| Author |
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Tramp
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 02:32 pm: | 
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WAY too many armchair chuck yeagers here.
until you've ridden it, check your judgements, unless what matters to you, in a bike, are looks and print.... |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 03:55 pm: |
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Carlos, have you ridden a Blast? There is one in my garrage if you want to take it out for a spin. It is definitly a lot nimbler than the Cyclone. And a lot less powerful.
I can't figure out why Buell doesn't beef up their engines. As far as I can tell there was no power increase between the 05 and 06 engines. Yet there are certainly people here who want the power. And Buell in general has been exceptionally good about listening to what people want. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 04:03 pm: |
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maybe it's more cost-effective, from a manufacturing standpoint, to lighten the chassis and change the gearing.
the engine power is not the only way to increase the motorcycle's performance... |
Davegess
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 06:29 pm: |
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I don't think Buell will ever sell large numbers of sport bikes
Don't know that they want to. The adventure touring secment is the fastest growing one in Europe and perhaps in the US. In the US sport bikes are not big sellers any way.
You might want more power but I don't think Buell needs more power to sell a record number of bikes this next year. |
Buells Rule!
(Dyna in disguise)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 06:46 pm: |
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In the US sport bikes are not big sellers any way.
Huh??? |
Tramp
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 10:36 pm: |
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look at the numbers...california alone outsrtips europe in sportbike sales... |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 01:07 am: |
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Are you sure.
Sport bike market in USA is like 25% of total street bike sales.
In Europe I understand it is the opposite. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 01:47 am: |
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Tramp,
I'm not sure where you got your numbers, but they are way wrong. California is not remotely close to outstripping Europe in sales. European sportbike sales are much larger than they are in the US. |
Aydenxb9
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 06:19 am: |
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More like 19% of total street bike sales, but that makes sportbikes the #2 segment of motorcycle sales in this country.
Buells are indeed sport bikes. H.P. alone doesn't determine whether or not it is or isn't. That's like saying Vipers and Vettes are sportscars but Miatas aren't because the Miata doesn't make 400-500 hp.
If you're interested in 150 hp sportbikes, there are several great offerings out there, so go, pick your poison and have fun. Buells are what they are and have to make no apologies for that. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 08:12 am: |
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thanks anon- good eye and my bad- more sportbikes were sold in california ('04) than in any european country, not than in all of europe- I definitely misstated that.
-my dumb |
Bomber
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 09:05 am: |
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I think the enthusiast press can give the impression that sport bikes are the hottest moving category -- makes sense, if you ride for a living, that you'd be drawn to the fastest, highest tech piece available . . . . I see a buncha sport bikes in my neck of the woods, no doubt, but way more cruisers
Rally bikes are showing up more and more as well (like GS beemers and VStroms and the like) -- I think Buell (company and man) had the right idea getting into that segment |
Spike
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 09:52 am: |
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quote:If you're interested in 150 hp sportbikes, there are several great offerings out there, so go, pick your poison and have fun. Buells are what they are and have to make no apologies for that.
Exactly. Aside from possibly the RW750, no Buell I can think of has ever made more horsepower than it's Japanese competition yet Buell has managed to earn a steady growth in sales and popularity over the last 20 years. I don't have the numbers, but I'd bet the biggest growth in Buell sales followed the XB platform which only took us from 91/101hp to 92/103hp. I think it's a safe bet to say that the popularity of the XBs wasn't due to horsepower. I think it's safer to say the the popularity of Buells in general isn't due to horsepower. Apparently, Buell is successfully designing, marketing, and selling something other than peak power. I'll leave the description of that other to the armchair poets (armchair Walt Whitmans?). My point is that it seems quite silly to sit here after all these years and proclaim that Buell needs big horsepower to compete. Apparently Buell has figured out they can get by just fine without big horsepower. |
Light_keeper
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 09:55 am: |
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Maybe it's just me or maybe i'm just showing my age, but I have riden all of the 05 XB's and really liked them. I'm not all that sure I need anymore HP for the type of riding I do. I am not riding to impress anyone but myself and the Buell's do that just fine. |
S1eric
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 10:15 am: |
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Wow, I got some really good answers, And some fun
comments.
I`m not looking for 150hp screamer. Already had one. I just sold my 2000 model R1. Nice bike
really, But I will leave that topic on the R1 boards.
The comments about the EPA might be right on track. I know the buell motors are really efficient in their present state of tune.
And the fact that they can even pass future emission standards is amazing.
But I still think the factory can give us
15 or 20hp out of it. When HD can big bore A
bagger and sell it, I`m left wondering why
buell won`t give us a big bore XB____R.
I think Tilleys is running 1340cc but I could be wrong.
These motor are proving to be extremely reliable.
