| Author | Message | ||
     Drixton |
Hello, Back in early July, I bought my first Buell, an S1W, from Aaron (ASWRacing). It have ~7500 miles on it, and I rode it ~850 miles from Spokane, where I picked it up, back home to Oakland. Around Redding, a good ~250 miles from Oakland, the oil light came on. Not knowing anything about Buells, I checked the oil level and it seemed fine, but topped it off regardless. The light never turned off, and it was making a terrible sound, but I didn't have any option other than riding home. It was the 4th of July and everything was closed. I made it home and took it to a mechanic afterwards. The oil pump seized, and the oil pump main drive gear was shredded. Amazingly it made it all the way home with no oil pump, and didn't take the rest of the engine with it. I checked for damage on all of the critical parts, replaced the lifters, performed a leak down test, and she was good to go. Since then I've put on over 3,000 miles. It burns about a quart every 1,000 miles. A good friend of mine with a 2001 Sportster 1200 says his does the same and has the entire time hes owned it (I think from ~10,000mi to ~25,000). My mechanic says that it's probably something with the heads, having run so long without oil pumping, regardless of surviving the trip from Redding, or that it's the rings, regardless of passing the leak down test. I'm not too worried about the oil being burned, but I'm starting the do research and composing a list of parts and services that I'd like to get for the inevitable rebuild that will have to be done. What I do know is that I want it to be a street motor that I plan on putting many miles on, so it has to be reliable and not require a lot of attention. I'd like to set it and forget it. I'd be running 91 pump most of the time, however I do have up to ~100 available to me if I go out of my way, but by no means should this be counted on, or would it ever be a regular occurrence. I'm also considering everything from keeping it entirely stock, to going pretty hot (but not too hot). I don't know what my budget will be yet, and won't know for while. So for the time being I'm not going to worry about costs. Instead, I'd rather approach this from an angle of what types of parts and services would be worth getting, and what parts and services I should avoid due to a low cost benefit ratio when considering that I want a reliable street engine. Here are some of the types of things I'm considering. I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks in advance. HEADS Depending on the cost of parts/labor that's required for the existing Thunderstorm heads, I'd consider getting XB heads. The types of questions that come to mind are: - Keep the Thunderstorms stock? - Port the Thunderstorms? - Get stock XB heads? - Get ported XB heads? It's also worth mentioning that if I get different pistons, I may need head work too. CAMS Well if I'm getting XB heads and/or getting the heads ported, I should probably get cams too... OTHER VALVETRAIN Well if I'm getting heads and cams, why not rockers and adjustable pushrods? PISTONS AND CYLINDERS The pistons will need to be pulled to change the rings. Well, why not upgrade the pistons as well? Will this require boring/honing? Should I get new cylinders too? SPLIT THE CASES? Should I big and bore the cases while I'm at it? I'm not sure if I want to split the cases though. If I do though, why not lighten the crank and get new rods? Six speed trans? IDK!! At this point, I may was well just get new 4" bore S&S cases... or I could artificially limit myself by imposing a rule of being able to change anything as long as it's not a major structural part (ie heads, cylinders, cases...). At what point will it no longer really be an S1W, and become just another bastard Harley build? As you may be able to tell, I just don't know where to stop, and I am in desperate need of guidance. Thanks again. - Drixton TL;DR At some point I'm going to have to rebuild my S1W and I just don't know where to stop. Any advice is appreciated. | ||
| Red93stang |
If you can afford it, I say do all the above. | ||
| Foximus |
Stock per stock. Your thunderstorm heads are better performance than XB heads. Ported and dished, with matching pistons XB heads will rock your world, and have sufficient area to cool. As for splitting the cases and boring... I dont think 50CC's is worth the time and expense. A proper port and valve job will easily make that amount in power. As for cams. The andrews N4 are a really good cam but I believe its the 536's that are the mack daddy for street performance without going nuts. Dont build for 100 octane. If no one sells 93 (common in florida) and you only get 91... build for 91. Its what you ride. You dont want to make it a chore of filling up to ride. Thats just my opinions... | ||
| Brinnutz |
Stock XB heads out perform stock Thunderstorms by far. I recommend XB heads, XB12 pistons, and some "E" grind cams for long term performance upgrade. (Message edited by brinnutz on September 27, 2012) | ||
| Drixton |
"Stock XB heads out perform stock Thunderstorms by far. I recommend XB heads, XB12 pistons, and some "E" grind cams for long term performance upgrade. " - Brinnutz That sounds reasonable. Thanks. Do you know what I have to do to get "quiet" cams? From my understanding, most tube frame Buells had cams that were match fitted to each engine, but for some reason the S1W did not get this treatment. If I was changing the cams, what would I have to look for to get these quieter cams? Thanks. | ||
