| Author | Message | ||
     Eboos |
First off let me say that I am not a smoker, but if I was running things in Camel and Marlboro, I would be pretty pissed off that my logo's are being hidden. If you look in several magazines you will see that the Yamaha and Ducati bikes cigarette sponsor logos have been replaced with "Team" in the case of Yamaha's Camel title sponsor, and just a blank white box there Ducati's Marlboro logos should be. I find this in mostly Road Racer X magazine (also the official US GP program which was done by RRX mag), but more interesting is that Dianese's Rossi replica suit has the same "Team" logo on it and is labeled as "Debranded". Now weather or not you like cigarettes of tobacco companies is not the point, the point is that these companies spent a lot of money to sponsor these riders and gain exposure for their brand. Is there some type of mandated censorship of these brands? If so, how come Gauloises wasn't blocked last year, isn't that a cigarette company? If we are pitching a fit over cigarettes, why not beer too. I still see Corona's logos properly displayed. The trouble is, Camel is expected not to renue with Yamaha next year, and like the brand or not, I think that this is just bad for the sport. I don't know if this had anything to do with it, but I know that if I was spending my money to run a team, I would want my logos everywhere. Edit: My bad, Gauloises was covered with GO!!!!!!! last year. (Message edited by eboos on October 13, 2006) | ||
| Slaughter |
Those logos are changed where required by local laws. Laguna Seca doesn't allow cigarette advertising and the sponsors know it and are stuck with it. Winston can no longer sponsor a branded race car or series either. Not their choice. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Some countries where they hold MotoGP races have very strict laws against advertising for cigarettes. It's all part of the game for them as sponsors. Of course they don't like it, but I guess they get more than enough exposure at the tracks where they do run their logos to offset things. | ||
| Blake |
Communism. | ||
| Cadhopper |
I work for Philip Morris in a non tobacco R&D engineering department and it is my understanding that the Master Settlement Agreement which was made with the government a few years ago prohibits any cigarette manufacturer from advertising in plain sight of the general public. | ||
| Diablobrian |
I think what Eboos saw was a few pics from a GP in on of the countries with a ban in place. Relevant links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_advertising#Advertising_around_the_world http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=29546 http://www.tobacco.org/news/169810.html Other internet ponderings on the subject: http://www.rideontwo.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=708&sid=110c689cbe8f23bf8c898c4d7 97b930e This stuff goes on and on. I am not a smoker, but I wish that the governments involved in these bans would just outlaw the things and get it over with rather than trying to use punitive taxes and advertising restrictions plus wasting huge portions of the federal, state and local budgets.....our tax dollars... financing anti-smoking ad campaigns. Just say NO! Oh wait. The politicians are addicted to the campaign contributions and honorariums they get from the tobacco lobby. Either outlaw it or get off their backs. I just get sick of my freedoms being eroded because the politicians think that they know better than I do what I should and shouldn't do, and they get to judge how my money should be spent. Sorry this time of the election cycle I get really sick of all the ads about what this or that politician is going to do to make my life better when the best thing they could possibly do for me is stay out of my life and stop writing more laws, that take away my rights (in small increments)and imposing more taxes just so they can pat themselves on the backs and say "I did something" when all they really do is choke the people trying to make an honest living in red tape. Ok ok, my rant is over...sorry guys I got on a roll there and it got away from me. What was I talking about at the beginning?  | ||
| Eboos |
You are a wealth of information. Thanks. | ||
| Bads1 |
Brian....what you said should be a commercial. | ||
| Diablobrian |
Eboos- I do honestly try to help where I can. Bads1- that would be a little too close to being a politician for me. Lets just spread the word at a grass roots level okay?  Common sense should catch-on...at least with most people. But some men you just can't reach.... | ||
| Sinatra |
gauloiuse was changed to GO!!!!!!! in a few races last season... | ||
| Brucelee |
"I just get sick of my freedoms being eroded because the politicians think that they know better than I do what I should and shouldn't do, and they get to judge how my money should be spent." Sadly, that boat sailed long long ago. | ||
| Jackbequick |
I'm a little offended by the deceptive methods the tobacco companies used to sell tobacco, by their targeting children and teenagers in their advertising, and by their lying to smokers about the health issues for years. I detest the politicians that took money to look the other way and who forced government agencies to conceal or change the results on studies of the effects of smoking on health. Like with any addictive behavior, if you want to have a logical discussion of the pros and cons, the dealers of the addictive substance and the addicted are not good choices for having the discussion with. I quit smoking on January 18, 1981, after smoking for twenty-odd years, and don't miss it one bit. I consider smoking to be one of the dumbest things I ever did. It is a destructive behavior. Jack | ||
| Eboos |
