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Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 11:15 am: | 
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I gave a 20 minute presentation a while back on the history of Ducati and the legend of Paul Smart and Imola. To me, still one of the funnest stories in motorcycling. From Ducati's factory being missed one day and then gettting hit just as the folks were preparing to do the neehner-neehner thing to Paul Smart's wife committing his to race without his knowledge while he was out of the country, visiting the USA.
Ducati's history, in times of success and times of embarrasment, has never lacked flavor, color and passion. The things that draw those of us, foolhearty enough to admit that PEAK HP is not all we want, to the sport.
Court |
Jscott
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 02:14 pm: |
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Here is a creative thinking fellow - does anybody have any thoughts on the fueling 4 valve heads?
http://www.ex.ac.uk/~pbhook/harley.htm |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 08:37 pm: |
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BenM2,
Like Feathered Fiend says, late 70's and early 80's Ducatis and Guzzis and BMWs were beating the 4-cylinder liter bikes in AMA Superbike at certain tracks. Heck, Cook Nielson won Daytona in 1977 on an old bevel drive 900 Ducati. Other famous twin riders who won or ran near the front in Superbike from that era: Mike Baldwin, Rich Schlacter, Paul Ritter, Reg Pridmore, John Long, Freddie Spencer, Jerry Wood...even Erik Buell. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 01:17 am: |
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I always found it odd that the some production Pantah engined Ducs made about the same power stock as the modern aircooled 900's. I guess they were obviously less restricted then, though. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 12:05 pm: |
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Sorry, before I started keeping track. Learn sumptin new evry day. When I was around the racing in the early 80's, they were loud & slow. Didn't really start following racing till my dad starting doing it in 82. When did Fast Freddie ride a Duc? I thought Honda recruited him when he was rather young. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 02:24 pm: |
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JScott,
Wrong topic dude. Try the Knowledge Vault or a new topic here in the Quick Board. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 09:45 pm: |
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BenM2,
Freddie Spencer rode a Ducati for Reno Leoni for a while in 1979. He moved on, and Reno put Jimmy Adamo in the primary seat.
BTW, back to the original topic...I have a copy of the 1978 Daytona program in front of me...68 entries in Superbike (not the premier class that year, Formula One still existed). Brand entries include Suzuki, Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha, Harley-Davidson, Ducati, Moto Guzzi, BMW, and Laverda.
Riders include Cooley, Hammer, Spencer, Buell, Baldwin, McLaughlin, Pridmore, Code, Long, Wood, Ritter, Pierce, etc...Sigh...
Even cooler is the list of entries for the Formula One race: 97 ENTRIES, and these were the pre-entries...more showed up to qualify)!!! Man how Daytona and the AMA have deteriorated over the years!!!
Wanna hear some names? (Some of you will remember all of these) I'll take some from the beginning of the list and some from the end, just to give you an idea: Roberts, Romero, Scott, Buell, Nixon, Aldana, Eklund, Mamola, Singleton, Baker, Cooley, Hansford, Pons, Dunlop (yep, Joey), van Dulmen, Asami, Sarron, Sugimoto, Middleburg, etc., etc., etc.
In that period, basically all the European stars came over for the main race at Daytona...it would be like not only having Colin Edwards, but also having Haga, Biaggi, Rossi, Barros, Bayliss, Checa, Capirossi, etc. The racing was intensely fierce and fast back at least 40 positions.
Now we get to see basically a grid of American riders on a couple of brands of modified streetbikes, with a couple of trick works modified streetbikes thrown in the mix. Oh yes, and a backup race of slow BMW's with retired racers. So much for the AMA turning racing over to the AMA "Pro" Racing group. Hell, AMA, take it back over!!! The core AMA board may not be as "professional", but at least they are enthusiasts, and used to put on one hell of a show!!!
Ah, yes, AMA "Pro" Racing is right on the cutting edge. It's more interesting reading about their lawsuits than their races these days. Well, at least we have Speed channel to watch the exciting stuff in Europe.
Personally, I am going to go to some FUSA races where there is good multi-brand racing, and get my high level stuff from Speed. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 10:36 pm: |
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Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing. That Buell character might have a tough time racing these days... what with it being so tough to find a roll of duct tape.  |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 06:33 am: |
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Blake: I can get him a roll in NYC for a scant $150.
Call me old fashioned, but tales like that from 1978 stir my sole more than any screamin' 14,000 rpm UJM.
Court |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 07:45 am: |
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I mostly remember the racing from the early eighties, with alot of the same characters mentioned. I suppose, in retrospect, that it was the beginning of the end there, as the number of factories thinned out. It certainly seems that the Daytona 200 does not carry anywhere near the same attraction it did in its heyday.