| Brinnutz |
What do you mean by quieter cams? Never heard cams referred to as quieter before... | ||
| Drixton |
"What do you mean by quieter cams? Never heard cams referred to as quieter before..." - Brinnutz Here is the response I got from Aaron (the guy is legit) when I asked him why my valvetrain sounds "chattier" than an M2 that just rolled into the shop I hang out at: Through the 1999 model year, the "D" and "W" cams used in Sportsters and Buell S2's and M2's were all factory fitted to the motors ... there are literally 7 part numbers for each of the #1, 3, and 4 cams, and 49 part numbers for the #2 cam since it has two gears on it. The factory would measure each motor individually and choose cams for a perfect fit. This held the noise down. But the S1, S3, and X1 got a different set of cams ... the Screamin' Eagle .497 lift version, aka "B" cams, and these were not factory fitted, it's a one-size-fits-all deal. As a result, they're noisier. One time I went over to Holland and stayed with a friend of mine in Amsterdam for a few days. He had a Buell M2. The first time I started it, it sounded just exactly like an S1, and I told him I had never heard an M2 make that much racket. Later I found out that international M2's all got the "B" cams too. Anyway, my point is that yes, the S1 will make more cam box noise than a Sportster or an M2 or an S2 for that matter, and it's totally, completely normal. Just an FYI, in 2000, they went to a high contact ratio gear cut between the pinion gear and the #2 cam gear. In 2001, they propagated this change to all the other cam gear connections as well. This gear cut eliminated the need to fit the cams, now there's only one part number for each. They aren't bad, noise wise, but they're not as quiet as a factory-fitted 91-99 motor. If you ever want to quiet it down a tad, you could update the cams and pinion gear to the 01-up versions, they bolt right in. But I wouldn't bother, personally. Edit: "If you ever want to quiet it down a tad, you could update the cams and pinion gear to the 01-up versions, they bolt right in. But I wouldn't bother, personally." The answer was there all along! I told you, legit! (Message edited by drixton on September 27, 2012) | ||
| Greg_cifu |
Stock. Stock exhaust, stock breadbox, stock engine. Leave it alone. That will be the closest you'll get to a bike you don't have to tinker with and meet your other objectives. The bike is all about punchy mid-range, short wheelbase and handling. Many of the mods you described are little return on investment or counterproductive to a reliable, tinker-free engine. The only exception I MIGHT make would be a good 1250 kit. It's not for the reason you think. The plated liners and aluminum cylinders will seal and cool better. My S2 has one and it uses the least oil of my four tubers. | ||
| Drixton |
You sir, are a voice of reason. | ||
| Greg_cifu |
I don't know. I ride briskly but, rarely find myself opened to the throttle stop. The bike can go fast enough in the mountains to get me in a heap of trouble in a hurry, without much muss or fuss. There are certainly things you can improve on if you're inside the engine. The two I keep reading about but, haven't done are the oil pump gear and the primary chain tensioner slipper. The cylinder bores (as already mentioned) are another longevity improvement. That's just a technology move from iron sleeves to a superior cylinder design. The XB heads seem like a good idea but, I would bet that without mods elsewhere, it would be unnoticeable (you already have Thunderstorms). Plus, the fins don't cosmetically match the cylinders unless you go XB barrels too. The Lightning already has the bitchin' cams. Sure, there are others that will rev more and make more on top but, are you going to ride it there? Will it be tinker-free if you ride it there very often? I have two Thunderstorm engines: 1998 S1W and 2001 S3. I often have to remind myself that there's a whole world in those engines beyond 4000 RPM. I simply don't ride it there. I'm usually 3000-4500 RPM, rolling on from corner to corner and riding the torque curve. That gets me speeds between 50-80 MPH in the mountains. I don't have any business riding it faster than that on that road (sight-lines and road debris being the biggest limiting factors). | ||
| Foximus |
I have 07 screamin eagle heads on my s1. So its the large Polished fins which are super noticable, on small all black barrels. I personally love the look. The large fin barrels dont really drop that much more heat, as about 70% of an cylinders heat is transfered DIRECTLY to the head, not the cylinder. Anyway, I think the large cylinders look silly... too close together and make it look like a HD fatboy with those ridiculous huge things. Small barrels with fat heads is where its at.  | ||
| Brinnutz |
Well, here is what XB heads with XB jugs look like. Much bigger cooling fins. They fill out the engine area and make it look MUCH MUCH better, take a look and compare it to another T-storm bike...it looks empty. XB heads WILL show significant performance increase of Thunderstorm heads. Greater flow, stiffer springs.  | ||
| Drixton |