I grew up in the 80's and 90's. There was no mistake about the health effects of smoking then, just as there is now. I have to say it bluntly, but if anyone took up smoking during that period of time it is because they were stupid. Yes that's right, if you began smoking after 1980, you were stupid! Being stupid every now and then is not a completely bad thing, but you have to recognize that you are stupid. Blaming your stupidity on others, especially if you claim that you were lured by advertising, is just a further testament of your grand stupidity. | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: "Communism." It may be a lot of things, but it is not communism...which is "1. A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members." | ||
| Blake |
But we don't need to rely on theory. We know what communism is theoretically supposed to be and what it actually ends up being an they are two entirely different things. From my view communism has ended up being gross oppression of the people as dictated by a few who imagine they know better how folks should live their lives and what choices they should be able to make. Communism. At least the anti-tobacco nations are not yet seeking to slaughter all those who disagree with their policies on tobacco. | ||
| Ebear |
Not Yet.............. | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: "But we don't need to rely on theory. We know what communism is theoretically supposed to be and what it actually ends up being an they are two entirely different things. From my view communism has ended up being gross oppression of the people as dictated by a few who imagine they know better how folks should live their lives and what choices they should be able to make. Communism. At least the anti-tobacco nations are not yet seeking to slaughter all those who disagree with their policies on tobacco." I don't think there has ever been a true communist government in power. Actually, the best folks have ever been able to manage has been a commune on a very small scale. With human nature being what it is (where a fairly large percentage of folks don't want to pull their own weight) I doubt that communism would ever work. I think what you are talking about is a totalitarian regime, which is nothing like true communism. The World has lots of those! Our country has supported and currently supports them! Do dictatorships oppress the people...sure they do. We might as well call them what they are rather than perpetuating the myth that they are communist. By your definition of a government where "gross oppression of the people as dictated by a few who imagine they know better how folks should live their lives and what choices they should be able to make.", you could be talking about our representative government in the US...by definition. Regarding the "anti-tobacco nations", whoever that means, slaughtering all of those who disagree on their policy on tobacco...let's just say that would be highly unlikely. That is the US government's modus operandi towards countries where illicit drugs are grown that disagree with our policy (like in Columbia, Bolivia and Peru). The US drug policy is not based on science, but rather hysteria and taboos. If you consider the relative toxicity, addictive properties and mortality rates of tobacco compared to illicit drugs, there really is no comparison. Tobacco beats them all easily hands down. So, wouldn't that justify the governments of countries where the US tobacco companies ship their lethal products to enslave their youth to ban advertising of them? That seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. jimidan | ||
| Buellshyter |
You can smoke your ass off in Russia and China - go figure!!! | ||
| Jimidan |
Eboos sez: "Being stupid every now and then is not a completely bad thing, but you have to recognize that you are stupid. Blaming your stupidity on others, especially if you claim that you were lured by advertising, is just a further testament of your grand stupidity." Are you discounting the power of advertising on our youth? They are stupid by definition. Cigarette ads are aimed directly at the youth and, quite frankly, they are no match. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Diablobrian sez: "I am not a smoker, but I wish that the governments involved in these bans would just outlaw the things and get it over with rather than trying to use punitive taxes and advertising restrictions plus wasting huge portions of the federal, state and local budgets.....our tax dollars... financing anti-smoking ad campaigns. Just say NO!" So what you are proposing is that governments create a whole new class of criminals and the associated underworld to supply them? That would create approximately 60,000,000 new criminals (many of them in high school) in the US alone. What are you going to do with them...put them in jail? The US already incarcerates more of its citizenry per capita, than any other country...most of whom are in for non-violent drug offenses. How much of your tax dollars would you like to be spent on putting smokers in jail? History teaches us that it is vain to hope that drugs will ever disappear and that any effort to eliminate them from society is doomed to failure. The so called drug wars have been consistently lost, creating in its path ugly and ever-enlarging criminal networks that corrupt society and cause far worse damage than the substances they distribute. Just say NO was a failure. Besides, right now most anti-smoking ads are funded by the tobacco companies themselves as part of the legal settlement that they agreed to. Kentucky gets $25 million a year from this settlement money to promote anti-smoking...of which the legislature and governor skim off a mere $23,000,000 to the general fund to run some of the agencies in state government. That is partly why KY has the highest incidence of smoking in the nation, besides stupidity that is. | ||
