| Author | Message | ||
     Purpony |
Ive been talking with a local harley/buell engine builder/tuner/racer about dyno tuning my bike this season and have been also talking about upgrades... this was his comment when i mentioned a 1250 kit- -------------------------------------- I would not recommend a 1250kit that bore size is not stable at running temps (cylinders go out of round with temp and pressure) I would stay at 1200 and do the heads and cams. Here is a XR1200 we did with just heads and 10.8:1 pistons (which have a low tension ring set, to reduce friction and heat). We would have to install as set of 551 SE cams in your bike (which is possible) and do up your heads and a set of forged cp piston. just wondering if anyone else has heard of this problem? | ||
| Jefc73 |
Havent heard that but could be possible. What kind of numbers were they getting out of the XR1200 set up? The head porting, higher compression pistons and good set of cams would definitely make a big difference. | ||
| Jolly |
I think it also depends on how the motor is used once it's built. drag rcing and running high hard RPM hits and shifts, or are you only running the motor on the "about 60-70%" capability for street riding and canyon carving. Building a motor for torque and not bouncing the rev limiter will have different effects and life expectancy on the motor then building it for max performance and then running the hell out of it.... its all in the definition of "running temps" as described above... think of it this way... you want to run safely at 6500 RPM and have the motor still pulling, you don't build a 6500 RPM motor that maxes out... you over build the motor so that it will handle where you plan to use it, that extra build is your safety margin... I think materials are important in the equation as well...cylinder walls? pistons? tolerances? I have a lot of the same questions and concerns as I get ready to build my 96 S1 for a frame off...hmmm, rabbit hole...keep the motor stock or do the NRHS kit...is the kit offered by NRHS a solid kit, are the iron lined cylinders the right cylinders for the bike? I think I'm more concerned with material than bore size for the little increase in bore I would be considering.... that being said, some bore and stroke combinations don't work well... so a lot of rambling and yet, so little help.... NOTE: all of this with the caveat that I am not an expert... just another hobbyist!! | ||
| Kalali |
I can't help with he question but I think the XR1200 motors are simply awesome right out of the box and in my opinion they are the best iteration of the so called HD Evo Sportster motors. I'm guessing they probably respond well to incremental tuning if put in expert hands. Should have bought that orange one while the wifey was on a business trip.... Loved that bike. | ||
| General_ulysses |
I considered getting an XR1200 too, very pretty bike. But I also think the S1's are really cool looking too and are somewhat comparable to the XR in style/intent. Except...the S1W develops 11 more hp, weighs over a 100lbs less, brakes harder and handles better than the XR. Plus it can usually be found for considerably less money in comparable condition. Considering all that? I went with the S1. | ||
| S1owner |
Cant speak on everything yet but I just installed a Nhrs 1250 kit and the quality and fitment are exceptional along with the customer service. | ||
| Jefc73 |
When I do pick up an S2 I will be putting the 1250 kit in I believe. Along with ported and polished heads and a good set of cams. Want the extra power in case of having a passenger. But also will not be trashing the hell out of the motor either. My S1W has ported and polished heads, N9 cams and a dyna tek ignition. It runs really strong. I don't believe it has a 1250 kit in it though. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
I thought the big deal with the 1250 kit was that they did away with the cast iron sleeves and used nikasil coating in there instead. It was supposed to run cooler. Perhaps my info is just plain wrong. It was told to me by a mechanic-tunder some years ago. | ||
| Buellistic |
Just think about a 100 cubic inch engine !!! | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
What a lot of tosh! Why would a 1250 kit run significantly hotter than an engine with a few thou less fatter piston / wider bore? The only thing wrong with a 1250 kit is I personally don't see the point in paying out for what can be a 1400 kit! Rocket in England | ||
| Blake |
Splitting the cases is unnecessary with the 1250. Sounds dubious to me. Just stick with the all aluminum cylinders. No worries. | ||
| S1owner |
Go straight to Dan Dunn at NHRS and ask him he is a member here also. Thats ghe best way to awnser your questions. | ||
| Trojan |
The early 1250 kits did have problems with aluminium nikasil cylinders going 'out of round', causing the bores to scuff up quite badly in a short time. To be honest I doubt the power claims made by the manufacturers of the 1250 kits (I have actually used two of these with very little sucess in terms of power or reliability). The later Axtell kits use steel liners I believe (like stock cylinders) so don't suffer the same. For cost vs power/reliability I really don't think they are worth doing. We got more power from our XB race bike using Wiseco 12.5:1 high compression pistons (cylinders bored to maximum overbore so 1213cc), roller rockers, stock cams and stock heads flowed by Hal's. That was more powerful and much more reliable (and cheaper!) than either of the 1250 kits we tried. I would doubt that your mech got good power from 10.8:1 pistons alone, and the cams in the Buells are hotter than stock H-D cams anyway so not really worth changing unless you are going for a full race cam. I always trusted Hal's H-D when I wanted advice on tuning these engines, and they have probably won more races with their air cooled Buells than most over the years  | ||
