| Author | Message | ||
     Detroit |
From Roadracingworld (Thanks Jose) At Road America practice times Superbike 1)Mat Mladin, Suzuki GSX-R750, 2:10.279 600 supersport 1)Aaron Yates, Suzuki, 2:17.282 Pro Thunder 1. Kirk McCarthy, Ducati 748RS, 2:20.228 2. Shawn Higbee, Buell XB9R, 2:23.103 3. Tom Montano, Ducati 748R, 2:23.895 4. Mike Ciccotto, Buell XB9R, 2:26.097 How can it be that a Suposedly stock engine 600 could be 3 seconds faster than Kirk McCarthys 748RS which probably is last years World supersport engine? The bike probably has Ohlins best suspension and Magnesium wheels. How can it be that a Suposedly stock engine 600 could be 6 seconds faster than the highly modified XB9R's? For example in I believe Motorcyclist 10 best streetbikes the Honda F4i was only :00.7 seconds faster on the track than a XB9R. Yet with minimal modifications to a 600Supersport F4i it rips a big bore XB9R with unobtanium this and unobtanium that? I know the yates time for 600 Supersport was not the F4i but a Gsxr 600. But the F4i was not far behind.  | ||
| Buelliedan |
For starters lets look at the quality of the riders. Aaron Yates has to be considered in the top 5 of American racers right now. McCarthy or Higbee maybe top 50? Maybe. Plus the Supersports are true factory teams not just factory supported. Those engines are supposed to be stock but that doesn't mean they are not perfectly balanced, flow tested, etc... | ||
| Xgecko |
Not to mention that Suzuki has been busted once this year for "Illegal" parts on their 600. I would guess that most if not all of the "Stock" 600's are well above the level of a real stock 600. I know that in WSS the 748 isn't all that competitive this year | ||
| Gravedigger |
Actually the article that you are refering to was in "CYCLE WORLD" The article was somewhat flattering but did not give an overwhwleming endorsement for the bolt. They admittedly threw in the f41 for added perspective. "We picked what we thought was the best all-around streetbike from each of nine different manufacturers, added the top rated 600 for some middleweight perspective, and hit the road." From what I understand was buell's theory on the bolt it seems to do exactly what they designed it to do. Be competitive with the current stock 600's but be in its own streetfighter class and not a race replica. They gave what they felt were the bolts up and down sides. Ups included "Was this engine really born in 1952?" "rubber mounts kill vibration" "zero driveline lash" "simple to maintain driveline needs no adjustment" "feels quicker than it is" Downs included "not for the one bike owner" "front brake needs better feel" "useless mirrors" (duh, aren't they on most buells) "drop swingarm, replace drivebelt at 15,000 miles" (this doesn't quite sound right to me fro some reason) "slower than it feels" The times seemed great for the bolt in the obstacle cours!!! Triumph Sprint ST 1:32.l2 Bmw R1150 RS 1:31.38 Ducati ST4S 1:30.40 Aprilia futura 1:30.28 Suzuki V-Strom 1:30.25 Kawasaki ZZ1200 1:19.97 Yamaha FZ1 1:29.97 Honda Interceptor 1:29:53 Buell Firebolt XB9R 1:27.22 Honda Cbr600F41 1:27.15 With these numbers I think that Buell accomplished exactly what they were trying to do. The FZ1 is yamaha's attempt to enter the streetbike/streetfighter with the R1 motor and the bolt beat it in a handling course by just over 2 seconds. I think they accomplished thier goal on thsi bike. | ||
| Aaron |
RA is a hugely fast track, my guess is that what you're seeing is in lap times has to do with the horsepower of these bikes & classes. | ||
| Superbad |
Don't think those Supersport "Stock" machines are anywhere close to showroom stock. Remember a few years ago @ Daytona a racer used the Claiming rule and got Duhamel's CBR600. Claiming is where you pay 150% of retail for a competitors motorcycle, it is not used much but it supposed to prevent spending way too much cash on supposed stock bikes. Well Duhamels bike had a Showa prototype shock supposedly worth $64,000.00. This upset Showa and Honda ALOT! Other racers have used the claiming rule to get Unobtainable Factory equipment like Ohlins tweaked forks. The prices are laid out in the rules, I haven't looked to see if the rule still exists in AMA Supersport. The pistons are matched in weight, and all the other parts are hand picked to build the bikes. They don't just get a bike out of a local dealers floor throw a pipe/jet kit, safety wire it and go racing. Bobby | ||
| Blake |
