive ??????
If Buell wants to race, they will build a race bike. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 12:00 pm: |
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Jssport... for the GP, F1, and related "all out racing" classes, I could not agree more, and pray that Buell never goes down that road (put time and money into a bike I will ride, not a bike I will watch).
But for the classes where people are supposed to be racing bikes that are supposedly close to a streetable / sellable configuration, I think a rule that renders *all* V twins uncompetitive is a problem with the sanctioning body, not a problem with the manufacturers.
And in those classes, putting a 1000 or even 1200 cc 45 degree aircooled pushrod twin up against 600cc water cooled inline fours with similiar strengths, weights, and wheelbases, seems to make a lot of sense.
I hope Harley (by way of Buell) lets the AMA-Pro races become the bland and marginalized series they are trying so hard to become. |
Jssport
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 12:22 pm: |
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Reep,...
That's where FUSA and CCS come into play. Club races can make special rules and classes so everyone can come out and play.
But on the national (AMA) or international (WSB/GP) level you either run with the BIG DOGS or you should just sit in the stands. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 01:28 pm: |
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Why would Buell waste the time and money it takes to be competitive, when the rules keep changing? Erik has been down that road before. Buell is a small company. They can't afford to build a bike from the ground up every few years to stay within whatever the current rules are. Honda and Kawasaki can. Buell has taken to building street bikes, and does it very well. I'm with Reep on this one. Spend the money on bikes I can ride. I'll watch the Hondas on the track. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 02:34 pm: |
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"As for their already world proven V twin, it is still in WSB, where it is competing against Japanese IL 4's and still the bike to beat."
Clarification... you should have said "...where it is competing against privateer Japanese IL 4's..." Do you really see the 2003 WSB series as anything but a Ducati cup? It is a complete joke. Why? Did not the Japanese factories pull all their teams. Why would they do that in WSB but not AMAPR?
"Did it ever occur to you that maybe AMAPR are changing their rules to align themselves with WSB, where incidentally they're using restrictors in the inlet tract to even the stakes."
But Rocket, AMAPR has no plans to require restrictors on the IL4's. You are not listening. AMAPR is not in any way differentiating between twins, triples, fours, or fives for the 2004 Superbike class. They ALL are allowed the same performance modifications. There is no provision for restrictor plates. Maybe between now and the official release of the 2004 AMAPR Superbike technical rules that will change, but I sincerely doubt it.
Buell is not a contender for Superbike, but they could be a competitor in Supersport or Superstock (or the 2004 version of Formula Extreme) if AMAPR did not exclude them. They allow the IL4's in Superstock to jump from 750cc to 1,000cc, but they maintain Buell at the same displacement. That sound fair to you?
What are you prattling on about... Buell and Superbike???
Listen, one year AMAPR says, "Yeah come on in, we'd love to have Buell join the class", then the next year, AMAPR change the class displacement rules for IL4's rendering any Buell competitor completely and utterly hopelessly uncompetitive. They do the same thing to Ducati in Superbike.
They won't even let Duc 748/749RS's or Buell XB9R's into the Supersport class.
Why would Ducati not contest AMAPR Superbike? You are not listening. Why would they if they haven't a chance in hell of being competitive?
Jssport,
We are not debating the fairness of MotoGP. We are talking about AMAPR streetbike based racing classes and their biased rules.
Buell doesn't need any concessions, just fair rules, you know like the ones CCS/FUSA employ?
Is it a concession to change the rules for 2004 Superstock to allow 1,000cc IL4's.
Is it a concession to change the rules in Superbike to allow 1,000cc IL4's the same level of modification as the twins?
Is it a concession to completely change Formula Extreme from an all out no holds barred no displacement limits class to a 600cc based class without making any allowances for other configurations of sport bike, like Ducati or Buell?
Buell did build a race bike. It was called Pro Thunder. Buell even sponsored the series. Why was that series, which had evolved into a two brand series, cancelled but the Superstock, a one brand series allowed to continue? One answer, and you already know what it is... Japanese daddies no likee. Open your eyes and see who is getting the concessions. It certainly isn't Buell. Then ask yourself, in the American Motorcyclist Association Pro Racing series, should America's only sport bike be excluded from competing in the classes for which it is most suited?
Rocket,
Do BSB rules attempt in any way to level the field between twins, triples, and fours? How about WSB? They have different weight limits and/or restrictor plate requirements right? Not in AMAPR. See my point now? Why would the Japanese factories pull out of WSB for 2003, but continue massive participation and support of AMAPR? What does that tell you? It tells me that rather than compete fairly on the world stage, the Japanese factories choose to compete in a national series that gives them a clear advantage over other brands.
The Japanese factories stand united. That is a strong and admirable trait of their culture. Japan first, all others 2nd. Suzi and Kawi, normally fierce competitors, are now cooperating closely. That's all well and good, but they have become overly greedy at the expense of fair and interesting competition. AMAPR is facilitating their greed. Some see that as the roll of a racing organization. I strongly disagree, especially when they hold themselves up as a nationally representative racing series.
They either need to take a new name (Four Cylinder Pro Racing?... Japan Spec Pro Racing?), or follow their creed honestly and enact rules to allow fair competition among all sport bike manufacturers who wish to participate and who manufacture and sell motorcycles that are competitive in such classes. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 02:48 pm: |
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Jss... we agree. But if this is the case, then why is the AMA sanctioning "stock" 600's (that magically put out 30 horsepower more then the ones at the dealer)?
And for that matter, if this is supposed to be about serious race equipment, and classed only on displacement, then why are we wasting time on four strokes at all? They make roughly HALF the power of a two stroke. Why do four strokes get a 2x displacement "concession" as you put it.
We are just saying the rules as planned are patently, obviously, and glaringly stupid and inconsistent. They seem just too stupid to be an accident, and the only reasonable conclusion is either glaring stupidity and lazyness, or corruption and graft.
I do think the four strokes should have about a 2x displacement adjustment over a two stroke. And I think an aircooled 45 degree pushrod twin should have a similar displacement adjustment over a water cooled 4cyl. And I think gear driven valvetrains (regardless of number of cylinders) should have an adjustment also. My thoughts are based on simple, observable, provable, well modeled physical limits.
This stuff is just not that hard, we could come up with a good set of rules (with mathematical justifications and derivations) in less then a weekend here on the board.
I don't want to see Harley / Buell wasting time and money on a GP / Formula 1 type program. But I would love to see factory engineering support behind some nearly stock XB9R's mixing it up with factory engineering support behind some nearly stock inline four 600's. That's where the XB belongs, and I think it would be a blast to follow that kind of racing, and don't know understand why the AMAPro won't allow it in the classes that seem most reasonably appropriate. |
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