| Author | Message | ||
     Imaposer2 |
Ok, so I'm shopping for a new intake to replace the filter that came on my bike. For reasons discussed in another thread I want a Forcewinder XR. And, in case it matters, I already have a catch tank system figured out and sourced. So, I have a question about the different kits, so please be patient and understand that I am a tight ass and like to save money where I can so I can have more to spend on more toys...  I've been looking at the kits and at different suppliers in an attempt to get the most bang for my buck. And before anyone says anything about supporting a sponsor, I did just place an order this morning with American Sport Bike for almost $300. Plus, they don't offer the Forcewinder kits. So anyway, I'm not sure what makes one kit for one bike different from another bike. I mean, sure if it's a Honda compared to a HD, then ok. But when it's a kit for the '96 Buell S1 with the Kiehn CV 40 carb, what separates that from a kit for other '86 and up HDs with the same carb? Obviously, the part where it mounts to the carb is the same since it's going on the same carb, right? The gasket looks the same. Pretty much everything looks the same with the exception of a few small plastic fittings and the hose(s) for the crank venting. And of course the price. Ok, so here's what I'm thinking... This is my current set-up:   As you can see, the heads are now vented back into the current filter. My plan is to replace this filter with the Forcewinder and then run a longer hose from where this one is now (first pic), to a new catch can. If I'm thinking straight all I need is the Forcewinder elbow piece, the gasket, bolts, filter, vent filter and a longer piece of 3/8" hose. If that's the case, then it would appear that this kit is all I need: Listed to fit HD Big Twins and XLs with the Kiehn CV40 carb. Model #5013 for $199.95 with free shipping.  http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORCEWINDER-XR-AIR-CLEANER -KIT-HARLEY-POLISHED-5013-K-N-Filter-Element-/1808 65147117?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=ite m2a1c6720ed&vxp=mtr#ht_2524wt_1344 The same kit with the black tube (Model #5013-BK) can be had for the same price as well. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Forcewinder-XR-86-Up-Evolu tion-Kiehn-CV-40-Harley-XL-BT-Black-Elbow-/3103891 92598?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item48 44a33796&vxp=mtr#ht_1366wt_1110 As opposed to the one specified for the Buell S1: Model #5007  The best price I've found this one for is $243.95 and the one with the black tube is $269.95. Since they are both for bikes with the Kiehn CV40 then it would appear that the only difference in these kits is the little vent line fittings that I don't see that I need, and the fact that I need the longer vent hose from the HD kit to reach where I plan to mount my catch can. So, if anyone bothered to follow this convoluted post, I would really appreciate if someone that knows can confirm my hypothesis about the differences in these kits. If I get the one for the Buell, I think I'll just pay about $50 extra for the privilege of have a few leftover fittings and still needing to go to the parts store for a longer vent hose.  Whereas if I get the HD kit I think I'll get everything I need and nothing more, while saving $50 or so.  I believe that the Buell kit is designed to convert from the stock airbox to the Forcewinder system, but since I don't have the stock system in place I don't need the extra parts, right? (Message edited by Imaposer2 on May 22, 2012) | ||
| Fahren |
Yes, the 5013 is perfectly fine. However, you will also need to rout out a larger area around the bowl vent on the mounting, flat face of the elbow. See Aaron's posts in this thread: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/12072.html | ||
| Fahren |
And FWIW you only need the elbow, the filter, the sock and gasket from the kit. The rest you can find elsewhere (hardware store, auto parts, etc.) I say this because you may be able to crawl the web looking for a used setup, to save some $. | ||
| M2marc |
Theres nothing wrong with the set up that you have. Just get some tubing from Autozone and route to a catch can or to whatever. Save your money and just wait untill a elbow comes up for sale | ||
| Kilroy |
Poser- What is that filter are you currently running, and how is it mounted, if you don't mind me asking? Kilroy | ||
