| Author | Message | ||
     Benm2 |
Ah, the anon jab. Since you have the facts (and I don't, as you point out), please tell me the total weight of the stock & race Buell exhausts, versus that of, say, an Akropovic stainless system for a Suzuki GSXR 600. Or, say, a Two Brothers full exhaust for a SV650. I've also noticed that most Buell race exhausts remain well-braced, all-steel affairs. On other roadracing specific exhausts, carbon canisters are more often used. The Buell motor shakes the s**t out of the stock can, so it MUST be built stout. Now, I haven't actually designed or made any Buell exhausts, so presumably you still have real experience to fall back on. I was just proposing that maybe there might be some advantages, especially if you weren't concerned that it was particularly quiet. And, I still wonder about how laying the bike down on the right side affects the header bolts. | ||
| Benm2 |
http://www.akrapovic-exhaust.com/main/catalog/suzuki/gsxr600_2004/rac-evo/SU_GSX 600R_RAC&EVO1&2+.pdf Some facts. Akrapovic exhaust, GSXR 600 (4-1), Stainless steel with carbon SIDE exit, 9.6 lbs. for the whole thing. RC51, Akrapovic, 13.64 lbs., with two mufflers. Still, no ti headers. SV650, Akrapovic, 8.75 lbs. with one muffler. Why is this so cut and dry? "NO advantages"?? I still need to at least loosen my aftermarket muffler to drain the transmission oil, and then I need to wipe all the oil off it when I'm done. A 2 1/2" pipe down there could avoid that. | ||
| Anonymous |
Why would hanging the freaking muffler out cantilevered away from the motor such that it's mass now has multiple times the leverage over the exhaust make the exhaust survive? Guess what, it won't. Yes, I absolutely do know, and the fact of the matter is that mounting it so far away from the center of the vibrating engine mass tremendously increases the loads on it, which means, if it were made to last, it would get heavier. Oh, but the Suzuki SV motor doesn't shake, you say. Right, and if our motor didn't shake we would have lighter mufflers. But our stock system still weighs less than a stock Suzuki system, and our real full race titanium systems weigh very little. No, you can't buy the full race systems yet, but one day you will be able to. Why don't the aftermarket companies make durable light exhausts for our bikes? Because it takes a lot of engineering. If you don't do it right, it will break. And hanging the can out on the side will definitely not make it last. And it screws up the handling. | ||
| Blake |
The carbon fiber Borla on my beastly '97 Cyclone is doing very well and is very light weight Ben. No way any IL4 or even twin side mounted exhaust system weighs less than it does. | ||
| Ingemar |
Not to mention the few feet of extra plumbing you need to mount it on the side... | ||
| Court |
The photo on the Sportster above, based on 8th grade physics, is pretty much a cumulative illustration of every "not to do" in the world of motorcycle (airplane, sailboats or Segue) design. The added wight of the pipe, to get from the engine to the muffler, likely outweighs the Buell system. Any, here's the MOMENT you've been wading for, take the weight at each inch from the center of that ol' sporty and do the: (*Motorcycle Designers Headache Equivalency) typically restricted to crap the feds require you put on the bike math and you'll soon be watching for the designer of that system on Comedy Central. Like a 9 cup bra for a bovine.....it makes no cents. Court | ||
| Benm2 |
I never said the SV motor doesn't shake, you did.  I was guessing that maybe if an exhaust "joint" was put near the isolators on the back of the motor, then the vibration could be reduced. Plus, really I was visualizing just the entrance "end" of the muffler being mounted there (very short race system). Again, though, the primary goal was to get the pipes tucked in, with a secondary benefit of easier left-side maintenance (primary shoe adjustment, transmission oil). For a track bike, I think that "crash durability" also has some importance. If a crash on the right side wipes a header bolt, your done. At best, it is a 1-2 hour repair IF you've got a spare stud AND you can get the old one out trackside. 'Course, the next thing to hit might be the cam cover... The MotoGP bikes run systems that vary from Buell-like (one pipe of the Honda V-5, which is what I was visuallizing for the Buell), and most un-Buell-like (Ducati). Presumably these engineers also know a thing or two about both exhuast placement & bike handling, so again, not so black & white to me.
