| Author | Message | ||
     Wesleyb82 |
I bought a *new* 1997 Buell Cyclone M2 about 6 weeks ago that had been sitting with several other Buells in the back of a Harley dealership for many years. After a carb clean and break-in the bike is running great but I’m having some high end stability problems. The Problem: Beginning at 80mph and definitely at 90+mph (I know I’m at 90 w/o looking down) I get a unstable/light front end. This happens especially on the highway (Sunrise Highway on Long Island NY) which is put together in sections that leads to an extremely rough/bumpy ride that worsens this issue. On a flat road I can get around 100mph before it starts to feel sketchy. I have checked: Air pressure (at 34/32) but I have found that the tires are losing pressure over time (airing up every couple weeks), I have adjusted the suspension and currently running slightly higher front rebound (1/8th clockwise) and slightly lower compression (#3) as per my best interpretation of the manual. This seems to have tightened things up but not solved the problem. I do not wear loose clothing, do not death grip the bars and have tried different riding positions and find leaning forward seems to help. I have tried to observe the movement at these speeds and there isn’t much movement in the forks but they do wobble/shake a little. I get the feeling that I’m bouncing down the highway- its not planted/straight lined like all other motorcycles I’ve ever ridden and it’s an unsettling feeling. My best uneducated guess is that the tires might have a flat spot or other problems from sitting so long. Before I have the tires inspected/balanced or buy a new set I wanted to post and see if anyone had any suggestions for me. | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
I would think your looking in the right area....15 yr. old tires would leave a lot to be desired. I would get rid of them before you have a real problem. | ||
| Jumbo_petite |
When I bought my "new" 95 S2 last year I changed the tires before I would ride it. I do not trust 16 year old rubber | ||
| Jim2 |
It kind of sounds to me like your bike may be sagging in the back and too high in the front -Get rid of the old tires and get new -make sure new wheels/tires are good balance -check steering head bearing per Factory Service Manual (FSM) -check your suspension sag, both front and back - Is your tire pressure you were running more pressure in the back tire and less in the front? -check your rear isolators and make sure they aren't torn or worn out. If these are worn they could cause the back end to be sagging. | ||
| Jim2 |
also... -Your front forks need to be set in the triple tree per FSM -are both front forks in proper operating condition with equal settings and fork oil level? | ||
| Wesleyb82 |
Thank you for your input I appreciate it. Sounds like the first thing I need is a service manual which I can only find in hard copy for $50+. Online links I find are for different models. I'm pricing tires tomorrow but will explore these suggestions first. Never shopped tires any suggestions? Planning to buy online and mount locally. Sag/preload was checked by HD during tuneup and they claim it's within spec. I'm running 34 front 32 rear but had it at 32/30 at first. I will check your other suggestions once I figure out how. | ||
| Jim2 |
Your are running the front and back tire pressures backwards. There are some racers that will tell you to run the way you are but you are not on a track and you will not get good mileage out of your tires running that way. You should try 32 front and 36 rear according to the 99-2000 FSM. I don't know if it's suggested different for the 97 model but it really matters what the tire manufacturer recommends too. Look up the tires you have and see what the manufacturer recommends for them. I like the Michelin Pilot Road 2CT tires. I run them at 36 front and 38 rear and get great traction and great mileage out of them. There are many other good tires too. I chose mine for the good grip in both wet and dry conditions and the extended mileage I get from the dual compound construction. They have harder rubber in the middle where your tires are during commuting and softer rubber on the sides where your tire is when in corners. Anyway, you have some other problem but I suppose the reverse tire pressures could add to an existing problem. The thing that caught my attention was you said it felt more stable when you tucked forward and not so much when you were sitting up more. that makes me think your sag is off and the front is riding higher than the back. I'm not an expert and I may be off base so I'm hoping someone else here with more experience will chime in and set you straight. Good luck and let us know what you find out. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
