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Ar15ls1
| | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 07:35 pm: | 
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Sushi chic, post some more pic of yourself! You look very cute in your signature. |
1313
| | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 08:08 pm: |
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150 bhp is a nice goal. If you got the stock airbox, it will only flow to support 140 bhp though. Odds are you don't, but this is some little known trivia about the XB's...
1313
P.S. Yeah, I know I have much better things to do while I am in Berlin. In fact tomorrow I am going to München (Munich) for the weekend to check out the IMOT show and an H-D oriented show (Good Vibrations). I will try to post photos if anything interesting (Buell) is at either show, but it will take me developing my film and then taking digital pics of the photos. Who knows, I will probably have a lot of good photos for the NC-17 pages...  |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 09:21 pm: |
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Sushichick,I have a real nice S-2 putting out only 121 H.P.,when and where do I get my ride.(And soon to be putting out more,as we get ready for another year at Bonneville.)P.S. Its a great riding streetbike as it is,too. |
Misato
| | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 09:23 pm: |
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yeah, lets see some pics of you and your bike! |
Newfie_Buell
| | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 09:42 pm: |
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Don't take any offence, I usually say what ever is on my mind.
Welcome to the Buell Family and enjoy the board.
If the shift thingy is leaking then take it in right away, expecially if you put that stop leak stuff in it. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 10:03 pm: |
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LakeBueller,
Hal's swingarm is not extensively modified from stock for strength. It is modified for the chain drive only. It had a chain rub block welded into an area on the swingarm that has a significant load, and since the swingarm wasn't able to be re-heat-treated after this, the swingarm removable brace was welded in place with a gusset plate. This was only done to get the swingarm back to stock strength. Trust me, I really know.
Hal's bikes have very stock chassis, just minimal mods to suit rider and track (triple clamp offset, suspension adjustments, etc.), and is substantially superior to a Ducati RS chassis. Ask the Ducati guys who raced against it, and the guys who have ridden against it. All it needed last year to win the championship was about 15 more horsepower.
This experimental bike is interesting, but I do not understand why it has the exhaust and oil tank moved to where they hurt the CG. After all, Honda is now trying to patent the Buell underslung exhaust because it has superior mass centralization and helps handling. Oh well, everyone deserves a chance to experiment. Sure will be neat if it makes 150 reliable HP. |
Buckinfubba
| | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 10:10 pm: |
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I,ve been thinkin alot today about the 9k redline and 150 at the wheel. Now I ain't sayin it can't be done on a race bike but damn 9k with push rods for a ten or so odd lap race is a load on the valve train . I know where we have our race bikes and I don't think we've squeezed everything there is yet. and the duals will definately help with the hp. But again you see with our results of going just for pure hp doesn't always mean you finish the race.
Plus I am sure they are gonna strenghten the swing arm they know it won't , in stock form hold the chain drive effectively.
By the way Josh tripp says hello
Sushichick don't worry about these folks its all in fun but yeah get the bike in and change those fluids. then ride the hell out of the thing. |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 01:14 am: |
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Bubba-
Remember that it uses a substantially shorter stroke than stock XB... At least that's what this post seems to insinuate.
-Saro |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 02:58 am: |
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Lake,
No matter the RWHP, how much stress can the engine/drivetrain put on the swingarm? No more than what causes the bike to wheelie right? See where I'm heading?
Anonymous,
What appears to be oil tank is an air/oil separator. The oil is still in the swingarm. I'm curious about the exhaust too. I'm guessing that they possibly needed equal length headers or a two into two for optimum performance. Might not have integrated/fit into the slung down under orientation with those HUGE pipes. Besides, isn't the center of mass quite a bit higher than the standard muffler location? At least he tucked one pipe underneath and the other back in under the tail to reduce roll axis inertia.
As short as the rear pipe is, it doesn't appear as though it would make it down and around the front of the engine. Either that or they are scheming to snag some of the Honda contingency too. heheheh. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 03:06 am: |
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Ben,
Touché. Let's wait for the dyno chart and the race results. I sure hope you are right. I'm a little concerned about durability if it indeed makes the power Josh is expecting. I sure hope it holds together and kicks some arse. Then the rules will probably be changed next year to limit a/c, p/r, twins to 1,210cc's. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 08:09 am: |
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Does anyone know anything about the planned TV coverage? Will I be able to watch this thing race in a few weeks? |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 08:52 am: |
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Blake:
Sure, the promise of 150hp is neat, but the real world wants to see the dyno chart. Now, I sincerely doubt that any race team would post it, so I guess we'll never know for sure. If the rules are changed as you suggest, I'll get right on the bandwagon with you.
