| Author |
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Paulson
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 09:13 am: | 
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I am disappointed at the very few bike offerings in the lower cc range. Potential new riders must choose one out of a handful of 'learner' bikes, or they end up with a bike they're not ready for. IMO, that coupled with the limited number of MSF courses available in many areas, is why so many new riders die. Riding is now cool. But if you don't have a BIG bike, you're not cool right? |
Gowindward
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 09:36 am: |
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Go to the source 
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/PPT/MotorcycleFatal.pdf |
Light_keeper
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 09:37 am: |
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I think my Blast is cool. It has been good to me for the last two years. It will keep up in most cases for normal riding. It is fun in the corners and has been a great reintroduction back into riding. HAving done the demo rides (Buell/HD), if and when I can afford to move up I will do so with very little adjustment. I can honestly say that when I started my first impulse was to do the blast for a couple of months then get something much bigger. Now I'm not convinced. I have ridden the XB's and love them. especially the Cityx. not so much the firebolts however just feel uncomfortable with the riding position, but thats my opinion. The problem lies in the stigma we have put on a "little" bike. Even at the last Buell demo when one guy went to ride the Blast the girl behind the table asked him if he was trying to test his man hood with such a big bike. LAter he told me that he did like it and was new to riding. He had just completed an MSF course and was trying to deside what to buy. Hopefully he will not exceed his competence level to become a statistic. Any way I would not change the way I have come back to riding. |
Blublak
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 12:03 pm: |
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You know.. Back 20 some years ago, when I first swung a leg over. It wasn't a sign of 'un-coolness' or being a wimp or whatever it is now to start with a smaller bike. My first was a 250cc Honda.. Followed later that year by a 305cc Yamaha (if I remember right - I traded my 250cc bike to another guy, straight up.. go figure?). As it was, it took a couple of years and a 500cc Kawi before I moved up to, what was then, the big monster 850cc Suzuki. For me, and a lot of us I'll bet, it was a learning curve. There was no shame in riding something smaller (unless you happened into the 'Biker' crowd.. and if you said you were learning, they all understood and had no problems with you).
When my wife decided in 2001 to start riding her own she was inundated by people telling her to buy a 1000cc (or bigger) machine. WTF?! Being only her husband and having more experience I was barley heard in my recommendations. I said "Rebel" she said "V-Star" .. I countered with "Blast".. She ended up taking the MSF class then immediately buying a 600cc Shadow (a compromise I think).. in the first year, I think she dropped it 4 times. The first being the worst.. She didn't pay the needed attention and ran out of road in a parking lot and ended up laying it down. Later she went to a Volousia 800. And had more success and a few minor oops's.. I was still trying to get her on a Blast, but with people around telling her to go bigger, she was still looking at Low Riders and the like. Finally.. With the help of Brian (BuckinFubba) at Tilleys, I got her to ride a Blast. A bike that was sized so she could handle it. With power to be fun, but not insane..
She now has a Sportster 1200C - and likes it. She declared it the last cruiser she will ever buy. Her favorite 'Fun' machine, is still the Blast! If Buell had a more powerful bike that would fit her, I know she would buy it. She doesn't see it as a 'beginner' bike, but as a 'Sport Bike'. Over time, she's gotten much better at riding.. But she needed that time on the smaller machines.
I guess the point of all this is.. Why is it that everyone seems to think that they need the biggest, baddest machine on the planet, when they have no idea how to control such a beast? I really do think there should at least be some sort of guide to selling bikes..
Remember when H-D offered to buy back your Sporty after one year for original sale price if you moved up? That was a great incentive I thought, although not really the bike to do it with..
It would be nice if everyone had that sort of program today. Start out on a smaller bike. In a year, after you've had some time to learn how to ride, come back, we'll help you move up.. if you want too..
Oh well.. Wishful thinking..
Ok, I'll stop rambling now.. |
Mfell2112
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 12:55 pm: |
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Here is a link to the article on MSNBC.com
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7806233/
"Dean Campa turned Los Angeles streets into a speedway on his sport bike. He was caught and jailed for two years."
This Campa guy does two years and this guy driving the Ford is FREE with no jail time:
http://www.ejbdotcom.net/content/661.html
Of course he was fined $30,000. At least the Police got their money as they always do. This guy was talking on his cellphone. One of his excuses was is that they were taking up all of the road, so he decided to take it upon himself to clear a path. He was succesful although a man at 33 years of age and a single father was killed.
