| Author | Message | ||
     Benm2 |
Are you talking about the PB article where the Buell was about 28th slowest overall on their test track? Didn't they say in the same article that they expected the Buell to be the among the fastest on the twisty bits but it wasn't? Is that the right article for the scientific data? Maybe I'm just remembering wrong, as I only read the magazine utilizing my "free" subscription at the local Barnes & Noble, but that's what I saw. Feel free to correct me as you see fit. If PB had concluded that Buells were crap, and slower than 86 CX500 through the turns, you'd be first in line to discount the "scientific methods" used by PB. You can be quite analytical when you want to be, just be fair here. The Buell has won an award, and a cover, for making a fine handling sportbike. The magazine has said its the "Best Ever", like so many infomercials on TV. I'm not trying in any way to take anything away from Buell, its a great thing to see. But there's no "proof" in that pudding. Again, if PB or Bike had arrived at a magic way to quantify "cornering", the corp's would be all over that. There is no doubt that their telemetry equipment would exceed the depth & quality that the mag(s) used. So far, in many arenas, there doesn't seem to be a wonder-solution. While I certainly agree its a great thing to see for Buell, and I sincerely hope it increases sales numbers, it isn't scientific fact. | ||
| Blake |
Two generations of Honda CBR600? I don't think so, unless you count adding EFI as a new generation. That was an interesting new version where the peak performance dropped by like ten HP. The CBR600F4 debuted in model year 1999, calendar year 1998. The other bikes have similar histories, two new versions in three years? I don't see it. Buell model upgrade history is not anything to sneeze at especially considering their size and means twelve years ago... 1994/S2: Stock Sporty engine, 60RWHP? 1996/S1: Lightning heads, cams, etc... 70+RWHP? 1997/S1W: Thunderstorm heads... 80+ RWHP 1999: DDFI 2003: New 984cc engine - highest performing air-cooled engine in the industry (HP/cc)... 75 RWHP 2004: XB12 engine... 90RWHP Speaking of resting on laurels... Hey, how about that SV650? Gotta love those new break-away crankshafts introduced in the 2005 models. Good thing Suzuki didn't see fit to "rest on their laurels" eh?  But you are twisting issue. Your comments RE Buells as track bikes was the issue, not whether or not Buell is resting on its laurels. Please try to stay focused.  You are right, the Vallejo win in AFM F-IV was a notable accomplishment for a Buell racer. "Extremely talented riders"... you mean like Michael Barnes and Larry Peagram? How do you think Mike Cicotto on a race kitted stock XB12R would do in an AFM F-IV race? Bringing up the win at Louden three years ago by Eric Wood on an XB9R was not intended to show that a Buell XB9R is the best racing machine ever, only that it is indeed a capable and efficient racing platform. My point was that if it can so quickly be made successful against 600cc IL4 repli-racers, then certainly it should not be too much trouble to ready it for competition against the hordes of SV650's and other LW class entries. Again, please try to stay focused.  I'm perfectly comfortable saying that Buells have dominated FUSA Thunderbike. I didn't limit that statement to only this year's results. Pretty sure a Buell racer has won the championship every year since its inception. Pretty sure that of the top ten racers in the series this year, nine are racing Buells. I guess that may not fit everyone's definition for "dominant", but it sure seems dominant to me. It is good to see someone on an SV650 putting up the good fight. I don't understand why more Ducati enthusiasts are involved in the series. Seems like a 1000SS would be a great contender. Don't be shamed. Come to OHR. | ||
| Blake |
Ben, "But there's no "proof" in that pudding." Sure there is. Maybe try reading the article before commenting on it. No it was not the track test one to which you referred. That track included those things called "straights" one of which was two miles long, and I'm thinking they used an XB9 not an XB12 in that particular scheme. I'd really appreciate if you could leave your personal critiques of me out of this discussion. That kind of commentary has no place here and indicates a weakness in one's case. Reverting to personal attacks is almost always an indicator of an opinion that lacks merit. If you'd like to start a topic about me, please feel free to do so. This ain't that topic. Let me see if I have your logic straight though... You didn't read the article, and you don't know what it said, but even if it says that the Buell XB12R is the best cornering bike, no matter how that was determined, it cannnot be factual, since if the article stated otherwise, Blake would have argued against its validity. Is that your logic Ben? LOL! Dude. (Message edited by blake on August 03, 2005) | ||
| M1combat |