Top speed certainly helps. But wait for the qualifying times. These are just practice times. Yates and/or McCarthy could have been running on qualifying tires when he set that SS lap time, while the Buells were on race tires. I don't think there's any question that Mr. McCarthy is a darn talented rider. I'm staying tuned! | ||
| Xgecko |
Kirk McCarthy while talented is definatly cherry picking the Pro Thunder Class. Not that I think this is neccessarilly bad look what Maladin's Cherry Picky did to the Superbike Class. The Skill and desire of the rest of the competition went up in order to stay competitive (along with the money to make better bikes). I beleive that had Matt (and GoShow) been healthy this year Nicky would have his hands full. That said many of the folks in the upper classes of the AMA need to play on the World stage | ||
| Blake |
Gravedigger, "The FZ1 is yamaha's attempt to enter the streetbike/streetfighter with the R1 motor and the bolt beat it in a handling course by just over 2 seconds." Actually the FZ1's deficit wrt the XB9R was 2.75 seconds, closer to 3 than 2 seconds. | ||
| Dust_Storm |
Frankly, it really doesn't matter to me. I watch most of the races, but really after have the wonderous luxury of dealing with the Pro-Thunder People, I'm sold. Pro Thunder is where it's at, I wish more racers were as wonderful as the ProThunder guys. They would help you out with anything.  I have no doubt in my head that the 600's were just scrubbing in and getting ready. The real action with be with the V-Twins. Watch and see! [Ds] | ||
| Court |
I'd like to see a class where you must, as a condition precedent to entry, show pay stubs from the prior 8 weeks, in a REAL job. Hey...just a thought.  | ||
| José_Quiñones |
It's called Battletrax!  | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Seriously, if Pro Thunder even exists next year, they should duplicate the rules of the Canadian Thunder Series. Eligible Models: Motorcycle must be a sport type production model sold in Canada that was originally intended for street use. It must be air cooled, four-stroke, V-twin or horizontally opposed twin and be of model year 1992 or newer. However, of this type of bike, only the following models are currently eligible: BMW: R 1100S Buell: X-1, XB9R Firebolt, S1W, M2 Cyclone Ducati: M600, M620 i.e., M750, M900, 750SS, 900SS Moto Guzzi: V11 Sport -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Motorcycle Appearance: The motorcycle’s appearance must remain as close as possible to the original product. The addition of fairings to non-faired motorcycles is prohibited. The removal of fairings from faired motorcycles is prohibited, although original bodywork may be replaced by racing type bodywork as long as the replacement parts are true to their original counterparts. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Performance modifications: Engine must remain normally aspirated. Cubic capacity may only be increased by the amount allowed by OEM standard overbore pistons for each model. Air box and/or air filter may be altered or removed. However, no ‘ram air’ type devices will be allowed, as a replacement of or in conjunction with the air box if such a system was not part of the motorcycle’s original design. Exhaust system may be replaced with racing type system but the motorcycle must comply with the maximum sound level limit of 106 db, as per the test performed by the sanctioning body. Electric shifting aids or devices are not allowed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Power and Weight Limits: Maximum power is not to exceed 95hp, as measured at rear wheel. Minimum weight shall not be lower than 385 lbs at the end of a race. The race officials may randomly select participating motorcycles immediately after a race, to be tested for power and weight compliance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Suspension modifications: Forks can be altered internally by the addition of commercially available components such as valve kits, springs, etc. Original forks and triple clamps must be retained. Rear shock absorber(s) may be modified or replaced with commercially available units. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brake modifications: Brake pads may be replaced with racing pads. Replacement stainless steel or other high performance brake lines is also permitted, otherwise all other braking components must remain stock. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chassis modifications: Main frame must remain unaltered. Sub frame may be removed or altered. Handlebars and footrests may be relocated. Handlebars may be replaced with clip-ons. Final drive type may be altered to benefit gearing changes i.e. belt drive to chain drive but original wheels must be retained. Stock swing arm must be retained, unaltered, unless the installation of a chain prevents its usage. Tires must be DOT approved, preferably in racing compounds. Rain tires are allowed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Required modifications: Safety wire must be applied to oil drain plugs, filler plugs, front and rear axle nuts. External spin on oil filters must be attached with a hose clamp/safety wire combination. Any safety wiring or securing devices must comply with the rules as stipulated in the rulebook. If ballast weight is used to attain required minimum weight standards, it must be securely clamped to the frame of the motorcycle in a safe manner. Lights, turn signals, mirrors and OEM stands must be removed. Numbers can be displayed directly on body panels but must be on a white background. Non-faired motorcycles must have white 10" x 12" number plates installed. Numbers must be at least 8" tall and plainly visible. Numbers may be black or red depending on rider status. Motorcycles must comply with existing ASM and RACE Supersport safety regulations and are subject to safety inspections by race officials prior to each event. All motorcycles must display series sponsor decals at each event in a pre-designated area. Each model will have a pre-determined location that must be reserved for the application of said decals, and may vary with the type of motorcycle. Racers that do not comply will not be awarded points for the event that the decal requirements were not matched. This does not take effect if application of the decals is not possible due to damage incurred onto the motorcycle during an event. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Recommendations: Rivet type master links are recommended on drive chains. A steering damper is recommended. The fitment of oil catching belly pan is recommended. The appearance of a racing motorcycle is important and participants are urged to keep their machines clean and presentable at all times. Common sense should be exercised when preparing a race bike. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rider Gear: Leather suits must be worn and be of single or zip-together two piece design. Leather boots must be worn and be shin high - steel toe capped boots are not allowed. Gloves must be worn. Helmets must be full-faced design and meet or exceed Snell 2000 standards. All equipment must be of good quality and in good condition in order to pass tech inspection. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eligible participants: Any motorcycle racer holding a racing license recognised by the ASM and RACE organizations, Pro or Amateur, can participate in the Canadian Thunder Racing Series. | ||
| Gravedigger |
Jose' Though I have not ridden a Battletrax.  The course that "Cycle World" used for this test appears to be in the same spirit as Battletrax. This speaks very highly for the bolt in that form of competition. Blake, Your right, it is closer to 3 seconds than 2! | ||
| Blake |
Just to clarify a bit... Battle Trax is a 1st gear only affair were speeds do not exceed 40 mph; the CW course saw speeds up to 85 mph. I agree though, they both emphasize handling over speed. | ||
| Dynarider |
Battletrax is all about handling. The fastest bike we have had so far in our wisconsin series has been a Blast. Not exactly a high hp machine. The rider on it has pretty much scraped off all of the pegs & the shifter so he has more ground clearance, but he is damn fast. Usually has me beat by .5 seconds. Him & a factory rep on a firebolt are neck & neck with their times. Cant wait to get out on Road america wednesday. Gonna be fun, but it is a very long, hi hp track. Cant wait to see what kinda times I post compared to the ones listed earlier. Hope I can at least keep em under 3 minutes | ||
| Dynarider |
1 more thing & I hope this doesnt sound dumb. Those times posted, is that from a standing start, or after they are already up to speed? | ||
| Blake |
Those are hot laps, already up to speed when they cross the S/F line and start timing. | ||
| Dynarider |
Almost hit my goal of 3 minutes laps at RA. Started out right around 3:18 & ended up working them down to 3:04. Gives a new appreciation for those pros & the times they post. Hell even in the expert class the times were in the 2:45 range for the fastest guys. Thats way off the mark the pros set. |