Wasn't the "showcase" class back then the F1 class? I remember it changed to superbike & F1 was dropped, that seems like it might have contributed to the decline.
Considering that the new moto GP class seems to have the widest variety of participating factories, is it time for the class to be re-established as the premier class in the US? Would the factories support such an effort in both the world arena AND the US?
Also, curiosity abounds. Does anyone know what the superbike engine rules were in 1978? |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 09:37 am: |
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They call it a "World" championship, but with only one SBK stop in America and previously no Moto GP events, it is HARDLY oriented as such. If Britain and Italy get two rounds, we ought to get at least three here in the states. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 09:56 am: |
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Is it equally unfair that Nigeria is excluded from participating? There are races in several countries that have FIM-approved facilities. There seems to be alot of talk about the US building an FIM-approved racetrack, but I don't know if there are any that meet both the safety AND seating requirements. (I'm sure SOMEONE here will point them out) How many NASCAR tracks are there in Italy? The best riders in the US go to participate in those "world" series, 'cause its the contest of the finest riders & machines.
Also, then, why is it that our baseball championship is called the "world series"? |
Mikej
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 09:59 am: |
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Nigeria is currently trying to build their race bank account sufficiently to go racing, but they seem to be having trouble getting people to believe that their e-mails are legitimate. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 10:02 am: |
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Dearest Daddy Blake:
Can you e-mail that transcipt of your correspondence with Motorcyclist to court@canfield.net
Turns out that one of the nice people I met at the board I serve on for the 2012 Olympics is a publishing wheel. I've got a meeting later and, as a student and librarian of two cases of books on Customer Service and business models/strategies, I am curious to learn more about how a magazine builds a customer base by "reporting the news" based on conjecture, personal bias and slapping the folks who pay, or used to pay, money for this.
I love innovation and am thinking Buell could rise to the next level of customers service by implementing the "non-demo-ride - you wanna know how it rides, BUY IT" program of perhaps the "screw you, it's a mechanical device" to replace the demos they pioneered and rediculous programs like continuing to provide help on bubbling tanks 4 years after the problem developed.
What the heck was Buell thinking? Innovation, creativity, honesty and bending over backwards....screw'em...all outdatged principles it appears.
I'm eager to talk to these Primedia folks and bask in their geniusity!
Court |
Lornce
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 10:32 am: |
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Ermmn, scuse me. This thread began as a voiced concern re the decision to lift the 800cc limit on multis in AMA Superbike racing.
But now it seems to have slipped into a trip down memory lane....
Which *may* belie the inspiration for the original concern....
Just a thought from a frozen contrarian.
Lornce |
Lornce
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 10:53 am: |
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Blake,
As I understand it, Euro GP and WSBK rounds can often generate crowds of 150 to 250k.... That's a big market. Tough to duplicate in America. Sadly, this whole thing comes down to dollars and cents, right?
Those rosters from '70's Superbike races sure brings back the mems for me. Those were exciting times, enthusiastic times.... Times before racing was BIG business.
IMHO, I think that's what we're all really missing here. We're missing participation in a real live human scale event fueled by passion, desire, creativity and maybe even a little joy. Not money.
So, while I understand the AMA's decision to go with the big money.... I too miss simpler times of less compromised enthusiasm and grit.
Maybe why we like riding Buells, eh?
I hate winter,
Lornce |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 11:05 am: |
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Quote:So, while I understand the AMA's decision to go with the big money.... I too miss simpler times of less compromised enthusiasm and grit.
Oddly enough, that's the same thing my dad said when I took him to a WERA race last year. When I was last involved (counting laps in the scoring tower), the teams that had a "canopy" (four pieces of pipe & an old blue tarp) were the "money teams". There weren't alot of contingencies then, and everyone raced for "fun". Even WERA seems alot more serious now. The price of fame? |
Mikej
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 11:09 am: |
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Fun takes patience. Some people have no patience, therefore they have no fun. Racing is serious business, but it can also be fun. When the goal is winning it can be fun. When the goal is prize money and sponsor money then it gets serious. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 01:15 pm: |
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Quote:Fun takes patience. Some people have no patience, therefore they have no fun.
Can I quote that??? |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 04:47 pm: |
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It would seem fair to me to allocate the venues of a "World" Racing series competition based upon two factors.