Regards
Mike |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 01:13 pm: |
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Aack. Everyone should watch that second video, and have it firmly planted in their mind if they ever feel the need to get in a pissing contest with a car over *anything*.
If a car around you is being a jerk... get clear and get their plate number and get on with your life.
Scary stuff to see those bikes and riders go flying. |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 01:34 pm: |
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A hypotheses: the change in the trendline in motorcycle fatalities comes from two or three causes. They are:
1) An increase in the number of new riders or inexperienced riders from increasing motorcycle sales. Note the trough in the fatality rate per 100 million vehicle miles on motorcycles occurred in 1994 to 1998. The street bike market has boomed since then. Many of these purchases are by new riders over 40 and they're either beginning (or returning to riding) on large, heavy motorcycles.
2) A decline in effective helmet usage as state laws requiring helmets have been rescinded, and as non-functional beanie style helmets have become popular with the Harley crowd in places such as California where helmets are still required. I've had cases where someone had a serious brain injury or died after falling down and striking their head only the road surface, exactly the kind of blow a DOT or Snell helmet will handle easily. But they were wearing a non-approved half-hat with no energy absorbing material whatsoever. Texas and Florida effectively eliminated their helmet laws in 1997 and 2000, respectively, and they have large enough motorcycling populations to effect national statistics.
3) Some increase in single-vehicle accident fatalities from trends such as higher performance on all sportbikes, particularly in the smaller displacements, the most likely to be bought by young riders. This is likely to be a social issue more than a machine issue, as activities such as stunting and group rides on racer roads can bring out the stupidest rider behavior.
Motorcycle fatality rates are going to be an increasing hot spot, as car/SUV fatality rates per 100 MVM have been dropping considerably, as both classes of vehicles are getting a lot safer for their occupants, no matter what you hear on 60 Minutes or 20/20. I can think of only a couple of things likely to have a really significant effect on motorcycle fatality rates when corrected for miles traveled:
1) Better brakes for the inexperienced and the average rider, which means linked and/or antilock.
2) More helmet use, which requires either a very, very serious education program or a reversal in recent legislative trends. |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 02:08 pm: |
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Just looking at the raw numbers as noted in the above linked .pdf file, http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/PPT/MotorcycleFatal.pdf
Motorcyclists killed by age group:
age group: 2001: 2002
Under 20: 211: 172
20-29: 925: 857
30-39: 798: 776
40-49: 729: 764
50+: 532: 672
Unknown: 2: 3
Total: 3197: 3244
The 20-29 age group has the largest number of reported deaths for 2001 and 2002 according to this document.
For 2002 60% of 3,244 is 1,946.4
40+ riders total 1,436.
1,436 is 44% of the 2002 totals.
I think someone has they garters on too tight in the news industry.
Also if you go down the page a bit you'll see where they break down the data into engine sizes. In every year the highest fatality rate occurs with 501-1000cc engine size.
So if you want to live your life according to the document then you should only ride if you are under 20 or over 50 years old and should only ride motorcycles that are under 500cc or over 1000cc.
I think I'm not going to worry about the chit that the sensationalist news agencies report and just ride my bike.
I do like the picture at the end of the document showing the 3 Stooges and a broken down jalopy.
Have a nice day, it's raining here, but have a nice one any way and don't sweat the small stuff. |
Scitz
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 02:13 pm: |
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damn, that second video was scary. What was that guys problem? One rider looked as though he went 20ft. straight up in the air. If I would have been around and not got hit I would go straight over to that guys car and beat the crap out him. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 03:35 pm: |
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Steve_a.... Excellent. I would add one more possible death rate reduction tool, increased availability / emphasis on the MSF material.
Ohio has subsidised MSF courses, and now allows them to be a replacement for the riding test, a great step. There is still a HUGE waiting list for them though, as well as for the advanced course. I know a number of riders who could use the advanced course, and want to take it, but are not willing to plan 8 months ahead of time to try and get in one.
If the basic course was mandatory to get past the permit, and the advanced was more or less a walk in affair, that would (IMHO) go a long way. |
Bkw_bmw
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 06:55 pm: |
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I think the answer is simpler than trying to factor in increases in motorcycle sales vs. miles driven, vs. increases in horsepower.
Look at the charts and notice how the rider's mean age and corresponding fatalities increase each year from 1990 to 2002.