Are you all referring to the win at NHIS? If so, I seem to remember that Wood set the lap record for that track and class in qualifying too... I don't know if it still stands. | ||
| Xlcr |
No, Jon, I'm not sorry about anything I said. If things don't go my way, oh well. I love Buells, but this isn't the only board on the net. I should probably spend less time in places like this and more time riding anyway. (Message edited by xlcr on August 04, 2005) | ||
| Eeeeek |
Blake, First, drop the condescending attitude. You accusing me of bouncing around? Kettle black. I'm responding to your tangents. You want me to stay focused, then stop wandering. As a side note, you may want to check the real HP numbers of the 1000DS engine. You seriously underestimate the caliber of AFM racers. A race kitted, otherwise stock XB would have nothing for the front runners in FIV no matter who you put on it. It's a moot point, though, much like having Cecil out at your track: It ain't gonna happen. I guess BIKE magazine could come up with a formula to tell you what the results are, though. Vik | ||
| Xb12rene |
I guess this is the article Blake is referring to click here and then on the second article. But I have another article, I believe it is also from a british magazine, there they compared streetfighters and the XB12S came in on one of the last places (mostly due to the engine and not the handling). I try to find it on the WWW and post the link tomorrow (sorry for that). I think Erik put with the XB a superb bike on the road and more and more people start to appreciate his vision, and just have fun with it. Instead of arguing if it now the "Best Cornering Bike Ever" or not, shouldn't we go out riding(whichever bike) and have fun. Have Fun Rene | ||
| Jima4media |
So here is the list of the Top 10 Best Cornering Bikes according to Bike magazine. Thanks for polkaing this info into the machine Norm.... 1st with 154 points Buell XB12R (scores of 10, 9, 10, 6, 9, 7, 2) 2nd with 153 points, Aprilia 125 (10, 10, 10, 2, 2, 9, 2) 3rd 93.3 Triumph Daytona 650 3 (9, 9, 8, 7, 7, 7, 3) 4th 97.0 1956 BSA Gold Star (5, 7, 5, 4, 8, 9, 3) 5th 85.3 BMW R1200GS (5, 6, 6, 6, 9, 8, 3). 6th 84.0 GSX-R600 K5 7th 82.7 1975 Ducati 900SS 8th 80.0 Buell XB12S 9th 77.0 Aprilia Pegaso Strada 10th 74.3 Husaberg FS Supermoto 650e | ||
| Jima4media |
How can a 1956 BSA Gold Star be 4 positions better than a Buell XB12S, which is the same bike as the first place XB12R? New Math. | ||
| Blake |
Who's being condescending? Please note the smilees. No condescension intended here, young man. (I'm JOKING!)  I'm older, I'm allowed to have stray thoughts. You are young and have a child. You need to stay focused. "A race kitted, otherwise stock XB would have nothing for the front runners in FIV no matter who you put on it." How do you figure? I'm assuming racing tires, a fairing and chain final drive of course, Buell racing springs, just the most basic of racing accoutrements. So how do you figure such a bike could not compete? Not enough power? What? I say... Better a formula based on analytical reason and the laws of physics backed up with actual measurements than a mere opinion. Would be interesting to here what Walt Sipp or Steve Slaughter would say on the matter of a race kitted XB12R running in your F-IV. | ||
| Blake |
René, Yes that's the one. The color coding of the graphs is messed up but read the conclusion and the notation on the photo of the XB12R above it on page 11 of the PDF (page 066 of the magazine). Here's what Performance Bikes staff found: By "figures" they mean their timed corner interval test results. Congratulation Buell! I'm tired of this too. What's next? | ||
| Jon |
This is an excellent thread! Let's get back to harmless sarcasm and thick skin! Alright, girls!! Stop yer fault findin' and start discussing the fact that undeniably, Buell is THE BEST period! If you don't ride a Buell, you might as well be a terrorist. Yeah, that's it...A TERRORIST! Now that's just plain un-American! OK class, that's how it's done in the big leagues. ...proceed at the sound of the whistle......."TWEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!  | ||
| Jon |
Xlcr, You're not the scape goat, bud. You're among freinds, too. Don't sweat it. Jon Yes, Buells DO rock. | ||
| Xlcr |
Well, I suspect this may be my last post here. Starting tomorrow, I'm going to try to spend less time on the computer and more in the real world. But before I go, I have a prediction to make. What you've seen on this thread is no accident, and it will get a lot worse. Nor it is just happening here, the argument over this magazine cover is raging all over the Internet as we speak. It is especially nasty at CF and Gigabikes. Why? Because it is a symbol of Buell success. And why will it get worse? Because I believe Buell is now on a roll. I think this is only the beginning. I think the Ulysses will be a big seller. I suspect they are finally on the road to real success. Which is exactly why it will get worse. It will drive them crazy. If just a magazine cover does this, can you imagine, just for the sake of discussion, what would happen if Buell ever produced a world-class superbike, big HP and all? I can. Certain people would be raging, banging their heads against walls, frothing at the mouth..... OK, so that might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I do believe if that ever happened the Buell boards would see knock down, drag out arguments that would make this look like a dress rehearsal. As it is, the more successful Buell is, the more those that hate to see it will fight back on line. Be compassionate with your mods, folks, They may just have a rough future ahead of them. Seeya! | ||