Ben |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 07:20 pm: |
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Absolutly awsome! Where did you get the fairing? And are you going to use the stock rotor? |
S320002
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 07:34 pm: |
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Blake,
"No matter the RWHP, how much stress can the engine/drivetrain put on the swingarm? No more than what causes the bike to wheelie right? See where I'm heading?"
???
F=ma
With the same mass, more horsepower=more aceleration=more force (stress).
Where are you heading?
Greg |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 08:27 pm: |
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Blake,
Yes, the center of mass is higher than the stock muffler. However, mass centralization is kind of a misnomer, but it is used because it is easier to explain to laypersons. What you are truly after is mass centralizing optimization for roll, yaw and pitch axes, and various appropriate combinations of the above axes. The underslung muffler is far superior for this mass optimization. If you think about the axes, then you will see what I mean. In short, don't just look at roll, look at pitch and yaw. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 08:53 pm: |
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Buckinfubba,
Yes, the stock swingarm WILL hold all the horsepower you will ever get out of the motor, unless you modify the swingarm for chain clearance up near the front and then use it without heat-treating it. The alloy used on the XB swingarm is one which gains enormously in strength when heat-treated. Welding the adjustable axle sections on the back should not be a problem if done right, but welding up near the front where the cornering leverage stresses are high requies either re-heat-treat back to stock yield strength, or adding material to make up for the lowered yield strength. Trust me, I KNOW, I've seen the analyses and the test results!
Let me explain a little. The gusseting was added to last year's modified arms because we didn't have a jig to hold a reworked swingarm in place during heat treat. During heat-treat the swingarm will move around, but the stock swingarm is designed to minimize this, and is heat-treated prior to machining.
S320002,
Blake is right, the acceleration limit of tire traction/wheelie is the maximum force the vehicle will see. Basically this limit is around 1G, which takes far less than 150HP in first gear, believe me. What the extra power does is allow you to use the force to keep the vehicle at this acceleration rate or near it as long as possible. Since the chassis is designed for the 1G plus a significant safety factor, it does not matter how long the force is applied, which is the difference the extra horsepower provides. And believe me, even 150HP will not supply 1G acceleration for very long.
If the vehicle has aero devices for downforce, or radical wrinkle-wall type drag racing tires you can get more than the approximate 1G for a while, but neither of these choices would be good for a roadracing motorcycle! |
S320002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 11:14 pm: |
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Anon,
If your theory were true, chain/belt strength would only need to support slightly more than 1G acceleration. Do you have any idea what the tinsel strenght of a drive chain is?
Greg |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 11:56 pm: |
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Quote:tinsel strenght of a drive chain is
I don't know for sure, but I'm sure you need a lot of tinsel! |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 12:40 am: |
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S320002,
It's fact, not theory! A G is a measure of acceleration, not force. The force on the chain is still a function of the tire adhesion or wheelie limit, as Blake said. You could put 500HP in the chassis, and it still wouldn't put any more stress on the swingarm, it would just put it on for a lot longer period of time! |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 03:03 am: |
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Greg,
1.0 g with 600 LB of bike and rider yields, wait let me get me calculator   , exactly 600 LB. Now take the radius from axle centerline to pavement (with bike vertical) and divide by the pitch radius of the rear drive sprocket and multiply that times the 600 LBs. You should end up with a chain/belt tension load much greater than 600 LBs. Chains look big, but the only material carrying the tension via little pinned connections, are a series of pairs of little thin plates of steel. Cross sectional area is probably way less than 0.10 IN2. Plus the chain is subject to wear, plus the chain is subject to fatigue. Not to mention the little tiny pins themselves carrying all that load in shear. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 03:05 am: |
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Oh yeah, the drive chain can get real hot too. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 01:12 pm: |
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This is getting to be a really cool topic! Right, so let's do some calculations. Assume the sprocket is 1/4 the diameter of the tire...so the load on the chain/belt is 4*600lbf, or 2400 lbf. Now add a safety factor for violent events (I'll bet putting the front wheel against a wall and dropping the clutch for example might yield a momentary 1.3G), so we'll use 2400*1.4, or 3360 lbf.