| Blks1l |
I am kind of curious how it is mounted as well. | ||
| Imaposer2 |
Kilroy, I really have no idea. It was on the bike when I bought it a couple of weeks ago. I haven't gotten around to taking it off yet either, so I'm not even sure of the mounting method. I haven't decided for sure if I'll keep it or swap it out for a Forcewinder, but I am leaning heavily toward the swap. At the very least I know that I want to reroute the vent hose into a catch can instead of into the filter as it is now. After a couple of hundred miles last Sat. I had an oil misting on the right side of the engine. Don't want to deal with the mess, so that's getting changed ASAP. I'll take the filter off when my oil catch can is ready to install so that I can plug the current vent line hole. Depending on what I decide, it may not go back on , but at least I can then say how it's mounted. Oh yeah, here's a another pic that shows the current filter from an overall view. [IMG]http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu93/ThePosers/Motorcycles/IMG_3191.jpg[/IMG] (Message edited by Imaposer2 on May 23, 2012) | ||
| Imaposer2 |
Well, that didn't work for some reason. Let me try again...  | ||
| Barrick09 |
I currently have the same filter. there is a 2 inch space that mounts via 3 holes on the carb, then the filter mounts to the spacer via hose clamp. The filter is a cheap filter you can pick up at and auto parts store for $20 bucks. What i did was bought a eco-winder set up from a fellow bueller in the classifieds for $50. all i had to do was take the filter off and mount the elbow and buy a new cone filter. Which does any one know the part number for the k/n cone filter for the eco/forcewinder elbow. | ||
| Dannybuell |
For that kind of money I would buy a Mikuni HSR 42-11 EZ kit and route your breathers to a catch can. The vapors will gum up the carburetor and make the bike run like crap. If you run at higher rpm's for any sustained period the vapors turn into oil and it runs worse. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm =1&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CJQBEBYwAQ&url=http%3A%2F% 2Fwww.mikuni.com%2Fpdf%2Fsbmanual012302.PDF&ei=VvS 8T9XbB4vTiAKJi4GRDg&usg=AFQjCNF6pWWu4gOmdCoMU2GXQn W14EbMQQ&sig2=Q0vhov1ZErUTu4ipLKeM-g | ||
| Fahren |
Mikuni or CV the breathers not dumping back into intake stream is the key, and is what I think OP wants to do. The filter has to be sourced correctly because thw base of the K&N has holes for breather tube or not, depending on model. The Force kit you asked about initially is what you need, along with routing out the vent area. | ||
| Imaposer2 |
Dannybuell, I'm sure that the flat slide carb set-up would be nice and they are reasonably priced too. I may very well try one one day, but that is for a completely different purpose and would do nothing to satisfy my desires for the Forcewinder. I didn't explain my desire for the Forcewinder in this thread because I've already had the pro/con discussion elsewhere and that wasn't the focus of my questions. But, just for clarity, I want the Forcewinder for three reasons: (1) a little more knee room, (2) the dry sock for running in the rain, and last but definitely not least (3) I prefer the look.  I could spend the money on the Mikuni, and probably like it, but I'm not really chasing performance gains at this point. And, I would still need to do something about filtration, so I wouldn't be coming out money ahead. And as Fahren said, I'm already planning to install a catch tank ASAP.  Fahren, Yes, that is exactly my plan and I already have a catch can on the way. And thanks for confirming that the 5013 kit will work for my needs.  | ||
| Kilroy |
Randy PM sent Kilroy | ||
| Jayvee |
The black elbow looks like a good deal. The bike already has the support bracket and the breather bolts, only thing 'missing' would be some kind of catch bottle. These can be almost any kind of plastic bottle. I like the Autozone fuel injection cleaner bottle, long-neck skinny plastic. Stick the rubber hose down it's neck, zip-tie the bottle on the bike somewhere discrete, good to go. | ||
| Imaposer2 |