| Brucelee |
You can always count on Jimi for an anti-American slant on just about any topic. Way to go Jimi. Your filter is always on! BTW-I don't have any issue with tobacco advertising. I DO have an issue with folks smoking in places where I hang out. | ||
| Blake |
For heaven's sake Jimi, clicky the italic, font or color formatting buttons for your quoted text eh? Or paste the quoted text inside the curly braces of the \quote{paste quoted text here} formatting tag, or heck you can now even use UBB code here too. I agree, actual communist nations are far different from what a theoretical communism is supposed to be. Thought I already said that. But they are what they are and they call themselves communists so it is what it is a lot more so than what in theory it is "supposed" to be. Yeah, they are also dictatorial. Wow, equating America to the oppressive nations of the world? Sorry, you've lost me on that one. You feeling oppressed or something?  America has a policy of slaughtering the people of nations who disagree with our illicit drug policy? WTF are you smoking? Stalin's regime murdered millions. Mao's regime murdered millions. Ho Chi Min and his comrades murdered millions. Pol Pot's regime murdered millions. Kim Il Sung and family murdered millions. Do you ever read some of the stuff you post. Some of it is very unfortunate stuff. | ||
| Jimidan |
Brucelee sez: {"You can always count on Jimi for an anti-American slant on just about any topic. Way to go Jimi. Your filter is always on!"} JD: You and I live in alternate universes so I don't think we can understand each other. Over here in my universe it makes perfect sense. Explain why it is anti-American to criticize this nation's draconian drug policies and the tobacco industry's marketing to kids in your universe? jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: {"For heaven's sake Jimi, clicky the italic, font or color formatting buttons for your quoted text eh? Or paste the quoted text inside the curly braces of the formatting tag, or heck you can now even use UBB code here too."} Is that French? I don't know French...I took Spanish in college, but I have forgotten most of that too. Those codes do not work anything like my WordPerfect or other sites like the ATC. Sorry. I will just have to use more spaces or something simple like that. You guys can't understand me anyway, so what does it really matter?  We live in parallel universes where the laws of physics are the same, but everything else is different. See, I can get the emoticons to work just fine...I am sooo smart! jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: "Wow, equating America to the oppressive nations of the world? Sorry, you've lost me on that one. You feeling oppressed or something?" Jimi: Actually, as a bona fide member of the middle class, I am feeling a bit oppressed. What conscious entity in my shoes (and universe  ) wouldn't? I think all of those folks who are rotting in jail for non-violent drug offenses are feeling a bit oppressed right now. I think that most of those who have seen their jobs shipped overseas are probably feeling a bit blue about it too. I think those of us who have seen the rich get a lot richer and the poor a lot poorer in the last few years are having some second thoughts about it also. The list goes on, but aren't all of these things just propaganda perpetuated by the anti-American, left wing controlled, Hillary Clinton discharge tainted, Bush bashin' news media that are just trying to make a simple down-home cowboy look bad? We need to be afraid...very afraid. Insurgents are everywhere! I think the case is being made in the rest of the world that America is becoming one of the more oppressive nations. I don't buy their arguments completely, although I see where they are coming from...and I am glad I am not in their shoes. It is like when I used to work with the US Attorney's Office on criminal prosecutions...I was glad they were not after me. Pit bulls have nothing on those guys. The question is: Is it still telling a lie if you believe it to be true? The second question is: If rap is to music as graffiti is to art, is that a good or bad thing for rap? The way you answer these questions will determine which universe you are in. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: "America has a policy of slaughtering the people of nations who disagree with our illicit drug policy? WTF are you smoking? Stalin's regime murdered millions. Mao's regime murdered millions. Ho Chi Min and his comrades murdered millions. Pol Pot's regime murdered millions. Kim Il Sung and family murdered millions." Jimi: I never equated the US's actions in country's like Columbia, Boliva, Peru, and Panama to Stalin, Mao, or any of those your mention. Those are the heavy hitters of all time, although there was that little thing about the American Indians...and oh yeah, the slaves. But the families of those 2,500 folks who were killed in Panama during the assault on that country to take out Noriega might disagree. Or all of those peasant folks in Columbia, Boliva and Peru who have been taken out by the US in its coca eradication efforts. But if you don't believe that these things ever happened, then I guess you are correct. They happened in my universe and the documentation exists to prove it...but we all know it is just left wing, communist plot infiltrated, Monica Lewinski's dress-stained (ewe!)  , Bill Clinton's did not inhale smokin', pinko gay marriage totin', partial birth abortion, stem cell biological waste. jimidan | ||
| Blake |
UBB code is what ATC uses and much of it works here too.  You just need to enter it mannualy. Or simply clicky on one of the buttons. I like using blue to indicate quoted statements.