@Greg_cifu - You're right. I ride there too. @Foximus - I agree with you. Don't you still owe me details about your intake? @Brinnutz - What I've read so far is in line with what you said about the XB. Is that a braced S1 race headers/can and an X1 swingarm? What is on the brace? Looks like a shock reservoir or oil catch can? And that's a very large seat, so is it safe to say that you the rear pegs see some use? Everyday I learn more and more... Keep the advice coming, I love it! Edit: Here's a question. On XL cases, how and where does oil move between the inside of the case and the primary? Also, does anybody offer an aftermarket engine/primary plate for XLs to seal inside of the primary between the case, but keep the clutch and pulleys dry (ie not an entire open primary setup, but just the engine/primary plate? (Message edited by drixton on September 28, 2012) | ||
| Airbozo |
FYI: I installed the S&S 89" stroker kit in my 95 1200. I also used the Woods W8S cams (removed the Andrews A6's that came with the kit) and replaced the valves and other top end parts. A Dynatek 2Ki programmable ignition and Supertrapp 2-1. It took a little time and an experienced mechanic to dial this engine in. I have put over 30k miles on this build with no issues what so ever. (ok some gasket weep that was fixed by retorquing most of the bolts) I am now getting 96hp and 101 tq to the rear wheel and I have not even played with the ignition maps yet. The off the line pull on this engine is insane. You better be hanging on tight. I had to learn not to pull the front end off the ground in 1st, 2nd and to some extent 3rd. The high end is also nice. At 80 mph, I am at ~3500rpm and the bike will take off like a rocket with a twist of the throttle even at 80mph. The power band is wide enough that I am not constantly up/down shifting when riding through the mountains. The downside? I MUST run 100 octane or the engine pings. Using octane boost works most of the time and so far has not fouled any plugs or caused any other issues, but I still try to run 100 octane when I can. I do get 48-50 mpg even the way I ride but at $9/gal, it is expensive fun. The top end of this engine is NOISY! The first 10k miles I was expecting something to break at WOT. The mechanic that dialed this engine in pulled the top end after 15k miles to make sure nothing was wrong, but only because I insisted. Nothing was wrong, the cams exacerbate the noisy top end. I love the difference in the power of this engine. I am not in love with the way the S&S jugs look as I think it detracts from the original look of the bike. After everything I have gone through with this bike, I am still happy with it, except the cost of gas and availability. If I stray from my HWY9 commute, I have to carry octane boost. Would I do it again? Probably not. The cost was more than any estimate I was given (even though I did some of the work myself), and my frame had to be cut to fit the motor back in (almost and inch taller). If I ever decide to modify an XL engine again, I will most likely go with one of the NRHS kits so I can run pump gas. After purchasing an S3T, I am reminded how noisy my sportster engine is. I plan on keeping this S3t engine stock for now. Here is a shot just before it was finished: http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/719/sportynew.j pg | ||
| Drixton |
@Airbozo - Thank you for your input. Seriously, everyone, thank you. What I do know is that regardless of what I end up doing, I need to plan on running on 91, and I don't want to modify the frame. I actually do have some frame mods in mind, but only involving the subframe, foot peg mounts, and rear isolator mounts. | ||
| Airbozo |
Drixton: I have been curious if this S&S 89" build would need frame modification on a Buell. I was going to do some comparisons on my S3T this weekend. Not that I would do it, I am just curious. | ||
| Drixton |
I've read about this. Once again, Aaron with all the answers... http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php? t=252690 I swear, most of the time that I do a search for a Buell question, usually somebody has already asked it, and usually Aaron has answered it. Complete chance that the guy I bought my S1W from ends up being the Buell guru. | ||
| Sleez |
i know where a 1250 kit is for sale!! LOL great bang for the buck! | ||
| Drixton |
I saw it, and I would, and I'm not far (Oakland, remember?), but the crank, jugs, and head for my vintage Honda all came in sooner than expected and now I've already spent my paycheck for September that I didn't even get yet... I'm going to spend the next few months saving for the Buell because although I'm [unfortunately] not done spending money on the Honda yet, most of it has already been spent. I've spent far too much money on the thing already. It wasn't a choice, it was an addiction... and now I'm broke. | ||
| Jayvee |
Do the XB cylinders need anything done to be installed on a tuber? And if one gets a 1250 kit for an XB, do they come with the big fins? I really like the look of Brinnutz' bike, but was thinking also about the 1250 kit. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Drixton, we are right up the road at Infineon and can help with your S-1---only had about 8 myself. You should come to Sportbike Night in San Leandro monday night. | ||
| Drixton |