Yeah, the black one is a good deal compared to the usual price that I've seen, where the black was $25 -$30 more than the polished. I'm just not sure which I would prefer the look of on my bike, pictured above. I don't normally go in for "bling" on a bike, although strangely enough, on this particular bike I have a lot of shiny bits and sorta like it. Black bike, with a good bit of polished aluminum... which would look better, the black powdercoated elbow or the polished aluminum? Pictures? Opinions? (Message edited by Imaposer2 on May 23, 2012) | ||
| Buellistic |
Use the OEM SNORLEL,air cleaner ... Stick a K&N RC-3680 on the end ... For the MEXICAN "CHROME" look paint it with SILVER PAINT ... Save the BIG $$$.$$$ !!! The money "i" saved was put into gas money so that "i" could get 111,354.8 miles as of the last ride ... | ||
| X1_rider |
I powdercoated my elbow flat black (and forks, rear subframe, handlebars, foot controls, cam cover, etc...). Here is a pic.   | ||
| Buellistic |
X1_rider: Sure got you colors balanced !!! Nice VERTICAL LATHE you got there !!! | ||
| Imaposer2 |
Well, that settles it. Looks like perhaps the seller of the black powdercoated Forcewinder may have made an error in his initial listing. He changed the "BIN" price to $219.95 earlier today. Since I was already leaning toward the polished anyway, even for the same $, I definitely don't want to spend an extra 20 bucks for the black. Polished it is! | ||
| Preybird1 |
Reference pictures 1. eco-winder  2. force winder test fit. don't mind the tape.  | ||
| Buellistic |
Preybird1: Very good visual presentation !!! Anyone notice how much the OEM "TUNED" length was shortened when you put the BIG $$$.$$ FORCE on ??? Kept my AIR BOX on so that "i" could ride in the rain ... Isn't that chin fairing a pain the deal with ??? | ||
| Oldog |
'Poser, On the FW kits dont use the aly breather bolts for the carb support, get some banjos from AL ( Custom Chrome or DS ) I need to get back to you on the gaskets to use, to seal them up. ( HD oil plug gasket ) do the catch can and enjoy, BTW I had a silver one that I PC black and like that better | ||
| Imaposer2 |
Oldog, Since my bike already had the stock aribox removed and an aftermarket filter installed, it already has the carb support bolted to the heads with what appears to be chromed steel banjo bolts. If you don't mind, take a look at the first picture in this thread and let me know if you see any problem with just swapping that filter for the FW, and re-routing the vent hose, that you can see in the lower right, into a catch can instead of into the intake as it is now. I've seen similar set-ups on quite a few HD engines so I'm assuming this will work ok...  The polished vs. black decision was made by the seller of the black one when he changed his BIN price. Even for even money I was already leaning toward the polished anyway, so it just made the decision easier for me when the price jumped up $20 for the black. I placed my order this morning. Beullistic, I'm sure you're right about the tuned length. I know that it is dependent on several factors such as cam timing and such, but in very general terms, the longer intake runner "tuned" length is better for lower RPM power and torque, whereas shortening them will tend to move the powerband up the RPM range a bit. So, when Buell engine designers spec'd the stock intake length, they did so with consideration of other engine design factors such as valve timing, valve size, port size and shape, and a whole host of other factors that affects volumetric efficiency of the engine at the desired operating RPM range. Since the strong suit of these engines is really more in the low RPM grunt and midrange power, the longer intake tract length makes a lot of sense and Eric Buell was wise enough to use the engine for what it did best. Of course, as is most often the case, when people start modifying an engine for racing, on of the first pursuits is more HP through higher RPM. And while you can achieve more peak HP in this way, you often lose the everyday street drive-ability that makes these engines so sweet to use as a sporty street machine. With that said, I'm not sure if it would be noticeable anywhere outside of a dyno room. And in my case, the FW will provide a longer intake track than the filter that I have on the bike now. And I'm with you on retaining the stock airbox. If this were to be my "everyday" year round, do it all bike, then I'd most likely do the same. But, for me, the S1 is just more of a secondary bike that will primarily be for shorter, spirited rides on a pretty Sat. or Sun. If setting out