1. Availability of required facilities (track, safety, and spectator support).
2. Number and concentration of sport bike and racing enthusiasts.
Nigeria? How many sport bikes get sold in Nigeria?  |
Crusty
| | Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 08:32 am: |
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How many sport bikes are sold in Malaysia? |
Lornce
| | Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 10:16 am: |
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Crusty,
No personal experience of Malaysia, but last time in Singapore (off southern tip of Malaysia) the roads were awash in exotic, lightweight Japanese sportbikes. Those folks paid large for those bikes too, much more than you'd pay in the US for same. I'd be willing to bet the streets of Kuala Lumpur are similar.
Lornce |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 12:03 pm: |
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Heres the latest crop of sportbikes to be sold in the philippines.
 |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 01:36 am: |
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http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=4608
Quote:I have been reading with interest about the Boxer Cup at Daytona and Erik Buell's response to the elimination of the Pro Thunder class. I would like to add the following:
I was in the AMA offices years ago when they were discussing eliminating the old Sportster class. They brought up the fact that they were down to six or seven entries at some events and interest was at an all-time low.
I asked that they consider running a series that ran all of the air-cooled Twins together along with Singles and some of the Triples, much like the BEARS class. They might be able to keep Harley-Davidson's support and let them compete with their real sportbike - Buell against other machines with similar performance and price. I pointed out that it would have more publicity value for Harley-Davidson to compete with other motorcycles in the same market.
The other key players like Ducati with their air-cooled two-valve Supersport line along with Moto Guzzi, BMW and others are often bought for daily riding by hard-core enthusiasts that are likely to attend the AMA road racing series and become AMA members. The class could also be a good place for a new racer to get noticed.
They said that it sounded good and asked me to put it on paper. When I wrote the paper, the points that I stressed were that to keep any one machine from dominating they DO NOT ALLOW the new Triumph 955 Water-cooled Triple and the Ducati 748.
Well, somehow some Triumph folks lobbied hard and got the machine in. The Triumph won six of the top 10 spots in the Championship the first season.
The next time I spoke with the AMA Pro Racing guys I politely asked what they were going to do to even up the chances for other brands and they told me that they were going to include the 748. I stated in the strongest terms that the 748 would TAKE OVER the class and the only other bikes near the front would be a few factory supported Buells. They said that they had it all figured out and that would not happen.
We all know what did happen and now the class is to be eliminated.
Even today they could make a set of rules that would allow for a number of different brands to compete. Air-cooled Twins up to 1000cc and water-cooled Twins up to 650cc would work reasonably well. Many of us enjoy the sound of the twin-cylinder machines on the track.
I think that it is a shame that the AMA and AMA Pro Racing have become two entities. If they could go back to having the same goals of attracting members rather and being inclusive rather than exclusive, I think that we will all be better off for it.
The elimination of the 250GP class is another mistake that is certain to alienate AMA members and enthusiasts as well.
As a long-time AMA supporter I hope that something can be worked out.
Jerry Wood
Reprinted with permission from Road Racing World and Motorcycle Technology.
Why did they sabotage the series?... JDNL. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 01:48 am: |
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Court,
The complete transcript can be found here.
Date of correspondence was November 1st and 2nd, 2002. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 11:43 pm: |
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From an AMA Pro Racing press release about the Suzuki Accessories Superstock Series...
Quote:Suzuki's long dominance of the class could come under fire this year from factory Kawasaki and Yamaha efforts. While the major Suzuki teams in the series are factory-supported squads, Kawasaki and Yamaha are fielding full-fledged factory teams."
No, don't let Buell race the XB9R in Supersport where they might be competitive, put them in against factory teams in the faster Superstock class. What a friggin' joke. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 07:51 am: |
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What are they fielding? Neither has a competetive 750, so Buell would be competing against 600's anyway, right? (well, the Kaw is a 636) |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 04:07 pm: |
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Did you miss the "full-fledged factory teams" part?
Buell has no such team. At least not that I am yet aware of. JQ, was contending, even though the bikes are WAY faster, that Buell racers should first get their feet wet in Superstock since it was not a professional series like supersport or superbike. Turns out that isn't true anymore.
Yeah, if Suzuki fields a top rider, they will walk away with the series. Expect that to happen.
Where the heck is JQ anyway? Oh yeah, he's in Daytona, where I wish I could be. Crap. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 05:38 pm: |
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Yes but...
The full fledged factory teams are 600's, the bikes that you contend they should be allowed to compete with. If suzuki puts mladin (forkin ice hole) on a ss-spec 750, they'll cruise.
I know people who have gone to Daytona who will never set foot inside the track. What a waste. I imagine JQ will not suffer that malady... |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 06:48 pm: |
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How does having 600's competing in Superstock detract from the idea that Buells should be allowed to race in supersport but are excluded?
And again, I only raised the point to counter JQ's contention that the Buells should first race in a non-factory dominated class before being allowed to compete in Supersport. |
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