Yea Aaron told me about it and I plan on coming. I was out of town on Sept. 1, and I the S1W was getting the oil pump work done during August 1st. It's actually in the shop now, not because it really needed work, but because I needed to take a break from riding. Up until this week, I was working 60-70 hour weeks, 6-7 days a week, for 6 weeks straight. It was affecting my riding, and every week my riding was getting noticeably riskier and more dangerous. I just had to take a step back and divorce myself from the situation until things calmed down. If I get a chance to pick it up before Monday I'll ride down. If not, I'll try driving and you'll just have to take me on my word that I own an S1W... =[ | ||
| Preybird1 |
I would take fireman jim up on his offer to have you stop by!! They are experts and can set you up with all the work and tuning. My bike is on there home page JTSperformance.com I have nothing but great things to say about these guys. The are incredibly knowledgeable and helpful. My dyno in 4th gear  My engine dropped 2 exhaust valves and destroyed the motor and i needed new jugs and heads. I spent almost 4k on the top end and tuning and dyno runs. Check my profile to see most of the mods i have done. | ||
| Tombo |
Foximus, that engine look really matches your S1. Ideally, I would go with the larger finned heads and stock cylinders on my S1 as you did and the larger head and cylinder finning on my S3 (as on Wilson's bike). Wilson, I have xb cylinders waiting for winter installation, did you have to trim any fins around your carb/float bowl to make them work? And that is one of the best color combinations. | ||
| Brinnutz |
Thanks TJ. No, nothing needed to be trimmed. You just have to drill the holes for the carb mount. I suggest drilling those once the motor is mounted in the bike and you can more easily line everything up. @Drixton, I'm not sure what you are asking, my bike is a 2002 M2, not an S1. Check my profile, it's not stock. I believe it was Spidey who did the XB12 pistons with XB heads and jugs, but I can't recall cams, and hit just shy of 100rwhp. (Message edited by brinnutz on September 29, 2012) | ||
| Drixton |
I'm still learning. The only tube framed Buells I know anything about are the S1s, and to some degree the X1s. On top of that, I've been reading about XBs and RRs. M2s, S2s, and S3s, and any other tubers I'm leaving out, I don't really know much about, not can I identify by looks just yet. | ||
| Brinnutz |
Well, normal M2's have standard forks. I have inverted on mine which might be confusing to a noobie...lol Just remember, with XB heads you'll need the billet mount from NRHS or American Sport Bike because the mounting holes are offset slightly. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
"Here's a question. On XL cases, how and where does oil move between the inside of the case and the primary? Also, does anybody offer an aftermarket engine/primary plate for XLs to seal inside of the primary between the case, but keep the clutch and pulleys dry (ie not an entire open primary setup, but just the engine/primary plate?" It doesn't look like this question was answered directly, the engine case and primary case cast together but carry separate fluids, there is a seal that often goes bad on the primary side of the crank that will let engine oil spill over to your primary. I'm working on that on my tuber now.} From my reading here I recall that Tattonscrewed had an S1 he put XB cylinders on with XB9 heads and pistons, seems like he netted over 100 rwhp, something like 103 or 107 maybe, but the compression was fairly high and his lower end eventually let go like he said it might. That was stock parts, the XB12 stuff Brin is telling you about seems like a great way to go for bolt on reliability. I've done no mods myself to the motor, this is just passing on previously posted info. | ||
| Brinnutz |
Compression is 12:1 on with the XB9 pistons, and I've not had a single issue yet. And I'm not usually easy on the motor. The thing with Tattodnscreweds was timing. He had set his limiter a little too high which caused the issue. Mine is set to about 6300 I believe to help stay away from dropping the bottom end. | ||
| Rick_a |
I have cams, a 1250 kit, and ported XB style heads. I'm getting 100hp and over 90ft-lbs (in a bad state of tune...never had enough dyno time to get the top end fully dialed-in). I kept the compression ratio reasonable with flat-top pistons (mechanical CR is 10.2:1 IIRC). It is at a level where it is truly fun to ride with a decent top end and more power everywhere. The throttle is rarely at the stop, unlike stock where I had it whacked open and bouncing off the limiter often. | ||
| Drixton |
@Littlebuggles - Thanks for the response. Do you know of anybody that makes a primary block off plate to keep the transmission/primary fluid sealed while allowing a dry clutch? Or, do you know how one would seal the transmission from the primary? @Brinnutz and Rick_a - Thanks for your input. | ||
| Drixton |
@Firemanjim - Thanks for having me at ASBN. I'll try to come out next month with the S1W. The more I read, and the more I talk to people, the more it looks like the answer is to stay at or near stock. I have to admit though, I really like what Foximus did with his S1. Question: If I was to consider head work on the stock Thunderstorms, what pistons would be a good match? | ||
| Foximus |
Get some XB heads. Find a set of flat top pistons for it, and you'll love it. | ||
| Drixton |
@Foximus - You still owe me details and pics of your intake! And I'd like to know the details of your fork conversion, including if you used a custom stem... |