on a day that wet and nasty, or for a multi-day trip where I'm likely to see protracted periods of rain, I'll take my R1150GS. It is much more comfortable, has heated grips, is set up for my heated jacket liner, and luggage capacity. For the wet weather, I also selected its tires partly for their wet weather traction, and the bike also has ABS which I do like for slippery conditions. PLUS, the GS has absolutely NO polished aluminum to worry about getting water spots on. My GS is my "ride it often, wash it seldom" bike that I just ride and not worry about, whereas the S1 is more my "Pretty Sunday afternoon, hotrod, playtoy" bike. It's the only bike that I've ever owned that I was willing to make concessions in utility or performance strictly for aesthetic considerations. But, to be honest, as much as I do enjoy riding the S1, I can't say that I don't enjoy LOOKING at it just as much! So, if for no other reason that the fact that I like the looks better, I chose to go with the polished Forcewinder. (Message edited by Imaposer2 on May 24, 2012) | ||
| Imaposer2 |
Fahren, I looked at the link that you gave me, and I had seen that before, on the NRHS site I believe, but looking at the pictures of the old vs. new FW mounting flange it's sorta hard to tell exactly how the new one needs to be modified. Th two look very different, not only in the size of the vent area but also the shape and contour of that area. It looks as though they were once blended smoothly into the plenum, whereas the new one looks to be much more abrupt with no real transition. Is there a picture of a new one that has had this modification done to it? How critical is the exact shape of the modified area? Is it just a matter of making it larger or is the contour important? Just trying to get this figured out so I know what needs to be done when mine arrives.  | ||
| Buellistic |
Imaposer2: "i" go for the JEWISH TUNING, everything that is obtainable for nothing ... Tuning for where you ride keeps it reliable for the long ride ... It is the "DEVIL IN THE DETAILS" that cause's the crossing at 5252 to increase on a STOCK OEM off the showroom floor engine ... | ||
| Analbeard |
A lot of force winders are the same filter, sock and elbow, its the adapter that is needed to match to your bike. I bought a bundle in their boxes and the elbows are drilled to match the cv carb even the Kawasaki ones,its just the adapter it seems that is different. This may widen your choice of searching for one. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Somewhere on here I posted a pic of the vent I opened up on a new model Forcewinder. It's been a few year so I may have an easier time finding it on my old computer. I'll put up a link, or the image when I find it. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
I used these pages as my pattern, even printed a copy of the correct part so I had a better idea of the scale. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/11192.html?1113852451 | ||
| Imaposer2 |
Thanks for the input, Littlebuggles. I have looked at and played around with those images myself in an attempt to get a better perspective. I think that once my FW arrives I'll print a re-sized copy of that pic to use as a reference. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Okay, finally had time to dig in and find those old pics. Here's the FW I modified, I attempted to draw a white line to illustrate how the original vent was just slotted. I had to reduce the file size a bit to post this so if you want a full sized image shoot me a pm and I'll forward it to you, now that I know where to find the file I'll be quicker.  I used a Dremmel type tool, with a medium sized ball cutter, it did a pretty good job. Make sure you scribe in some lines so you have a good starting point. The mod is so the float bowl doesn't build a vacuum and not flow sufficient gas in the carb'd bikes. I don't think it's necessary on the fi bikes. Some random notes for you: I like the current intake on your bike. Probably doesn't perform well in the rain, so not practical for a bike that's ridden a lot. Kinda short intake track (tract?) too. but it looks cool and probably flows as much air as your bike could ask for. The rain sock for the FW will impede air flow, so don't run it all the time. I did a track day with it, and one without and there was a noticeable difference in performance. -Mike |