As far as my experience goes Jim is pointing you in the right direction. I've never heard of running the rear tire at a lower pressure but that alone may lead to a lower back end, and increase your wobble tendency at higher speeds. Get new tires, if you are running D205's your are looking for trouble as they probably are the originals or close to it. Looking for trouble running up to 100mph on dry old rubber too. 120/70 front 170/60 rear Continental, Michelin, Avon, Pirelli, there are a lot of good tires out there, most give better feel, traction, and wear rates than the Dunlop D205 ever did. I'm running D207's at the moment but I think the best tire I've run so far has been the Conti Road Attack (great on the track and road, excellent wear and nice wet handling), however, I still have not tried the Pilot Roads, Road 2's, and now there are Road 3's. They are all said to be great tires. If new tires and proper pressure still don't cure what ails you, increase pre-load on the back and consider dropping the forks in the triples clamps a millimeter or two. It doesn't take much and changes of this sort should be done one item at a time so you know what to fix if your handling got worse. I'm also not an expert but know what has worked for me over the last 13 years or so since I started riding. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Welcome to badweb too! | ||
| Blake |
>>> Sag/preload was checked by HD during tuneup and they claim it's within spec. I'd check it anyway. Too many instances of horribly incorrect Buell suspension setups coming out of less than competent dealership service departments. If they didn't setup the suspension with you sitting on the bike in full gear, then they are full of baloney. Get a friend to help you measure and check the sag. I suspect you'll find it is not within spec. Bearings don't typically suffer for sitting. Try 34 psi front, 36 rear as recommended by the owner's manual. C | ||
| Buellistic |
"i" agree with BLAKE !!! More "STEALERSHIP" BUELLschitte !!! If you were not there, it was not set up for you !!! There is also EGERONOMICS, ie: handlebars, control levers, shift lever, brake lever, and mirrors !!! | ||
| Jim2 |
There is a set of Michelin Pilot Road 2's for a great price in the classified section right now. | ||
| Wesleyb82 |
The stock tires are D207s. Planning to double check preload with myself and gear tonight. 34/36 lbs made a huge difference under 80 but the problem is still there over 80. I did have the pressures reversed and was following advice I read on another forum. I'll also mention that the HD dealership gave me the bike with 32/26 (twenty six) lbs in the tires! That lead to straight up death wobble when I finally broke it in and got it over 70 mph for the first time. I'll never trust the dealership again. Thanks for the heads up Jim! I have decided on the Pilot Road 2's but looks like I missed that classified. That's fine, I've had bad luck with used tires in the past. Called around for tires, local shops want around $600+ for tires and mount with wheels on bike. I think I've decided to buy the tires online for $270, pull the wheels and have a local shop mount them which costs between $50-60/wheel, bringing me to $370. Plus $40 for a rear stand. Then I’m going to go out and blow the $200 I saved on bubble gum and cowboy hats. I purchased a factory service manual (eBay for $42) but the description says it could take up to a month to ship. I have been searching and searching for a guide to remove the wheels off the M2 but the closest I have come is a discussion where posters never mention a model so I don’t know how much of the info is relevant to me. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/476 23/468396.html Since I do not have the factory manual my question is then- can anyone provide guidance or confirm these suggestions apply to my bike? Also, can I pull the wheels with basic garage tools- hammers, wrenches, more hammers, sockets, torx + allen wrenches, rear stand, long straps to hang front end. Do I need a torque wrench? Should I wait for the manual? Thank you, really appreciate all the help. | ||