I think the above definition of the verb form of "lie" answers your first question. I don't know if it is good or bad for rap if it is to music as graffiti is to art. Not sure that is a valid allegory as some "grafitti" is subjected upon us whether we like it or not and sometimes by defacing public property. So creating grafitti can be and often is criminal. Not sure that is true of rap music. Rap can be offensive, but you can usually choose to listen to it or not. Isn't music a form of art? I like some rap just as I like some grafitti. Native Americans? Good point. You win that one. But can we please frame the debate within the modern era? Please direct me to the reporting of attrocities commited by America in modern times against the innocent people of Columbia or Panama, or Peru, or Chile or whatever you said. These "folk" in Panama who died, they weren't Panamanian military opposing American forces and trying to protect Noriega were they?  "All the folks rotting in jail for non-violent drug offenses...." First, how many folks fit that description. Second, selling drugs to children may not be a violent act, but I'm fine with it being a serious crime. You make it sound like our government goes around looking for casual marijuana users to throw in jail. LOL! That just isn't true. Some folks may get prosecuted for that, but they certainly don't end up rotting in jail. Your gloriously emotional and over-dramatized rhetoric is not helpful. In fact that kind of nonesense just turns me off of debate. Try to stick to the facts. First, define for me what constitutes in your view "rotting in jail." You stated that "slaughtering all of those who disagree on their policy ... is the US government's modus operandi towards countries where illicit drugs are grown that disagree with our policy (like in Columbia, Bolivia and Peru)." You are a real piece of work. Do you actually believe that? Our military recruits are "the dregs of society" and our government's modus operandi is to "slaughter all those who disagree with out policy." Yet we are so concerned about human life that we refused to kill OBL for fear of possible collateral casualties. You are right, my reality is different from yours. I cannot agree with that more strongly. Unbelievable. "Just say no" has been a failure? Really? I guess you missed where drug use among young folk has dropped significantly. What is your solution, " if it feels good, just do it?" Do you ever offer any solutions or constructive criticism? The endless carping and naysaying is really tiresome. I have no problem with people getting wealthy. Don't know why that offends some folk. I do not believe that poor are getting poorer. Is it not true that a greater percentage of Americans own their own home now than in any other time in our modern history? It is "opression" in your mind when businesses seek to remain competitive on the world market and so take advantage of the same low cost production as does Japan and the EU? The free market is oppressive when folks find their skills no longer in high demand? Wow. You in my view have a very poor understanding of the effects of free enterprise and any curtailment to its progress short of monopoly. Can you give me an example of another nation that is more prosperous than America whre they do not support free enterprise and do not allow the freedom to exploit cheap foreign resources and services to stay competitive on the world market? Just one example would be great. Can you provide one? Would you prefer the double digit unemployment rates of what you probably consider the enlightened socialist nations of France or Germany? Gloom and doom, naysaying and complaining, accusing and carping, please, it is just miserableness. I am so tired of it. I really love my country and support it and know that we are much more good than not. I don't like hearing America knocked and derided at every turn. If you want to do that, there are other forums for that I'm sure. Call it what you will, but going around spouting that American military recruits are "the dregs of society" and that America's standard operating procedure is to "slaughter those who disagree with our policy" is simply unwelcome here. Anyone who wants to run down America will need to do it elsewhere than on BadWeB. Frankly I don't think you really honestly believe some of the stuff you post, but it is indeed what you are posting here. Words have meaning. We should choose our words very carefully. It is accurate to say that our military has loosened its standards for new recruits. It is accurate to say that as a result of American military operations, some civilians have died. | ||
| Brucelee |
Jimi should leave the US if he has any integrity at all. How can someone live in such an immoral and disgusting country? | ||
| Blake |
Stay on topic. Weren't we trying to discuss rap music graffiti?... Can't touch this! | ||
| Diablobrian |
Jimi you missed my point. I was saying that the punitive taxation is non-sense and that the government needs to get off the back of companies involved in LEGAL activities. If the government was genuinely concerned they would focus on the either the cause, or the effect. Not the income they can generate or campaign contributions they receive from the tobacco lobbies. I'm sick of laws written just so they can pat themselves on the back and say "they did something" when what they spew is just a re-itteration of another law that is already on the books. We need to get the government back in the hands of "citizen statesmen" that take time out from their career and then go back to business. Career poilticians are not what the founding fathers had in mind. Term limits are fought tooth and nail by these leeches because they have a good deal going. For instance: Al Gore Sr (father of the former vice president) is a retired career senator. He now makes twice as much as he ever did as an active senator through the congressional retirement program. No one would want to give up on a deal like that! All he, and his buddies, had to do was vote for increases (when it's not an election year of course) and push it up incrementally. I do not want a new class of criminals, what I do want is a little honesty about the intent of our polliticians. Punishing the people through punitive taxation for a legal action is just not right. Kind of like if they were to impose a usage tax on motorcycles because of increased health care costs (the same argument as used for cigarettes) my question would still be why not just make them illegal instead? After all of the money they collect very little really makes it to healthcare. Most goes to the general fund and ends up in someone's pet project (diverting the funds to their home state) But that's just my opinion. |
