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Roco
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 02:30 am: | 
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1. Jolly: full set
2. Beardo: full set
3.Roco: full set |
Greg_cifu
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 01:53 pm: |
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So if I've done my homework properly (read all the links), the original price on those replacement sideplates was $250 and $150 = $400 ten years ago.
Given inflation, they would end up right where I estimated: at least $600 today.
Either I'm misunderstanding or others are but, you also see that's a newer style kickstand that gets used with those updated plates, right? This is essentially a modification to update the S2 to the later model kickstand, geometry, lean angle, etc. Figure another $50-70 for that kickstand (I just checked Ebay pricing).
How many people are willing to spend $700 for a kickstand mod and some cool, shiny, billet sideplates?
My experience with these things is that lots of people say they're "in" but, when it comes to actually doing it, excuses start coming and they back out. This will never fly for one or two sets (reverse engineering and programming costs will kill it). |
Buellish
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 05:53 pm: |
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You are correct they use a later tuber side stand.I believe I have either an M2 or X1 part,I don't really remember.The foot doesn't sit flat.I have always meant to cut it off and fix it. |
Beardo
| | Posted on Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 07:03 pm: |
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I've spent a hell of a lot more on booze and hookers, so a little bit of money for parts isn't a big deal. |
Jolly
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 12:09 am: |
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Beardo, I agree, lets have a beer and discuss philosophy....
I'm in, do I have to write the check today to prove it?
I figure this is the price of owning cool bikes, 4 tubers, 2 guzzis, 2 triumphs, and a host of others, you only have to pay the price once for the cool part, and get to enjoy it every single time you put the kick stand down or up..... lets try some different math...rough estimate for a low production run which doesn't help off set the price equates to 600.00.. so amortized over the "lets take the bike for a ride" factor, every start and stop is two actions of the kick stand, lets assume that each ride is at least three stop-and-gos...lets say you ride the bike once per week with three stop and gos and therefor three actuations of the kick stand per ride, that's at least 36 actions of the kick stand per year at a minimum......that's 16.60 per action assuming you don't raise and lower the kick stand per year..or one and a half beers...now lets add in raise it to get it into the street, lower it to park it to warm it up, raise it to leave for the ride, that's three more, then ride home park in street, open the garage, raise it lower it again to park it...now you've added 4 more per ride...which "math in public equals 84 actuations of the kick stand per year... is $7.14 in insurance that you done drop you bike every time you ride it and move the kickstand......and that's if you want to amortize the savings over a year....... and I am sure there are more than one rides per week..... or we could just say its a cool part, I am not lucky enough to buy the part when it was more readily available, so I have to pay the late" tax...... either way, if someone here has the skills and capability to make the part I would like to help herald the initiative to rejuvenate the part to off set the price, bring the cost down, and make it available for an acceptable price for all of us....if you dropped your very rare S2 that was perfectly built and trashed the body or frame, and all it would have takes was 600.00 in very cool aluminum side plates....it might be worth it...the fun of these bikes is spending the money to correct what couldn't be done in the barn...and finish a beautiful bike with the vision of hindsight.....
yes, the price of the side plates as currently discussed is about 18% of the cost of my S2.....and I will brag about the cool rare parts any time someone will listen....
this is fun!!!!! |
Jolly
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 12:12 am: |
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as an example, how many people just bought in to get Banke to make another run of shifter and brake pedals.....there are cheape options out there, but we got enough people to buy in to make it happen...and keep the price down..... |
Greg_cifu
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 02:07 am: |
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OK, let me see what I can come up with.
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Jolly
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 09:28 am: |
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did my ramblings just guarantee the price would be 600.00?? no matter what it costs to make them? boy Ill tell ya, the courage of conviction sure can be expensive! what I meant to say was...after I take the time to finish my new S2 complete with paint and really bring it up to a nice standard...it would sure kill me to have it fall off that side stand just once!! so a little cost up front to fix the problem is something I would rather not have to pay, but for a cool part that fixes a known issue with this bike...yeah, I'm in for the insurance and cool factor...looks like you have the tools and capability for sure!!  |
Greg_cifu
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 11:09 am: |
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Well, nobody is committed to anything yet, not even me. I'm taking a solid look at it. Honestly, with my best, good-guy pricing, I can't see them at $600 until 10 sets are sold. At three sets, they price out at $725/set. I'm trying to work out how to drop that price down to around $600. I won't be able to get to the metals place for a few days, need to figure out for sure how thick the metal needs to be, etc, etc.