So I think the bottom end should hold up just
fine. And with the new gear box improvements
things should be able to hold up ok.
I really like the XB platform, And the motor they
use. The new adventure bike will sell like
hot cakes. Even guys on the R1 boards are talking
about them. I ran into some BMW folks on my saturday night ride and they were talking about them.
But I would still like to see A big bore XB1340R
from the factory.
S1Eric |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 10:36 am: |
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Buells are indeed sport bikes. H.P. alone doesn't determine whether or not it is or isn't. That's like saying Vipers and Vettes are sportscars but Miatas aren't because the Miata doesn't make 400-500 hp.
Good point |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 10:37 am: |
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By the way - seen that new Eclipse? WOW!
BAD, BAD, BAD Midknyte! Wrong topic! Baaad Midknyte!  
(Message edited by blake on July 25, 2005) |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
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"WAY too many armchair chuck yeagers here."
I'm a huge Chuck Yeager fan. For years I bought only AC Delco auto parts because he was their spokesman. I'd consider it an honor to be called an armchair Chuck Yeager! |
Spike
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
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quote:By the way - seen that new Eclipse? WOW!
Yeah, as long as that's a "WOW!" as in . . .
"WOW! I didn't know it was possible to make a FWD coupe weigh that much!"
"WOW! ~260hp to the front wheels will create arm-wrenching torque steer!"
"WOW! I didn't know you make anything understeer that much!"
Seriously, the ST weighs 3,538lbs and carries 63% of that weight on it's front wheels. That means the front tires are carrying the weight of an entire Miata. It's essentially a two door Nissan Maxima.
Wrong topic. Bad Spike! Baaad Spike! Wrong topic.
(Message edited by blake on July 25, 2005) |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
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651+cc’s Motorcycle Sales
Source information taken from HD’s website
I'll use 2002 numbers, the latest that is complete worldwide (03 & 04 not yet fully posted on HD’s site)
Hd gives us the percent of market share for each "class". They also give us in a different chart the total # of 651+cc bikes sold in each market so we can calculate how many bikes were registered in each segment, in each market, and thus worldwide.
Keep in mind that these numbers do not include sub 650cc bikes, which will cause the "Performance" segment market shares to be lower than they really are.
FWIW:
| United States | | 474,955 | bikes registered in 2002 | | | | | | Segment Share | Bikes Sold | | | | | Custom | 60.3 | 286,398 | | | | | Touring | 20.2 | 95,941 | | | | | Performance | 17.3 | 82,167 | | | | | Standard | 2.2 | 10,449 | | | | | | 100 | 474,955 | | | | | | | | | | | | Europe | | 331,790 | bikes registered in 2002 | | | | | | Segment Share | Bikes Sold | | | | | Custom | 13.8 | 45,787 | | | | | Touring | 4.8 | 15,926 | | | | | Performance | 61.2 | 203,055 | | | | | Standard | 20.2 | 67,022 | | | | | | 100 | 331,790 | | | | | | | | | | | | Asia/Pacific | | 63,857 | bikes registered in 2002 | | | | | | Segment Share | Bikes Sold | | | | | Custom | 26.2 | 16,731 | | | | | Touring | 8.2 | 5,236 | | | | | Performance | 60.0 | 38,314 | | | | | Standard | 5.7 | 3,640 | | | | | | 100 | 63,857 | | | | | | | | | | | | Worldwide | | 870,602 | bikes registered in 2002 | | | | | | Segment Share | Bikes Sold | | | | | Custom | 40.0 | 348,241 | | | | | Touring | 13.0 | 113,178 | | | | | Performance | 37.0 | 322,123 | | | | | Standard | 9.0 | 78,354 | | | | | | 100 | 870,602 |
So Dave is correct, in the US "Performance" or "Sporbike" sales are "only" 18 percent of the market (in 2002). But that's still over 80 thousand bikes!
Buell produces 10,000 and sends them into a worldwide market of over 800,000 651+cc bike sales, a drop in the bucket at this stage.
(Message edited by josé_quiñones on July 25, 2005) |
Tramp
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
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do the math in regard to the percentage of the US overall #, then do the same with regard to europe, then divide that by the # of EU member countries...
now, find what California's percentage of the US spo't-bike market is.....
don't confuse percentages with overall sums, and don't refer to europe as one country (like i accidentally did a few posts up) |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:57 am: |
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Yeah, as long as that's a "WOW!" as in . . .
Ya got me. I should have said "Beautiful"
I actually could give a rats' rear anymore about sports cars (two too many wheels), but I thought it was purdy. |
Rick_a
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 02:05 pm: |
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The power is in your wallet and/or check book. How much do you need$$ |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 04:06 pm: |
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José,
A motorcycle manufacturer has to start somewhere. Steady consistent growth is the ONLY path towards success in such a business. The pitfalls of too-rapid growth can be extreme; the good folks at Buell experienced that painful lesson beginning in 1999.