| Eeeeek |
Steve has never raced in the AFM. I don't think he's even seen one of our races, so how would he be able to come to a conclusion? I don't know if Walt Sipp has any experience with the AFM. Maybe Shawn Reily could give an unbiased opinion. Whether he agrees with me or not, I'd accept his conclusion. Again, you are severly underestimating the AFM. Vik | ||
| Blake |
Vic, How? AFM is one of the major regional clubs in the nation. It produces a lot of professional racers. Please explain why a race kitted XB12R couldn't compete in AFM F-IV. Ain't 95rwhp gonna be fast enough? Where's it gonna fall short Vic? What kind of performance does you SV produce? Xlcr, What is your deal dude? Good grief, your conspiracy theories are interesting but I find them hard to swallow. I know for a fact that a lot of the naysayers would love to see a Buell superbike. Not that they ever will. I think Erik has made that very clear. It is just motorcycles and us guys who enjoy riding them. Try posting something positive and uplifting. Please. Good grief, you're just asking for more ridicule. Life is way too short and often we don't know how darn short it really is. Look to the light. | ||
| Blake |
I think you are severely underestimating the XB12R. | ||
| Eeeeek |
My SV is moot. It is built for longevity, not a podium finish. There are things I need to work on before it is power that's holding me back. Power will be a consideration for your XB; but not only one. Mike Lohmeyer's VFR400 was pulling Shawn Reilly's monster XB12 on the back straight. The bikes that run up front have had years of development and the front runners hold multiple class chamionships and more than one #1 CCS plate. Ask Slaughter how Jeff Tigert does when he ventures down to Willow Springs. Tigert rides one of Zoran's bikes now and then. Ironically, Kurt Spenser's SV has an S1 tail section. He likes the look. Alas, this particular debate is silly, as I have already stated, as it will never happen. Through it all, I'd still like to race an XB. I've made that know many, many times. They are just cost prohibitive. Kurt will be selling his front running SV at the end of this season for $5000. Good luck finding a race winning XB for near that price. Vik | ||
| Phatkidwit1eye |
I love it!! Especially when it gets all the Repli Racer guys all pissy. | ||
| Court |
Buell is demonstrating great progress as they launch a marketplace hit. This will agitate many folks. Louis Rukeyser once wrote "success offends buerecrats". A similar phenomenon has, since the early days of Buell, existed. The world has many folks who, rather than achieve, succeed and celebrate choose to appoint themselves arbitrators in society and instead comment on the efforts of others. You've heard their rallying call "I told you so" which they offer as a reason not to try. I've seen it so long in the world of Buell that what was once a source of irritation has evolved to a source of endless entertainment. I've found that, with each year's Buell progress, there are always a group of otherwise knowledgable folks driven to do terribly foolish things and say totally baseless (see recent in-depth reviews of the September (note we are in the first days of August) issue of a magazine. Let these folks go. They are self-perpetuating and come in two models the one who screams the rant and the one who follows with "yeah, that's right". Few listen, fewer believe and no one cares. From a emotional health perspective, I hope nothing on the internet ever drives me to have to pick the phone up and place a "what ya gonna do about it?" call. As warped is the person, the one receiving the call, who placed all that information in the internet, played the first 3 quarters of the game and cried foul only when the ball was advanced inside the 20 yard line. You start one of those talks, deride and denounce other, be prepared for the consequences. The best prescription, aware that this falls on deaf ears, is to go buy whatever you want. Heck, at one time I couldn't decide and had 9 bikes here. I hope most of you ride and find great enjoyment in the new Buells. Frankly, there are 3 times as many registered users no Badweb as there will be XB12X's produced this year. Buell just experienced record, within HD, first day sales of a new model and over half the year's production is spoken for. The soonest I can get a bike is November 16th. Action speaks louder than words, spoken or typed on the internet. Congratulations to the folks at Buell. court | ||