The irony is: I don't even want a set for my personal bike. And to put this into perspective for you guys: if I DID want a set, I'd gladly pay $750 for a set before I'd go to the trouble of making only one set for myself. The costs of soft tooling to hold everything, machine setup and spindle time are too expensive for one-offs on motorcycles. |
Jolly
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 08:36 pm: |
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thanks, Ill be patient, I do appreciate the time it will take even to explore making these. maybe given some time we can get more than three guys interested..... |
Steveford
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 08:40 pm: |
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I'd be interested in a left hand side at the very least.
They don't have to be exceedingly fancy, I just want something that will accept a later side stand. |
Kc_zombie
| | Posted on Monday, September 02, 2013 - 10:09 pm: |
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Awww yeah, I am in...
KC Zombie: Full Set (left and right)
Keep us posted on any development. You can bank on my commitment.
Let me know if I am missing something. |
Greg_cifu
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 11:42 am: |
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Alright, who knows about the different side stands? So far, I've identified:
The S3/M2 sidestand: common from 1997-2002 on both models.
The S1 sidestand: has a 96Y part number and in my 1998 parts book was not superseded by the S3 part. That leads me to believe that SOMETHING is different between them.
The X1 sidestand: from the little research I've been able to do without a parts book, this is not the same part as either the S1 OR the S3/M2.
Can anybody elaborate on the changes? I would have expected the X1 and S1 to share kickstands if length was the issue. The Lightnings have higher pegs so it would make sense if the kickstands had to be a little longer but, why change the part number between S1 and X1?
I have an S1 and S3/M2 here but, no X1 to compare to. |
Kc_zombie
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 03:16 pm: |
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X-1 Side Stand Part numbers:
L0167.9YJ 1 SIDESTAND ASM. sky white
L0167.9YP 1 SIDESTAND ASM. nuclear blue
L0167.9YT 1 SIDESTAND ASM. designer black
S1/S1W Side Stand:
50094-96Y
Other than use of the revised part numbering systems and color designations for the X1 side stand, I believe they are the same part. They look identical in the parts catalog diagrams anyway...
(Message edited by kc_zombie on September 03, 2013) |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 04:00 pm: |
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Might it not be easier and cheaper to fabricate a replacement side stand that fits the stock side plates? |
4speeder
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 09:19 pm: |
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I actually thought about doing that to mine but I ended up just cold bending it for the same result. It would be a simple thing to saw the stand tube off the pivot lug and then cut an angle on the top of the tubing and re-weld it back on the lug. It would also need to be angled back slightly to account for the forward angle. Now that modification truly would look like it came that way from the factory! |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - 10:31 pm: |
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The biggest issue is the lack of a "bump" inside the sideplate, to keep the loaded sidestand from sliding back to its raised position if the bike rolls forward. Even with the sidestand-bend, you can still roll an S2 forward and fold the sidestand. |
Greg_cifu
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 12:37 am: |
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Just to be clear: my S1 and S3 do not have any kind of bump that I'm aware of. They are also just pivoted side-stands.
I've been working under the assumption that the new plate will just match the design and geometry of these later stands (no locking feature). What will make them more stable than the S2 is the steeper angle and a bit more forward 'down' position. Am I misunderstanding the expectation? |
Kc_zombie
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 05:28 pm: |
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Thats what I'm thinking. Revised geometry, no bump, just pivot too a slightly forward locked position. |
Greg_cifu
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 12:51 am: |
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Hmmm...you guys are going to be upset but, I'm afraid I can't continue with this project. Honestly, it comes down to liability. The part ultimately ties together parts of the frame, mounts the engine to the rest of the bike and holds the kickstand. I have zero worry over the strength of the material or the design (since it's just a copy of the sand-cast original). Nonetheless, I have no control over where these parts end up or who might buy your bike in the future. People have been sued over far more trivial things. Sorry, I'm out. |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 04:17 pm: |
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Understood completely. It is a sad reality that the lawyers, judges, and idiot jury members have cowed us all into submissive inaction for fear of being sued. Our legal system needs an enema. |
Jolly
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2013 - 10:02 pm: |
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ouch I get it....hey...I was going to make some mock up parts for my really cool tribute to a Buell basement...I have no intention of ever mounting these really cool parts on my bike that I will never sell...just want neat mock up copies of same or better quality to display over my beer fridge.......yeah, ok, I get it too.....
if anyone wanted to make a set and use me as a volunteer test rider (qualified ex test pilot used to people trying to kill him with ridiculous engineer parts) I would be happy to sign up as the test dummy for thousands of miles of testing for free of charge.  |
Kc_zombie
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2013 - 05:05 pm: |
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Oh well, looked good on paper anyway.  |
Greg_cifu
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 12:25 am: |
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Or at least on the computer. I got as far as removing the sideplate and reverse engineering most of the geometry. All that remained on the left side was to work out the kickstand mount.