It simply means that the same generation (mine  ) is still doing stupid things, some of us are just getting away with it longer.
(Message edited by bkw_bmw on May 11, 2005) |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 09:13 pm: |
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I would add one more possible death rate reduction tool, increased availability / emphasis on the MSF material.
That could only be a good thing. I love the MSF stuff.
Here is another suggestion, where you can actually make a difference as an individual. Promote things like Battletrax. It gives people a chance to be competitive by becomming better riders rather than just by going fast. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 09:16 pm: |
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I would never, ever, advise an 40 + person, without extended two wheel experience, to start motorbiking.
Are you saying that people over 40 shouldn't learn to ride? |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 09:29 pm: |
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Most 40+ old new bikers (mostly male) think they are too proud for a MSF course.
When I was 37 I decided I wanted to learn to ride. So the first thing I did was take the MSF class. I discovered that riding is a lot more complex than I imagined. I'm really amazed that anyone can figure out how to ride with out taking some sort of training. Apparently people do it though. Do they just crash a lot learning what not to do?
I'm curious, how many people here learned to ride from the MSF class and how many people taught themselves? Did anyone teach themself on a street bike, or does everyone start out on the dirt? And (if you'll pardon my survey) if anyone took the MSF class after having learned to ride some other way, did you think the class was worthwhile? |
Iamike
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:05 pm: |
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When my son was taking his MSF class 5 years ago I decided to take it with him. I had been riding for over 25 years at that time with both on & off road experience.
Since I have always been a student of safe riding I didn't learn a whole lot more in the class but felt it was worth the time. I also think that being a long time rider in the class showed the young kids there that safety is important.
The only problem I had was with the Honda Nighthawk 250s and the panic stop test. The only way I could get those drum brakes to stop in the 25 feet was to pull the front brake lever all the way to the grip. I kept telling the instructor (since it took me about 3 times) that if I ever did that on my Buell, that I'd be laying on the ground with the bike on top of me.
The two instructors did keep telling me that I was having too much fun! |
Doughnut
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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When I took the MSF class last,( I took it twice, ) the only person not to pass was a 50 some year old man who has been riding for 30ish years and rode his bike to all the classes |
Swampy
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:13 pm: |
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MSF was a great experience. I can't wait for the Little Kid to come of age so I can go through it with him. Just do what the instructor tells you, and get used to the right way of doing things, they teach those things for a reason. I met a guy last summer that rode his brand new big dollar chopper into a guard rail....at night because as he said "it wouldn't turn"...it was apparent he didn't know how to make it turn and followed the headlight into the guard rail. He was lucky he only had two casts on. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 08:24 am: |
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the only person not to pass was a 50 some year old man who has been riding for 30ish years
Was that because he couldn't ride or because he wouldn't listen to the instructors? |
Rek
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 08:25 am: |
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meanwhile back at the thread...did anyone actually see the news clip? Or is it just an article?
Rob |
Along4theride
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 10:14 am: |
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I saw the actual news story on NBC. |
Mutt2jeff
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 01:26 pm: |
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My father went with me when it was time for me to take the class, and we will attend with my little brother when it is time for him to take the class. As I had years of dirtbike experience and quite a bit of time solo on a road bike (I was taught to ride on a full dress goldwing) the class wasn't difficult at all, but even with all my experience I still learned a thing or two and came away a better rider. Some people just need to swallow their pride and realize that they dont know everything. |
Iamike
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 08:06 pm: |
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That's my guess why the 50+ year old didn't pass. He probably went in thinking that he already knew everything.
I went in with the attitude that I wanted to learn and to have fun. I accomplished both. |
Captainkirk
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:38 pm: |
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I've been riding since 9 years old. Rode dirt until my 20's and then street a couple years on a CL350. Hung it up for the most part for 15 years, then moved up to a 550 IL4 and began riding in earnest. Two years later, fell in love with the Buell and the rest is history.
I am signed up to take the MSF BRC in August with my youngest boy, who does not(yet)ride (age 17). I want him to learn the RIGHT way...with me beside him to mentor and encourage. Learning in the dirt can be painful.Learning on the street can be deadly. No, I'm not too "proud" to do the BRC with a bunch of "newbies" after thirty-something years in the saddle. I just might learn something! . Learning, being in touch with the machine...that's what it's all about.
