| Author | Message | ||
     Desotonorsocal |
Well guys I *think* I may have figured this one out but since I'm new to Buells and the V-Twin, I wanted to confirm my suspicions- It's a long story but I'll try to be brief; a little back-story so potentially other stuff can be ruled out: Purchased the bike from my Godfather a few months back. The guy has 30+ years with motorcycles (racing,etc) and is ultra-anal about maintaining vehicles. Most anything/everything people are doing (changing mounts, breather kit, etc) to make the bike more reliable he's already done to it. Okay so last week the bike begins to Blap Blap and jerk and buck and die in the fast lane (about 85mph) and I coast it off the freeway. Restart is @ about 60%+ throttle to keep it running just enough to get it 1/4 mile down the freeway into a parking lot. Start FAST- F & A are good to go, front plug's collapsed on itself. (Also the plug is BLACK with oil. Back plug is fine.) No way to get a new one in the area so I bend the electrode back out, carb cleaner it, and go on my way. (Bike runs great at this point.) Plan on some PM work but this is my only transportation at the moment. 2 days later it does the same thing; go home and go straight to the plug. Both plugs are fine though white (lean right?). Put them back in and go for a ride; no issues. Now, I had recently purchased a horseshoe breather kit because one of the banjo bolts had vibrated loose (gone) and to 'clean up' the breather 'conversion' my godfather had done. His was completely functional but not 'pretty'. (my mistake to even mess with it.) After seeing the front blackened plug and reading about the potential hazard of trying to run the oil mist up OVER the carb (vice gravity-fed like it was) I put it back to how it was after the 2nd time the bike bucked and died. (Could explain why there was no oil on the plug the 2nd time?) As timing would have it, I decided TODAY to re-wrap my exhaust pipes. In the process it became clear to me that the front portion of my headers seemed 'lose' and upon a moderate amount of push/pulling near the front cylinder I can move that pipe very easily. Soooo... Did I answer my own question and is it time for new header gaskets? Did that more than likely cause the plug collapse (?!?) and the intermittent dying? If so, couple of questions: 1.) Can I replace just that front gasket so I don't completely jack up my averagely-performed but time-consuming wrap job? 2.) Where do I purchase the gaskets and what are the part numbers? 3.) To avoid these questions in the future, I have the Buell manual but couldn't find anything on the exhaust gaskets. I also have a performance HD catalog with tons of part numbers (from the late-90's if I remember) so if you guys tell me that's a good reference book, I'll dig it up. Apologies for being long-winded, but I write a lot of descriptive documents for a living so yes, this actually IS brief for me. Oh, and if there are any OC (California) Buellers out there interested in a free beer, wing, whatever @ Cook's, Hell's Kitchen or elsewhere, let me know. Always looking for a fun ride with new people and right now I'm alongside Beemers & Suzukis. (I'd like to 'dirty up' my rider-base a bit, lol.) Thanks again! -DeSoto | ||
| Buellistic |
EXHAUST SYSTEM Class 101,just PM me for a copy ... | ||
| Desotonorsocal |
PM'd. Thanks in advance! | ||
| Desotonorsocal |
Well, don't think it's the exhaust now... Replaced the exhaust gaskets at the heads, rode about 30 miles round-trip freeway and city with no issue until the last 1/4 mile home. Rolled on the throttle at around 3500RPM and immediately it sounded like the whole engine fell apart, ticking and pinging and popping, sputtering then death. At 30k miles, lame. Tried to restart it and it *will*, but it sounds like I dropped 5 dollars in change into the engine (and not in that V8 "good" way) so I'd guess she's kaput. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Sorry to hear it. Sounds like what Preybird1 had happen when he dropped an exhaust valve on his X1. Though I can't say anything regarding the header gasket(s) Let us know what you find. Thanks, and welcome to badweb. | ||
| Buell_bert |
This is weird. Front plug collapsed? What the heck? As to the other issues I have had some really crazy things happen with engines and some I did diagnose and others that I never did. The plug I don't know. But if you dropped a valve it will not work like it was. A dropped valve will not go a mile as it will be consistant but an electrical connection will cause havoc. Especially if it is intermitant. I had a bad connection on one of mine going to the coil and it would belch and fart then run like a train then do it again. It ended up being a loose connection to the coil but yours maybe different. I wish you all the luck and PLEASE keep us informed. | ||
| Buell_bert |