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Jolly
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 08:10 am: |
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oh...were so close, were just down to turning a big chunk of aluminum into a small plate surrounded by lots of tiny chunks of waste!....what if I took the drawings to a separate machine shop which kept you out of the MFG process?...maybe start with the right drawing, measured or copied (isn't there a machine that can take an existing part and copy it into CAD..ok yeah, clearly proving that I know so very little about this world)....with the drawings I (we???) are at least one step closer. an additional thought, at this point its a flat plate, to keep the cost down what about a second block that is the kickstand receiver that bolts to the plate instead of turning a thick plate into a single piece to keep them integrated? (again, no idea on the structural complications of that...) |
Greg_cifu
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2013 - 02:18 pm: |
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There are still challenges to making the parts, even if the CAD model were complete.
Yes, there are scanners that recover millions of points from a surface. Those can help in recreating a part. In my experience, the process works better for curvy shapes than orthographic shapes with hard edges. Sharp edges get lost in the scan and when you're trying to precisely locate mounting holes, it doesn't work so well.
This one was clamped in the CNC and all the hole bores were probed--accurate to four decimal places. I had to make an aluminum bushing to go in the engine mount hole so I could probe that position from the outside. The access hole and the mount hole are not concentric--visible in the rendering below.
On top of that, lots of extra edge distance was left on the original castings so things did not have to precisely line up if the casting warped or whatever, before it was finish machined.
If you look at the mounting holes and passenger peg holes on most S2s, I'll bet they aren't even close to being concentric to the radius on the outside edge (mine weren't).
I tried to subtly adjust those things so they became precisely located on the shape, without altering the overall look. The CNC one would have looked neater and crisper than the original, even though it's the same general shape.
As for manufacturing, there are remaining issues there. Even if the sidestand bracket were not part of the bigger piece, the engine mounting boss on the back sticks out a significant distance as well. It wouldn't save much material or machining time.
Then there remains the issue of holding the part while it's in the machine. The sidestand bracket is angled to the rest of the part. That means somebody has to have some really big adjustable angle plates to hold the work, or holding blocks need to be made out of aluminum to hold the part. All of this is to hold it during machining of the pivot hole and the pocket for the kickstand (2 setups).
It wasn't just the material that drove the cost. Reverse engineering all these features, then designing and manufacturing all the custom tooling to hold the final parts did. Those are the parts nobody ever sees. Only make one part? The one part has to pay for all of that fixturing and development. Making 1000 parts? The fixturing cost is almost invisible.
Removing 80-90% of the material from a block is not uncommon at all. It's also not a slow processes...as long as all the fixturing is solid and has a good grip on the part.
This will give you some idea how quickly material can be removed with the right machine and workholding.
http://youtu.be/ZFBdG7ZCwV0 |
Jolly
| | Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2013 - 04:58 pm: |
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yeah that's cool.....of course, it just keeps pointing me towards the idea of solutions and possibilities instead of "insurmountable odds".... I know, easy to say when your the guy (me) that doesn't have to invest the time and materials to make something too few people want to actually get a return on your investment in...time and materials...  |
Jolly
| | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2013 - 10:43 am: |
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I have found someone that can reproduce the side plate for newer style kickstands. outstanding machinist who does one off style custom work as a business. Greg_Cifu, it might help speed up the process if you were to make your scans available to me in a CD I can send him. He is not asking for them, I just thought it might help him get to work faster. now the big question: DOES ANYONE have a side plate with the updated design that I can borrow to get to the machinist. if it came with a loaner kick stand that would be awesome....however I will buy one from ebay if I have to. ANYONE??  |
Buelljunkie
| | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2013 - 12:57 pm: |
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I for one appreciate the efforts of Greg_cifu and Jolly trying to somehow make this work. I would definitely buy a set if they were eventually created. Whatever the cost turns out to be, it would be relatively cheap insurance against the likelihood of a tip-over and the resulting damage to our precious irreplaceable S2's!
It seems like a lot of work has already gone into conceiving & designing.
Between Jolly's CAN-DO attitude, his machinist and Greg_cifu's apparent abilities it seems plausible to make this a reality.
In lieu of having anything else to contribute, I would be willing to make a donation or pre-payment to help offset any costs these 2 guys have developing better sideplates. Maybe look at it as a deposit of sorts?
Thoughts?? |
Jolly
| | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2013 - 01:00 pm: |
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this thread title can be confusing, if the forum administrators don't mind I am going to re-introduce this as a more appropriately named thread.
if the administrators don't want the extra thread trashing up space, please feel free to consolidate threads.
thank you,
Jolly |
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