| Jim2 |
Pulling the wheels is not that hard to do but it's still a fair amount of work. By the time I have my wheels off there is no way I'm gonna just take them to a shop and pay them after I'll the work I just did to get the wheels to them. You can change the tires with a couple of tire levers and very large zip ties. The trick to getting the wheels off is supporting the bike to do it. There are various ways people do this. I use a Harbor Freight front wheel chock, automotive jack stands, and a hydrolic floor jack. The way I do it I can only do one wheel at a time. For the back wheel I take off and flip the rear pegs and then put them back on. This way they can only bend down and not up. I secure the front tire in the wheel choke and strap it from the fork tubes to the wheel chock. Then I place the floor jack underneath the rear shock mount and jack it up placing the automotive jack stands underneath the rear pegs. Now it's all secure to take off the back wheel. For the front wheel it's pretty much that in reverse. I adjust the wheel chock and back the bike into it (not really that easy by myself) and secure it with straps from the frame to the wheel chock. I then place the floor jack under the front shock mount and jack it up. I put the automotive jack stands underneath the forks. I have to loosen the pinch bolts on the forks before I put the jack stands under. Now the bike is secure to take the front wheel off. You will need a set of torque wrenches to do anything on these bikes. You will need a big socket for the back wheel and a big wrench. The only hammer I use is a rubber mallet to help seat the wheel against the adjusters. That's all I'm up for now, I'll try to tell you more later. When do you plan to do this? | ||
| Buellistic |
Wesleyb82: TIRES: www.cyclegear.com and put in your ZIP CODE !!! Buy a PARTS BOOK, you will understand why when you start looking for PARTS !!! Wait for you FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL before doing anything !!! "i" run 37 PSI FRONT and 40 PSI REAR !!! Change the BRAKE FLUID in both master cylinders and do it once a year ... PRIMARY CHAIN: adjust to 3/4 inch on the chain tight spot !!! DRIVE BELT: adjust to 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inch on the belt tight spot !!! Keep you battery on a TRICKLE CHARGER when not riding !!! Have a 111,611.2 miles on my 1997 S3T as of the last ride ... ENGINE/TRANSMISSION OIL: Use Harley-Davidson SYN3 20W50 ... OIL CHANGE: Transmission every 5K miles and engine every 3k miles(oil filter once a year) !!! What else would you like to know ??? | ||
| Kenm123t |
Buellistic has a GIANT oil filter! so dont freak out over it. He is also a walking service manual on tubers. | ||
| Wesleyb82 |
Found a 97 S1 service manual. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/Manuals/S1_1 996-1997_Service/BU2a.pdf Anyone know if the 97 M2 and 97 S1 wheel pull are similar enough to follow these instructions? | ||
| Buellistic |
If you put on the equivalent to a FORD FL-1A("i" paint them "BLACK") be sure to turn the HEAD of the BOLT that holds the lower clutch cable to the up side down "A" frame towards the oil filter ... IF YOU DO NOT THE THREADED END OF THE BOLT WILL WEAR A HOLE IN THE OIL FILTER DUE TO THE MOVEMENT OF THE RUBBER MOUNTED ENGINE !!! | ||
| M2marc |
Not exactly sure if this is what you are looking for.... but there is a lot of info to go through. Also there was a free manual that someone had posted. http://www.buellxb.com/Buell-XB-Forum/General-Moto rcycle-Chat/150-Helpful-Links-for-Buellers....and- Growing. | ||
| M2marc |
sorry.. try this one. http://www.buellxb.com/index.php?a=member&m=2339 | ||
| Littlebuggles |
 $200 will buy you a lot of bubble gum, doesn't go so far with cowboy hats though. I didn't follow the links above to see what they have to offer, but can say this regarding using the S1 manual. Your forks are different on the S1, but I think the specs for torque and all that are the same. They both have two pinch bolts at the bottom of the fork. The spacers are probably the same, and the routine for removing the caliper should also be the same. I think it will work for you. Basically the same engine-wise and tranny-wise as well so if you have those other fun projects to do, have at 'em. | ||
| Jim2 |
Word of caution. Those XB links are great but some of the things don't transfer to all of the Buells. I was just looking at the DIY tire change thread. Whatever you do, DO NOT jack up your M2 under the muffler as shown in that XB tire change thread. You will end up with some serious damage. | ||