I'll let you all know how it turns out. |
2000m2
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 06:27 pm: |
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I don't think engine size is the issue...my first street bike is my 84" M2. I bought it used that way and simply rode sensibly. I even took the MSF course on my M2 (the military won't let you ride unless you take the course, so they offer it for free if you ride your bike).
My fathers first bike is an HD CVO 1550cc pig.
Education is the key to keeping people safe. |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 08:36 pm: |
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Maybe we should give all teenagers the option to have a Corvette or Dodge Viper as a first vehicle. When you give a kid a 1000cc bike that will do 190+ mph that is what you are doing.
In my perfect world...
1. Drivers minimum age would be 18
2. Motorcycle license would be stepped by power: 599cc or less for the first two years.
3. Loud exhausts (95db+) would be illegal with a loose your license policy.
1st - 1 month + 2 points
2nd - 3 months + 4 points
3rd - 6 months + 6 points
4. Pizza and beer would be fat free and considered healthy.... |
Citycrosser
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 09:00 pm: |
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I started on a clapped out Honda CL450 and it was probably too much power for my 16 year old brain. After have a suzuki GT250 two stroke, then a Seca 550, then a Ninja 500, I still feel surprised by my City cross and its acceleration. I too would like to see a resurgence of small displacement bikes.
One other comment in regards to the video of the car slamming into the bikers. I was traveling up a three lane highway with my family when six sport bikers zoomed in front of traffic and then promply slowed down to 55 mph, while taking up all three lanes. I followed them for a while as they did wheelies and grinned at each other. I then decided I had had enough. I slowly (and I mean slowly) worked my way in between a few of them and made a lane. They gave me no trouble, but to this day, I have no idea why they were being such a#@ holes. |
Spike
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 09:51 am: |
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While we're daydreaming about the US ever implementing a pro-active graduated license program, I think it's important that we not get caught up on displacement. A 600cc ~50hp Yamaha Seca II should not be in the same category as a 600cc ~105hp Yamaha R6, much the same as a ~65hp 750cc Honda Nighthawk should not be in the same category as the ~125hp GSX-R750.
It's all too common that I hear the phrase "you should start with a small bike" followed by "like a 600."
Mike L.
'04 XB12R (low side stud) |
Koz5150
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
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Well I tried to say 599 and less. I know, you can kill yourself on anything. I do feel though that you have a much better chance on a lighter, smaller engined bike then a 60 hp full dresser. |
Buelluk
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 11:06 am: |
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Spike,
I don't know the exact numbers ,but in the UK, the early limitations on bikes are based on horsepower not capacity, I think they are around 34-35 hp. |
Tkelly5
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 02:15 pm: |
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Warning!!! Make sure you are NOT eating. Do not look at this link unless you have a high tolerance for very graphic stuff.... must have MS Powerpoint installed. Made me think twice on the ride home yesterday. Ride Safe.
http://www.sportbikes.net/movies/Moto.pps |
Dsergison
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 03:20 pm: |
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what decible level are the wileyco pipes?
and I learned in the dirt. I took the MSF just for fun with my wife and a freind from work.
she had learned in the dirt too. buddy had never ridden.
totally remedial for us dirt riders. our instructors kept saying how dirt riders never use their brakes correctly. PLEASE! Whatever! it's no different except the ground is less predictable off road. so you learn to deal with more.
glad I was a dirt biker before I went off turn 6a at blackhawk at 90mph. pucker factor would sure have been higher.
only thing different is rarely do dirt riders have cars turn left in fron of them. but if they do they may well have a better reaction. |
Daves
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 03:28 pm: |
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off topic,
Thanks for the referral Dan!
Have you seen Brandon's new bike yet?
Back on topic |
Jugallo94
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
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All this talk about educating young people on riding safe, then I see this last night on my way home. Sorry this is a rant, it just ticks me off. I was stuck in traffic, four lanes, two each way. I was in the left lane, and hear this high piched engine whinning getting closer and closer. Couldnt figure out where it was coming from being as I was in left lane and the lane next to me was oncoming traffic. I look out my opened window, and to my amazement, here comes some fool in oncoming traffic lanes, riding a wheelie. I saw him pull into a gas station about a 100 yards from where I was sitting, so I decided to follow him in there to tell him he is a jack*** and gives safe riders a bad name. To my suprise the guy is in his fifties and just shrugs it off and takes off into oncoming lanes, again riding wheelie. God where is a cop when you want one. |
Sandblast
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:58 pm: |
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I was thinking the same thing about those Wileyco pipes |
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