| Phelan |
1250 kit in same-to-same comparison (same compression ratio, no other changes) generally makes about 2% more power. It's useful if you have a scored cylinder or an 883 and don't have to crack open the cases, or if you don't mind a $300-400 premium when changing to high comp pistons, but otherwise isn't really worth the investment IMO. But it is bolt-on and go, which is nice. When I put $$$ into a motor build, it will be an 88 or 90"er  . As far as reliability, the 1250 kits out there now really aren't the 1250 kits that were out there 10 years ago. They've been mildly refined in all the right ways and, all other things equal, are really a non-issue as far as reliability. (Message edited by phelan on April 17, 2014) | ||
| Buellistic |
IMHO the 1250 KITS are a excellent PRODUCT IMPROVEMENT for 883's !!! | ||
| Phat_j |
the dealer will tell you to stay away from the 1250 kit because they don't sell them.... that is all. | ||
| Kc_zombie |
NHRS will set you up with the right combination for abut $1800.00. That includes, cams, porting/valves/springs for your head, new pistons and jugs. They will even gap the rings and send them already in the jugs. All it takes is a phone call, even if you only have questions. Dan always seems willing to help and never goes for the hard sell. (Message edited by kc zombie on April 17, 2014) | ||
| Jefc73 |
Yep I believe that's the way Iam going to go Vince when I pick up an S2. the whole package right from them. | ||
| Phelan |
I agree. Dan is a class act and has always taken care of me over the years. Hopefully I can win the lotto and keep him busy building that dream motor I've always wanted  . S&S cases, 90" Delphi EFI, 130+ HP... | ||
| Jolly |
I have bought several products from NRHS and Dan has always been great to deal with! It's nice to find people like him in today's market! I've bought a few sets of collapsible push rod tube assemblies from him and had two or three cam covers cut down, he does great work and is just great shop to deal with! | ||
| Buellsrule |
In two words Cycle Rama. Hands down the best. You don't need a 1250. A comparable 1250 build will make about 5hp/5 trq more than a 1200. Head work, cams will make plenty of power. Here's some dyno charts for you: http://www.cycle-rama.com/buell_dyno_charts.htm NRHS nearly ruined a set of heads when Dan Norlin worked there. He now runs the shop for Hammer performance. Dan Dunn at NHRS is a good guy but is not an engine builder/tuner. He's just a gear head like many of us here on the Badweb. Go with Cycle Rama or one of the other reputable shops that does performance work on the 1200's. If you're going to buy pistons and cylinders, buy an 88 kit and have the cases bored. That really wakes one up. BR | ||
| Jayvee |
Hey BR, sorry man way more than two words, even near the cusp of being insulting, not needed to make your point, unless your point is to insult. (Might be something in Corinthians about that.) | ||
| Flatheadbill |
I installed a 1250 kit from NRHS 2 years ago. 536 SE cams at the same time. No abnormal heat or running issues other than my rear tire doesn't seem to last like it should. Do what you can afford and have fun. | ||
| Blake |
>>> I always trusted Hal's H-D when I wanted advice on tuning these engines, and they have probably won more races with their air cooled Buells than most over the years. They ran the Millennium Nicasil plated cylinders, with a LOT of success. Axtel also recommended their all aluminum cylinders for performance Buells due to their much superior cooling efficiency. Not sure if they still offer them. I don't like to see badmouthing of anyone or their business here. Stop it. | ||
| Buellistic |
The last time "i" was in Hal's H-D they had a BIG CUBIC INCH SPORTSTER engine sitting on an engine stand ... | ||
| Wesbuell |
Hahaha, stop it Buellistic, I'm broke, nonetheless...... | ||
| Kalali |
For the folks in New Jersey, I've heard a lot of good things about Liberty Harley/Buell. They apparently have a good dyno room and experience in tuning Buells. I am going to take my X1 to get tuned this summer. | ||
| Purpony |
Dan emailed me back from NRHS and he is recommending their 1250 kit with their stage 2 light porting and keeping the stock cams. The place i originally talked to and plan on having tune my bike shortly for this summer is http://www.johnsonenginetechnology.com/ im basically looking for all torque. I barely ride highways and try to avoid them. I ride all back windy/hilly roads | ||
| Buellsrule |
Hey JV, I hate to see someone waste money. I've built more than a couple of engines and been riding tubers since '99. Been around the block a couple of times. He asked, I answered. Next... P.S. yellow bikes look gay. (Message edited by Buellsrule on April 23, 2014) | ||
| Phelan |
One really nice thing about a 1250 kit is that it saves time when doing a conversion as opposed to having your stock cyls bored and honed, with giving you that 5% edge at the same time. And if you wanna change jug colors in the process, just pick the one you want! If I get chance to do motor work, I'd like to have my heads powder coated RED. Mark, as far as torque goes, my personal opinion is to build for horsepower and gear for torque. You'll have much bigger grin on your face if you just get used to keeping the RPMs up just a little higher IMO. I took off at a light today and pulled the front end well up shifting from first to second not even trying  . Oh, and 5% more power at the cost of cylinders is hardly a waste if you're looking at replacing the pistons anyway for different shape/CR. forged 1200 and 1250 pistons cost the same. (Message edited by phelan on April 23, 2014) |