| 12r |
FWIW, Bike's report (out today - it's not April 1st is it ?) is complete b****x...a Lightning has less lean angle than a Firebolt and carries less corner speed ? Pah ! And a K5 Gixer thou is 48th ? Duke 999R 43rd ? Ahahahahahah...they couldn't even get the Firebolt details correct. It's the kind of material generated by a typical afternoon's post-pub office debate. | ||
| Psychobueller |
The Lightning does have lower pegs then the Firebolt. Maybe that accounts for the reduced cornering clearance? | ||
| Brucelee |
Nice post Court! | ||
| Snail |
XLCR, you take first prize for the most boring poster on Badweb. Congratulations. The interesting thing to remember here is, some of us go back a long way, we've made solid friendships that transcend bike loyalty. With this level of friendship we can engage in arguments over bikes without worrying too much about consequenses, that's how it's suppose to be, among friends. When I took a Suzuki to Bonneville and joined the Team Elves I was treated like a brother and friend, not an adversary. I hold this precious, beyond the bikes, friendships. | ||
| Choptop |
what would happen if Buell ever produced a world-class superbike, big HP and all? If that happened, I'd buy one. Thats what many have been calling for, myself included. Like Blake said, prolly wont happen. Too bad too. Buells are a slightly niche bike. Although with the new models they are branching out. good on them. Good move for HD too. The Cruiser Craze Will Crest (this has been my battle cry to HD for more than a few years), and HD needs to be ready with other offerings. There are those here, and elsewhere, that have owned Buells and moved on to different types of bikes and different riding styles. Not an inditement of of Buell, just moving on and around in the motorcycling world. I for one am one of those. I would LOVE it if Buell made a bike that fit all of my riding styles, but they dont. Like Aaron once said, Ferrari doesnt make deseil trucks, so he bought a Ford. I guess the same holds true. Buell doesnt make a race bred liqud cooled v-twin superbike... so I bought an Aprilia. | ||
| Choptop |
Ding ding ding... Snail.. we have a winner. debate is a wonderful thing. Otherwise we would all just elbow each other in the ribs, give a sly wink and say... " I agree with you, you agree with me... let go skip around the park holding hands." not that skipping around the park holding hands isnt fun...  | ||
| Eeeeek |
Aye, Court, a victory is a victory. It doesn't mean that a stock XB is now a class champion race bike or that I simply hate Buells. The way I see it, a lot of folks are floating in the clouds and I've got at least one foot on the ground after having been there already. Gives me a perspective. The fact of the matter is I've put up before. I've gone on rides with people who've told me their XB will clean me up in all but the straights and it didn't happen. Blake, You'll have to excuse me if I decline your first invite to a race in Texas. I have an AFM race that weekend that I can't make because of work. Vik | ||
| Benm2 |
First, I apologize for personal critique. I hadn’t meant it as one. Okay, I read the article. My “opinion” remains unchanged. The article is still mostly subjective. 1. The data comparisons are only shown for rider’s fastest. How uniform were the results? Once the riders reached their “comfort zone”, how uniform were the results? How many samples per corner were taken and averaged? What was the standard deviation of the curve at various data points, on corner entry through exit? The data was fastest trace only. From a strictly “scientific” point of view, there is not nearly enough data presented to be useful. Were the traces a 25-pass average for each bike / rider combination, then it would be more scientific. 2. There is no way that a six bike comparison can amount to world domination. Simply not enough contributors. 3. Its clear from both the language and the data that the more powerful bikes were ridden more “point & shoot”, to take advantage of their strengths. The Buell had some of the lower corner entry speeds, and lower corner exits. 4. The Buell wasn’t the fastest in every corner. The aggregate time only. Where do you draw the line on cornering? Had the distance measured been extended only a few meters in any direction and the order of finish would have been much different. 5. There is no record of any setup adjustments. Excluding such basic tricks as raising or lowering forks, or adjusting ride height, a few clicks here & there or adjusting preload can affect cornering. Are we to assume that each bike / rider combination was setup for optimal rider and SINGLE CORNER performance before the data was collected? | ||
| Midknyte |
 Buell could have come in last place and you'd still be arguing that it didn't deserve even that... | ||
| Eeeeek |
"Buell could have come in last place and you'd still be arguing that it didn't deserve even that..." You're right. There are many bikes that handle worse. In no way would Buell deserver last place. Vik |