Now, if the total side plate cross section at its narrowest point is 0.10 sqin, then we have a stress of 3360/.10, or 33,600lbf/sqin. If the pin is 3/16in. diameter, then its area is .027sqin. Multiply this by two, since the load should be equally distributed between the two ends of the pin (not always the case, remeber safety factors), so the stress on the pin is 3360/.027*2, or 62,000lbf/sqin.
Now to get fatigue strength (ie. the ability to take multiple applications of this event) we probably need a safety factor of 1.5 to get well out on the sN curve, so that gives us a stress of 93,000lbf/sqin.
Ok, this will require a heat treated material to survive. But heat treated material loses its strength when it gets hot...remember Blake's comment that chains get hot (REAL hot if they are not in an oil bath)?
What does this mean? VOILA...there goes the chain snaking down the track, and the bike pulls over at the side of the track. "But I spent all this money and reinforced my stock swingarm" says Mr. Supertuner Racer... "It must still be flexing...waaah, what a piece of crap" No, what you should have done is put on a fresh chain and lubed the snot out of it before the race, instead of being trick in areas where you have no knowledge.
Check again...back to the swingarm...let's see. In the narrowest section of the swingarm of my XB we measure about 2in by 1 in, with a 1 by 1 brace in addition. Since it's a casting, it probably has a wall thickness of .2, so this gives a total area of about 1.32 sqin. Wait a minute...there are two sides to this swingarm! And the other side is WAAAY bigger. OK, we'll cut the acceleration force in half, but let's put all of the chain force on this side.
So, 3600 lbf chain load, plus 300(half of the 1G acceleration)times our 1.4 factor gives a 4020lbf load distributed over 1.32 sqin. The XB swingarm has a stress of 3045 lbf/sqin on it's narrowest spot when it is at a 1.4G acceleration. Remember this is only a momentary condition...the majority of the time it is much less.
Once again, should you lube your chain (stressed to 93,000lbf/sqin), or modify your swingarm (stressed to 3045lbf/sqin)?
Now, obviously the massive strength overkill must be for chassis stiffness, which would follow Buell's rules for optimum handling, and the chassis must also handle cornering loads when at full acceleration.
But the lesson for the day is to do your maintenance and skip the trickery. I am an ex-pro racer, and that was the best lesson I learned in my way up. The guys who go fast focus on proper maintenance and their riding skills. The guys who go nowhere are always working on the latest "trick" item to win.
Wow, I really got into this...my blood's all warmed up thinking of racing, and I think I'm gonna go for a Firebolt ride!!! I don't need to lube my chain, and this chassis is WAAAAY understressed!!! |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 04:39 pm: |
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From the above, what I gather is that...
1. A normally worn drive chain's fatigue (cyclic durability) strength at elevated temperatures are significantly less than the ultimate tensile (static breaking) strength of a new chain at room temperature.
2. The tensile strength of a motorcycle final drive chain isn't near as great as one might imagine (much of the material comprising a chain is not carrying tensile load). |
Jscott
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 09:42 pm: |
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Josh,
Any news? Doesn't sound like you guys made it to Daytona - Hopefully you'll make the next one. Good luck in your campaign - the bike looks AWESOME!!! (Factory lurkers - please make this bike with full race fairings!!) |
Jscott
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 09:13 pm: |
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Updates? Don't let this thread die... |
Psychobueller
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 10:52 am: |
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Any news of how the XB9R did in the AMA Superstock race on Monday? |
Jscott
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 12:09 pm: |
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Psycobueller,
Here's where on of the Buells was today in the 15 lap AMA SuperStock race -
27. Dave Estok, Buell, -84.708 seconds |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 02:45 pm: |
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Apparently Dave was the ONLY Buell in that race. Pretty good showing considering they tried a last minute mod to the bike that had the opposite effect than desired (less power instead of more).
My fellow CMRA racer John Haner took 20th on a GSXR750.
The Daytona road course does not emphasize handling. It is a top speed blast around the oval with a juant through a chicane and the infield. Expect the XB9R to do better on tighter tracks. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 03:19 pm: |
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Still no updates?
Doesn't look like Estock will be racing at Fontana this weekend - his name is nowhere to be seen on the practice session sheets on ussuberbike.com - It's a shame I was hoping to see what a Buell could do. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 06:56 pm: |
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Updates? |
Grim_euphoria
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 11:15 pm: |
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What's the status? When can we see it race? Bike cam? |
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