Wow, I don't recall actually seeing an "Anon" admit that the motors vibration contributes to weight. 
Let me know when. I'll need to start planning my purchase... Blake, my Supertrapp (stainless steel) could be readily used as a war implement on the end of a long stick. "Light" is NOT one of its primary characteristics, but its still less than a TUBER stock muffler. Good to hear your Borla's held up okay, but others (V&H?) haven't had the same luck. Court, I always did suspect that the stock muffler (on my M2) was there because to meet the Fed requirements AND be a good exhaust, it had to be huge. | ||
| Court |
>>>Let me know when. I'll need to start planning my purchase... Start saving...you haven't long to wait and will be plesantly surprised. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
As much complaining as everyone is doing, I give Kevin a big round of applause for providing the customer EXACTLY what he asked for. To fault Kevin for it is wrong. Fault the person who asked for it in the first place, or better yet, don't throw stones at all. What is "wrong" or "ugly" in your eyes is not either in someone elses eyes. | ||
| Slaughter |
Anonymous, You are missing the point with those upswept, side-mounted, long-armed exhausts: Mass De-Centralization! As an engineer, I appreciate the "design feature" where you move all the heavy stuff as far out away from the center of mass as possible. This in effect counters the annoying tendency of the Buell (especially the XB series) to respond to rider input. I can imagine that the mass-decentralization would be appreciated by riders who want their machines to have good straight-line performance and don't want to be bothered by those annoying turns. As an added bonus, having that can cantilevered up and back so far will enhance wheelie performance with the rearward location of the can - you probably have another 10-12 ft*lb adding to the "wheelie moment" Now if they'd add maybe 10 pounds of bar-end weights, you'd really be onto something. I have named this Mass Decentralization approach the "DUMass System" - Decentralized Unsprung Mass System. Because I am a Buell racer, I'll let Buell use my (not quite) trademarked "DUMass System" designator at no charge. (You're welcome) | ||
| Light_keeper |
I'm not an engineer nor have I ever studied any of it. I'm just an old Bosnsmate who has spent time moving heavy weights around on the deck of a Buoy tender. Having seen the principle of mass centeralization in action ie; when you move weight around on the deck of a ship and place it outside of the righting moment. You change the righting moment (center of balance). We were taught to keep weight as low as possible to keep the riding moment as close to the center as possible. Ships tend to tip over if you exceed the righting moment to quickly or by too much. It would seem to me and quite possibly i am very wrong being only an old bosn deck ape type. that if you hang weight above and outboard of the center (righting moment) wether behind or to the side you introduce unfaverable handling charactoristics. Even if the exaust systems are slightly heaver, if placed below the righting moment you only drive the center down lower vs behind and up. Now I'm still very new at this but I think I now get the idea. If I am wrong please show me the light. | ||
| Benm2 |
Well, you need to check with Ducati, Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, Moto-Guzzi, MV, BMW, and others to make sure that they would not take issue with trademarking a "feature" that they all use. In addition, this information must be shared as soon as possible with Sete Giberneau. Clearly, the RCV's exhaust needs to be relocated to under the engine. Then, he'll be able to cleanly beat Rossi, who's bike already has an under engine exhaust. Oh, wait, no! The M1 has that nasty heavy muffler mounted on the side too! No wonder only a select few individuals can ride those GP machines! Gods they must be! | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
They run actual mufflers and not just open megs on MotoGP bikes???? | ||
| Slaughter |
Moto GP rarely have mufflers (Message edited by slaughter on June 27, 2005) | ||
| Slaughter |
   (Message edited by slaughter on June 27, 2005) | ||
| 12r |
The M1 has a Termignoni muffler due to Rossi's preference for 'running silent'. The others don't have mufflers and are still within the noise regs LOL. The RCV sounds like a bear with it b**ls in a vice and the Duke sounds like a chainsaw down a well. | ||