OH and the breather that runs over the top? I had one and never had a problem with it. | ||
| Captainkirk |
I don't get what you mean; "front plug's collapsed on itself." Electrode bent? Porcelain cracked or broken? The only things I know will do that is physical interference or detonation. You sure something isn't rattling around on top of that piston? Got a scope available? I'd be looking. Also, a compression test-both leakdown and cranking (plugs out, throttle wide open)will give you a heads-up on a valve problem. Hard for me to distance-troubleshoot-any more details you can give? | ||
| Desotonorsocal |
So here's the latest, as well as a little clarity- Spent some time with an old-timer I commissioned from craigslist. (Okay, maybe not an 'old timer' but at 65, he's nearly twice my age.) 'E' for effort on his part, coming out to AV late in the evening, reading through the manual with me, pulling plugs, etc etc. $80 bucks later he told me what I already feared; it's gotta' come apart. A V-Twin specific engine guy he's NOT (as he confessed before coming by) but he DOES know engines, and the stories he had (Jag fuelie setup on a Ford 250 w/custom welded manifold?!? I mean who even ATTEMPTS something like that?!) were well worth the $$$, and to be honest, kinda looked like he could use it. @Captain - Foreign obstruction is exactly what I/we were thinking but from WHAT?!? The electrode bent to the point of contact TWICE, both on very short runs, and both times when I rolled the throttle pretty hard. This last time, however (engine actually pulled this stunt on me 3 times in a week, but the plug only bent on 2 of those times), I went ahead and installed new exhaust gaskets (I could push/pull the cylinder-end of the headers with my hands from the toasted gaskets!), cleaned and gapped the plugs, but no love. Engine runs/idles smooth, so valves HAVE to be good; definitely solid fuel/air/spark going on. She starts easy, and runs pretty much how she has the last 800+ miles (2 months). The front cylinder (only 90% sure that's where the sound is coming from now) is just making a God-awful ruckus, the likes of which tells me not to run it more than 10 seconds or so (for new guy diagnoses only) and DEFINITELY no riding. So that leaves what? Lifters seem unlikely (as I understand it they're hydraulic in the '00's+), a piston and/or connecting rod is out for obvious reasons, a bent pushrod is a *slight* possibility but again, if the lifters are hydraulic, that bend would have to be pretty severe to offset the tolerance there. A bent, shifted or otherwise defiled rocker seems a potential culprit. Not sure if they're forged or cast, but if the latter, maybe that's where the debris came from as well? There's just not too many areas that the metallic alien part could have came from. I've never had my air cleaner off while riding, nor dropped anything NEAR the carb intake, so I'm down to (shudder) whatever is in there coming from a piece of the engine itself... Oh and no, the plug was clean; no cracking or porcelain loss. First time it bent it was covered in black oil (that's when I got paranoid about the breather setup and went back to straight-down hoses and ditched the horseshoe setup. Uglier and tighter in that area, but I was skurred!) however the 2nd time and every subsequent time I've checked the plugs they're white as a ghost. So I guess AFTER I figure out the root of the phantom ping pinging, I'll have to fatten up the carb quite a bit as well...  Thanks for listening guys; I'm kind of long-winded like that, but hopefully I painted a vivid enough word picture to give you an idea of what's going on. Fingers-crossed that my Leasing office lady will come through on that garage for me soon and I'll start pulling this thing apart. From the looks of things, I can pull the tank, move some wires and access the top of cylinder one from on high without removing the motor. Correct me if I'm wrong here... No love for the Long Beach Motorcycle Show now, Damn. R. Lee Ermey (Semper Fi!), new Victorys, and God knows what else I'll be missing! -D | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Suggest checking your intake track (or is it tract?) for missing bits from the carb as it's unlikely any thing made it in past the air cleaner: A few years ago I had one of the two small button head screws that holds the front of the stock intake to the motor mount shake loose. At one point it stuck in the butterfly on the carb and I was rapidly accelerating as I got on the freeway. So I grabbed the clutch when I realized I was riding a bike that wanted to keep on accelerating. Shut it down (it was bouncing off the rev limiter) as I coasted to the side of the road and then rolled the throttle on/off a few times... this unstuck the screw, and it must have dropped to the inside of the intake manifold. Since