| Wesleyb82 |
I'm buying a 3/8 10-75lb torque wrench today for $30 and borrowing front and rear stands. Don't know if the front is a fork or t-tree lift. Is a fork lift safe enough to use? I could use straps hanging from the garage ceiling on the bars as a precaution. Does anyone know the front and rear axle nut sizes? When the wheel is pulled do the spacers fall out or is it easy to keep track of them? Does anyone grease the axle before re-installation? | ||
| Jramsey |
36 mm rear,24mm front,1-7/16"rear,15/16" front will work fine if you don't have the metrics. I lightly coat the axles with Lubriplate. The rear has one spacer on the right,left side spacer is the caliper mount. Front has 2 spacers, hard to get backwards. Front axle torques 48-53 ft.lbs. Rear 66-73ft.lbs. (Message edited by Jramsey on June 28, 2012) | ||
| Buellistic |
"AND" you remove the rotor off the front wheel and tie wrap it in the caliper ... To get the rotor fasteners out must rap the fastener with a flat tip punch and hammer ... Then try to see if ti will loosen, if not the fun begins ... When you put them back is do not use thread lock as you will have the same problem all over again ... Use torgue'ing compound and torque to max.torque spec. !!! | ||
| Wesleyb82 |
I assumed since the rotor spins with the tire and wheel it should remain on during balancing. Sounds like that was an incorrect assumption? Tonight I checked the preload as per Jim's suggestion. The rear sag was .25" off the manual specs at 1" (loaded) and 1.5" (unloaded). 6 threads were visible on the spring bolts and after several changes I ended up with one thread visible to get to spec at 1.25" and 1.75". I think that means the rear was lower than it should have been. The front sag was 1.7" rider on bike vs. tire off the ground unloaded which was just outside spec (1-1.5"). 4 lines were showing and after slowly adjusting clockwise to 2 lines showing the difference was 1.4" which is where I stopped since it was within spec. If I am understanding these changes correctly the rear was low and the front was high which is what Jim suggested. Suspension terms and changes are new to me and it makes my head spin a little. After these changes the bike felt solid and reduced the unstable feeling above 80 but did not completely resolve it. I rode with a passenger last night and decided to slowly ride through 80-90 to see how it felt. It was Rock solid and I took it up to 105 with no problems. Do the preload changes I made sound correct? And a passenger fixed the problem. New tires are coming next week, preparing my tools for the job, should be fun, thanks for the guidance. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
I'm confused about removing the rotor as well, it is rotating mass so seems to be best to balance with it on there. Perhaps he is saying to remove the rotor from the wheel to make the wheel removal easier? There is a "sweet spot" in the placement of the rotor for removing the caliper, you have to rotate it to the right place for easiest removal. Once you've taken it off you can relieve the back of the caliper a little with a file to further ease caliper removal/installation. Regarding your ride adjustments it sounds like you are doing what it needed, raising the rear and lowering the front. Now with regards to riding being more stable with the passenger... well it sounds like you need to spend that $200 on pastries and ice cream, rather than bubble gum and hats. Gotta increase your laden weight, or just ratchet strap some cinder blocks to the back seat... | ||
| M2marc |
If it were my bike....at 105 I would have to repair the bite mark out of the seat. Glad to hear you got the issue resolved. | ||
| Gixxer86g |
Wesley, as has already been stated, get rid of those old tires. My 99 X1 currently runs Pirelli Diablo Stradas and I love them. They have all the grip I will need with the bonus of great mileage and great wet grip. They are just called Pirelli Diablo's now. Also check rear wheel alignment. My X1 has extremely light steering, and might benefit from a damper, but I never have any issues with wobbles or such right up to top speed. | ||
| Thylacine |
Why would you ever remove the rotor? I believe in Locktite. Heat and quality tools are all that is necessary. Have you changed these tires yet? (Message edited by thylacine on July 02, 2012) |