| Benm2 |
Well, they are "muffler like". I didn't think the Buell race bikes mufflers had much more packing than those! C'mon, you can hear the Buell race bikes EVERYWHERE at the tracks. The Suzuki race pipe in the picture is probably closest to what I was trying to describe. | ||
| Benm2 |
I wasn't really looking at it from a streetbike perspective at all. Maybe I should have been clearer about that. | ||
| Kds1 |
Just to let you know, the muffler that you see only weighs 3.5lbs and the midpipe is 4lbs, so it's not heavy at all.....It does't matter to me what you want on your bike if it makes you happy... Kevin www.kdfab.com | ||
| Jackbequick |
My stock 2000 M2 muffler has about 2400 miles on it, I've never heard it with some one else riding it. My impression is that it is pretty quiet even when accelerating hard. I'm not looking for more power and am happy with the muffler as it is. I don't see any consumables like baffles in the parts book and was wondering, do they tend to get much louder with time? Jack | ||
| Ebear |
Maybe cause It's still early and I haven't woke up yet but HOW the HELL do you mount a muffler on the passenger footpeg and the OTHER end is attached to a LARGE VIBRATION motor and then expect the muffler or the attachment points to not fail VERY QUICKLY????Even a spring connection isnt going to SEAL for very long when the motor end is pounding it senseless!!!....Am I missing something?????  | ||
| Slaughter |
By the way, my racebike is clearly the LOUDEST racebike at Willow Springs - out of maybe 150+ racebikes. Fortunately, we don't have noise restrictions. As it is, I get many comments on the loud sound from Dave, the announcer during the races - "That's either Slaughter coming outta 9 down the front straight or we're getting buzzed by a P-51." | ||
| Reepicheep |
Very cool! | ||
| Cruisin |
quote: >>>Let me know when. I'll need to start planning my purchase... Start saving...you haven't long to wait and will be plesantly surprised. Dammit Court. You tease us with info and then make us wait! | ||
| Slaughter |
Ebear is correct-a-mundo. If you had an old sporty - rigid mounted motor, you MIGHT get away with a pipe run up the a** of the bike like the pics showed - or you'd have to rubber-mount the pipe too - along with the spring connections. (ever look at how much the rubber-mounted motor moves relative to the chassis?) You know - all the above is not to take away from workmanship or any desires on the part of the particular rider wanting something (like Monty Python's "and now for something completely different" ) - I mean, how many folks have put carbon fiber in places where it makes not sense at all (you know - those "high performance" buckle guards on the tanks - those skeletonized heel guards, the list goes on and on) | ||
| Court |
>>>>the RCV's exhaust needs to be relocated to under the engine No, it can't. Honda has "raised it up the flag pole" on a concept bike. The patent belongs to Erik Buell. I am certain that the mufflers we see from Honda, Suzki, et al... are dandy. That does not mean they could not be better. Court | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
The only one I see using actual numbers is Ben...everyone else is simply parroting phrases. Any actual weights for an entire tuber setup? How about for an XB? I can go out to my garage & weigh the stock header & muffler for my X1...just need to find that darn scale. Several manufacturers are now making entire exhaust systems out of TI...I know the R1 has it & the mufflers are so incredibly light its unreal. No I do not know what they weigh either but I suppose its easy enough to find out. OK..back to your argument boys. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Stock XB12 canister(with valve)=17lbs Stock XB12 header(with O2 and clamp)=5lbs Vance and Hines SS2R(with mounts and elbow, S3 model)=7lbs At one time I believe the shipping weight for the Becin race style exhaust was listed as 7lbs, that is header and pipe assembly, but I could be off a little. | ||
| M1combat |
Seven pounds... That sounds pretty close to what my Force weighs. Maybe nine pounds with the mounting brackets. Just for the record... | ||
| Court |
>>>>making entire exhaust systems out of TI They *HAVE* to given the less than optimal location on the motorcycle. They, in effect, have designed a good band-aid to cover a design flaw. Just my opinion.... |