I didn't realize what had just happened but having a bad feeling about the whole affair (thinking I maybe had a throttle cable that was gonna need to be replaced) I started the bike back up and turned it back around at the next off ramp. As I approached my place the screw vibrated into the front jug, making a terrible ruckus as it worked it's way past the intake valve. Shut it down and coasted in a bit and pushed it the last 60 feet or so into the garage. Bent valve, bunged up head and a screw print in the top of the front piston. You'll want to use a ratcheting tie down under the engine to the frame (after you remove the tank), or a bottle jack with a small block to keep from punching it through the bottom of the case in order to pull the front head. But yeah, you can pull the rocker box cover and start the work without having to remove the engine. | ||
| Desotonorsocal |
Thanks for the scoop (and the story!). What's a ratcheting tie down under the engine and the bottle jack for? To keep things steady when I'm cranking on the head? Well, guess I'll figure it out when/if I get to it, lol. Well if my story is similar to yours, I'd hope I can pull the rocker box, sift around and find the culprit, but chances are I AM going to have to pull the whole head, eh? :/ | ||
| Littlebuggles |
If a valve spring let go or something of the sort you'll certainly see that when you get the rocker box cover off, if not you'll need to dig deeper, that will require the jack, strap, or something to support the engine while you have the head pulled to take a gander inside the cylinder. Your main motor mount is the two bolts passing through the motor mount into the head, you'll most likely have to pull that to get a good look at what is taking place... unless you can borrow a scope and take a peek inside the cylinder through the spark plug hole. | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Oh, and you're welcome for the story, I learned a number of interesting things: Don't panic, my clutch is my friend, and rattling/buzzing sounds inside my airbox are bad and REALLY should be looked into before it's too late. Top end rebuild, with a replacement piston was kind of pricey, especially because I paid the shop to do it. | ||
| M2marc |
Are you sure you Godfather didnt do any motor mods. How does a bike go from anally maintained to flat out busted in a few months? Have you asked him for his advice on the issue? I know that doesnt help the problem but they are some looming questions. | ||
| Harleyelf |
Got compressed air? If there's a screw or nut bouncing around above your front piston you might be able to take the exhaust header off, rotate the engine until the exhaust valve is open, and blow the foreign object out. Take the plugs out, too, both to make the engine easier to rotate and to give the air a clean in-and-out path through the combustion chamber. Intermittent collapsing electrode says foreign object to me. God-awful ruckus but it runs says bent valve or push rod. | ||
| Two_seasons |
I agree with foreign object in the jug. I'd bet donuts you lost a screw on the butterfly ass'y and it worked it's way to the jug. | ||
| Desotonorsocal |
@M2Marc- Been trying to get a hold of him but he's been out racing, lol. To clarify, he's the type of guy that does improvements for safety, reliability, serviceability, and performance. The 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it sort' (in that he won't replace a perfectly fine stock part if it functions as well or better than aftermarket just so he can put something on the bike.) He also doesn't 'jerry-rig' stuff. (Perfect example that I mentioned earlier is that there are SO many small things done to this bike that are mentioned on BadWeb that were either TSB or reliability/serviceability-related. The newer mounts, exhaust, etc. I've been going through the site making sure I have the 'BEST' stock or replacement recommended part and it seems he already did most/all of that.) Now, that being said, he DOES love his performance, and if he's modified something internally it's more than likely been a proven performance-gainer, but only if he can still ride the *shit* out of it, lol. I'll need to confirm with him on that. He spent about 2 hours with me front to rear going over everything that's been done, replaced, and/or to look out for (mount bolts loosening, maintenance schedule, proper tightening (loosening, lol) of belt, real specs vs. manual specs, etc.) so I trust him in that regard. I KNOW there were some periods that this thing had been sitting probably longer than it should. (always garaged though) He's got too many vehicles for that not to be the case. I'm not sure if that could be anything but from my experience with cars, going from about 40+/- miles a month the last 5 years, to 800+ miles the last 2 MONTHS, it stands to reason that