I'd be very interested to see the long term model and total production growth over time of Triumph since their rebirth and for KTM, BMW and Ducati and Aprilia too, all for 500cc plus street motorcycles only of course.
When speaking of BMC's market position, I don't put much stock in the above HDI market share reports as they ignore the 600cc class entirely. While the HDI report may be valid for HDMC market share analysis, it certainly is not representative of reality when it comes to the Buell market share analysis. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 04:24 pm: |
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exactly...that's the trouble with stats, they can be interpreted however anyone sees fit |
Bomber
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 05:36 pm: |
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lies, *&^# lies, and statistics! |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 06:09 pm: |
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Honest interpretation of information is not an art. That belongs in the realm of dishonesty, or at best delusion.
Honest statistical analysis requires an accute sense of all pertinent factors, the big picture so-to-speak, and the integrity to present it. The structural analysis of aircraft vehicles, or any safety-critical structure for that matter, involves lots of statistics from the strengths of materials to the accuracy of manufactured part geometry. Few and far between are the analysts who will see fit to put forth their own personal view of the statistics, the honest facts be damned. If structural analysts behaved like our news media, we would all be doomed to travel solely by walking and to living/working in huts. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 06:45 pm: |
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my only problem with THAT post is that I didn't say it First!
Brilliant.com |
Buelluk
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:21 pm: |
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That 60% number fits in well with why Yamaha have split off Star as a new brand, they stated that 60% of their sales were for cruisers. |
Socalbueller
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 07:54 pm: |
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That's like saying Vipers and Vettes are sportscars but Miatas aren't because the Miata doesn't make 400-500 hp.
And everybody knows what kind of reputation Miatas have.  |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
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tramp,
I do not have the State or even Individual Country breakdowns, I'm sure the Motorcycle Industry Council has these stats but they do not make them public.
Blake,
I was not dissing Buell, just stating that they are a small part of the overall motorcycle market at this stage.
I did mention that the HD charts do not include the 600cc sportbikes, so the numbers are in the ballpark but not near home plate.
I do disagree that the HD charts are not applicable to Buell. Other than the Blast, Buell only sells 650cc+ displacement bikes, so they should apply to them also.
The numbers are the best that are publicly available and easily found on the net, and they do show where the market is at in each continent. and it helps to explain why most "new" bike companies build cruisers for the US market, that's where the money is. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 11:42 pm: |
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Didn't think you were meaning to diss Buell JQ.
I don't see as valid any sportbike demographic that omits the 600cc class. |
Jon
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 12:36 am: |
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The talk about needing a "better" engine in the Buell is like talking about needing better heroin. IMO.
Whatever.
(Message edited by Jon on July 26, 2005) |
M2nc
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:09 pm: |
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There are too many examples where HP helped sales. From farm equipment to automobiles, HP sells.
Why is the ZX-10R all the rage now when three years ago the GXR1000R was, because Kawi now makes more power. The Suzuki still handles better, but you have to look at the fine print to know that.
If you are playing to the alternate crowd, you don't have to worry what HP a Ninja or a Gixxers make because they really are not in the same market. That said, you are only helping yourself by being the biggest dog on your porch. With BMW, Moto Guzzi, Triumph, KTM and many others playing to the non-buzzing motorcyclist crowd, you have to keep up. Triumph went to 1050cc 3 cylinders with 128hp. How is an XB12S going to compete against a Speed Triple, short 25hp. Same with KTM, Ducati and BMW, even a lowly Moto Guzzi V11 broke 140mph in a recent test of Alternative bikes. The Buell came in second to the Moto Guzzi in that comparison. If you want to grow, you have to keep up with the market. To quote a manufacturing buzz phrase, 'To stand still is to fall behind.' |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:40 pm: |
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So it would be your contention that Buell is "standing still"? 
How many ZX12R were sold in America last year?
I know of a Buell that went over 200 mph. What's your point?
I do agree though, for the sportbike market, it would definitely help Buell sales if they could find a way to boost the performance up another 20%to 110 RWHP. A small supercharger would do that fairly well no?  And if you do it with the XB9 with the higher revs it would avoid the high torque and accompanying stresses in the drivetrain.
What I wouldn't give to see the stress and durability analyses for the Buell engine and drivetrain. |
Starter
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 06:35 pm: |
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As mentioned I support the fact those stats are severely sideways by portraying the impression H-D is all about. In Australia (which would be part of Asia Pacific) more than 50% of the bikes sold are actually less than 650cc. There aren't alot of Custom models in that bracket so no use reporting that data. Most stats also remove the Honda CT110 (Postie Bike) from the equation as well cause they sell literally more of those than all bikes put together in Aust. |
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