s**t's going to take a crap. Usually gasket stuff though. So long story long, yessir, I'll definitely be asking him about that! @Little- If it's a valve spring, could it still potentially idle as well as it does? Just curious. I mean, even when I rolled the throttle lightly (slow & below 2k) when I was having old-timer listen to it, there wasn't a hiccup or anything; of course no load either. @Harleyelf - Thanks man, and I will def. pick up a can or two before I go for it. No scope so I'm out on that one. I'd assume fishing w/magnet is out since so much of this stuff internally isn't magnetic, but again, before I pull the head, it's certainly worth the try right? lol. What's the best way to rotate the engine if I can't see the front piston? Roll it back in gear til I'm loaded up? (Is that front or back cylinder @ TDC though?) @Two- If I lost a screw, would I notice it when I pulled the cleaner and inspected the carb, or is this something more internal that I might not see? I don't know what kind of carb I have, but it "floats" in between the two cylinders. (Again I don't know bike motors) I *guess* this is normal as it feels like it's being suspended from a gasket, vice being screwed down to the intake like on our 4-wheeled counterparts. Haven't looked closely but I'd assume (with manual in-hand) that it can't be difficult to pull the carb and get a slight visual down the Y-manifold.... Thanks again everyone for the comments. The online trouble-shooting is *mostly* shot in the dark stuff I realize, but once I've got the spot to get my hands dirty, I'll definitely refer to this thread as a good "what to look for" guide. Without it, I might have just popped the top, not 'seen' anything obvious, and took it to the nearest stealership with their 30-day wait-! -D | ||
| Two_seasons |
You'll have to pull the carb when you pull the jug. Until then, don't start it. I've not had that personal experience, but I've read on BadWeb that this has occurred. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
Buggles, Had a similar incident happen a few years back. It was an 02 X1, it sucked in one of the snorkel hold down bolts. I head, one piston, 1 exhaust push rod and one top end gasket set. One bad Saturday afternoon..... | ||
| Buellistic |
SealsAll glue(buy at Ace Hardware) on the screw threads prevents that ... | ||
| Captainkirk |
I agree with everything mentioned so far, except: Don't resign yourself to pulling the head just yet. True, if a bolt or screw has been pinging around like the inside of a pinball machine, you will most certainly have damage to the aluminum bits. But....you SHOULD be able to see this. Pull the plug and use a penlight or flexible shaft light to see down at the piston dome. If anything metal has been pinging around, it should be immediately evident. My point? I've seen severe detonation do the same thing to spark plugs. Have you checked for induction leaks, etc? You are correct in you assumption that the carb is "floating"...the only thing securing it physically is the breather bolt bracket. As for the valve spring/valve thing, I doubt it. Valves will do damage to far more things before they get to the spark plug. | ||
| Buellistic |
What happened to checking the timing !!! | ||
| Desotonorsocal |
Lol, timing was mentioned by a couple of (non-web) people, but with all the noise, I guess at some point I just jumped passed that. (That and the fact that it *sounds* at least like it's only cylinder 1 making the rukus.) I'll back-up a bit before going all-out on the engine tear-down. I've never checked timing on a bike, but I'd assume it's somewhere in the manual, so I'll do that first sometime today. Again, thanks for all the input & support guys! | ||
| Captainkirk |
I would have suggested timing, but seeing as how the rear cylinder is running fine, don't see how that could be an issue. Timing wouldn't affect a spark plug electrode unless you had preignition & detonation going on....in which case, both cylinders would be acting up. | ||
| Desotonorsocal |
All good points. And checking timing on this thing looks to require special tools and is a pain, lol. Def not like a car! Hoping to get on this the second I get a garage OR find a trustworthy local mechanic! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Been a long time since I have done it, but I didn't think static timing on an M2 isn't bad. In theory you need a couple rivits for the timing cover, but you can avoid that by using a tap and stainless screws. Use an allen wrench to pull a case plug to see the mark on the crank, pop off the timing cover (drill out the original factory rivits), mark the plate so you know where it was, and put a volt meter on the crank position sensor. Very sensitive adjustment though... I think that was all there was too it. | ||
| Harleyelf |
If you pull the exhaust header off you can see the valve through the port when the valve opens. Plugs out, high gear, rotate wheel forward until valve opens. Alternatively, remove rocker cover and watch rocker arm while rotating motor. That "floating" carburetor - does it move when you shake it? There must be some kind of brace holding the carburetor to the head or your seals have to do the mechanical work of holding the carburetor in place. Computer compressed air is not strong enough to blast loose parts out, see if you can borrow a compressor or visit a shop with one for long enough to do this. | ||
| Captainkirk |
Another thing to check; if your VOES switch is broken, unhooked, or disconnected, your timing will not advance when it should, causing.....yep. Detonation. Easy to check once you pull the tank: simply hook an ohmmeter to it, stick the little rubber tube on the side of the switch in your mouth and apply suction. If the meter shows continuity with suction applied, the switch is at least working. (There is a little black magic involved with setting them, but we'll save that for later) Just make sure it's hooked up & makes and breaks for now. Are you seeing this problem on the rear spark plug at all? | ||
| Cyclonecharlie |
Looks like if there is something floating around inside the front cyl. there should be alot of alum. flakes showing up on the front spark plug. Any sign of that? | ||
| Desotonorsocal |
Happy New Year all- So here's the update: Dropped it off with Jimmy's V-Twin, a guy that was recommended by another friend of mine. He called me today with the bad news. Front cylinder is in bits, as are the rings. He says there's probably bottom-end damage (basically every scenario he painted before looking at the bike suggested a complete rebuild as he says the V-Twins pretty much go to shit when anything happens to them. That's what I got out of his conversation anyway; always bottom-end bearing damage, etc.) so a complete re-build is in order. About $4-$6k. Not nearly worth it for a $1500 bike so I'm kind of stuck now. Meanwhile my Godfather (PO) told me I must have been missing shifts (piston to valves) so apparently I did this myself. I know that damn clutch was getting stiff and it was definitely harder to shift (and I DID miss a few, whoops) but at fairly low RPM's. Anyway, next step for me will be to search the forums for either some sort of crate motor solution (heard those don't really exist for a '00 Sportster) or sell the thing. I've looked through the manual and my Sportster Performance book and it's clear that I can't afford the tools necessary to rebuild it myself, and the proposition of going back and forth to machine shops weekend after weekend is simply not appealing to me. Bought the bike to ride, lol. A little venting here, yes, but kicking myself in the rear for missing some import opportunities that *may* have kept me on the road... Then again, I would have just sold the import bike and bought a Buell anyway, lmao! Oh, I guess a 3rd option is to just buy a newer Buell huh? Seems like for the same $4k I can get a lot of nice bike for the bread! thanks for all the assist guys; RIP Cyclone.... | ||
| Jim2 |
Sorry to hear the bad news DeSoto. | ||
| Desotonorsocal |
So it's time to spin a negative into a positive. Here's the bad news: The front piston somehow had a piece broken off, and ring pieces melted to the piston. Ouch. NO cylinder scoring or damage, and everything else looks pretty much beautiful. (I mentioned before I could turn it over and run it with no problems other than the noise. Never rode it like that though.) So I'm leaning toward the Axtell kit found here: http://www.nrhsperformance.com/ekitbuell1200.shtml Not sure which one exactly; probably the first; I don't want to modify the case atm, plus I want to get on the street asap. I already have a Mikuni carb ready to go so wth, right? That being said, I've got some parts I'm going to have to 'part' with (ahem) and was wondering where the best place to post that would be? I'll let everyone know when the beast is back on the road, what I've done with it, and any performance differences. For the record, I already had a larger rear rim, mikuni carb, Buell racing ignition. I'm going to re-use the carb & ignition, do the rebuild, then (hopefully) find a local guy in OC for some good dyno work. My Godfather in Nor Cal will be receiving some of the pieces (heads, etc.) for machine shop work so I know it's done right. End goal is hopefully close to triple digit HP & Torque with rock-solid reliability. (Like CA-to-Colorado.) Thoughts/comments are always appreciated, and yes, I'm looking to pull this off on a turbo budget. Just got a garage in my apartment complex (woohoo!) so I'll be doing a lot of this myself. Hopefully I won't get too many noise complaints. (Boo.) Thanks guys for all the input, suggestions, etc on all of this.  |
