| Author | Message | ||
     X1_rider |
After trying 3 Oxygen sensors, putting 2 new injectors in, new head temperature sensor, flashing the ECM with the Race ECM program, testing the wiring resistance, O2 sensor ground, buying a Race ECM from Erik Buell Racing, trying 2 more Race ECM eeproms from xopti, I came to one conclusion. My 2002 X1W runs well only with the O2 sensor disconnected. I tried checking off the "open loop learn enable" function, locking the low AFV limit to 100% (it still goes down to 95%), nothing worked, I get sputtering and spitting through the intake at a constant load (ie. cruising) between 2500-3500RPM. The AFV goes down to the 70% range at time, and my spark plugs are bone white (and the inside of my right leg is getting pretty crispy). I ••••••• give up. With the O2 sensor disconnected, the bike runs just fine, even in the 2500-3500RPM range and my plugs are dark, perhaps even a tiny bit on the rich side (which I'd rather have than the snow white ones I've been seeing for the last 2 weeks). My question is, is there any risk of engine damage running with the O2 sensor disconnected, or is there a way to "electronically" silence it so I don't have to look at that stupid check engine light. If there is a risk of damage, my next step is putting my PowerCommander III back on, it ran just fine with it. Thanks in advance for any information. (Message edited by x1_rider on July 22, 2010) | ||
| Williep13 |
Im no expert but I cant run my 01 X1 with the O2 sensor hooked up either, granted I have been having problems with it recently. As long as it isn't running lean I don't know why there would be any issues. | ||
| X1_rider |
When you say you've been having problems, what kind of problems are they? edit: never mind, I just saw your thread, interesting (Message edited by x1_rider on July 22, 2010) | ||
| X1_rider |
I took a long hard look at ECM Spy yesterday and it seems like I may have a few options. 1. Just disconnect the sensor and ignore the check engine light. 2. Disconnect the sensor and check off the boxes related to the O2 sensor in the diagnostics section of ECM Spy, therefore the CEL will stay off.  3. Turn the O2 sensor off by checking out this box in the diagnostics section (and leaving the sensor plugged).  4. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the O2 sensor monitored the AFR at WOT and added some fuel if it became lean at WOT, therefore it may be a good idea to keep it in the loop. I could raise the O2 sensor active RPM to about 3700 in the ECM config section, so the O2 sensor would become active outside of my trouble area (2500-3500RPM).  5. This one would require some trial and error. I could raise the voltage where the sensor detects a rich mixture, therefore the sensor would be less "sensitive" and would stop trying to dangerously lower my AFV across the whole map and it would still be active in case of a lean condition. I guess I would have to try different voltages until it stops spitting through the intake and the AFV remains at 100%.  Have any of you guys played around with those values? Any suggestions? Thanks | ||
| Williep13 |
Once again i'm no expert but just my two cents. I have played with the values a little and it never seems to do anything, its like the ecm always goes back to default on these. As far as the engine light my bike doesn't give a fault for the O2 sensor being unhooked. Does it read any other faults? | ||
| X1_rider |
No, the only fault code I get is the non-functional O2 sensor. | ||
| Hootowl |
I see there is a setting for minimum TP for O2 activation. I'm assuming TP is throttle position. Couldn't you set that to 75 or so? That would ensure the O2 is only read at WOT, or close to it. | ||
| X1_rider |
@Hootowl True, that would be another option. And I doubt 75% throttle, in any gear, would put me in the 2500-3500 RPM range. (Message edited by x1_rider on July 23, 2010) | ||
| Hootowl |
Is that a % or an angle? I'm betting that the range is 0-90 not 0-100, so 75 would be 15 degrees from WOT, or 90 degrees on the TPS. | ||
| Kalali |
I know you are sick and tired of throwing parts at the bike but all the options you listed only mask the root cause of the problem. The fact is there are a lot of X1s out there (including mine) which run just fine without any changes to the O2 related settings. With that been said, keep in mind that many of the values you mentioned in your options can not be changed from those screens. You need to literally go into the EEPROM table(s) and make the changes directly in the EEPROM file. That requires that you know exactly (I mean really exactly) what value corresponds to which setting on the screens. You need a document telling you the mapping. That is probably why Williep13 was not able to make the changes. Then again, I suspect if your plugs look fine and the engine temperature is within reason and the bike is running fine, then I would simply turn the O2 sensor off using the ECMSPY. Leave everything else as is. | ||
| Hootowl |
EFI is great. It does exactly what you tell it to do. EFI sucks. It does exactly what you tell it to do. | ||
| X1_rider |
@Kalali, you're right, I'm getting fed up with that stuff. What head temperature are you guys getting, I'll log a ride, see what temp. I'm getting, check out the plugs and if everything is fine, I'll just turn the sensor off, screw that. | ||
| Kalali |
"What head temperature are you guys getting" The highest temp I've seen is ~170C but I hardly ever get stuck in stop n go traffic. One other thing. On your ECM Config screen, try enabling the Idle Closed Loop (check the box) and disable the Open Loop Learn (uncheck the box). My X1 runs better with those settings. Just give it a try before disabling the O2 sensor. | ||
| Koz5150 |
What's an O2 sensor (from a happy M2 owner)? | ||
| Hootowl |
O2 sensor: 1. A device that helps the ECM learn about the mixture level at a given operating condition. 2. A device which makes DDFI owners learn about ways to deal with the definition above. | ||
| Kalali |
Well, you may be laughing at those of us with FI but being able to blow up your motor using a keyboard is priceless!! | ||
| X1_rider |
@Kalali, I just checked my plugs after a ride with the sensor unplugged, both front and rear are really nice tan color, no sign of overheating. I'll try putting the sensor off and maybe experiment with other settings later when I feel like it again. @Hootowl, your O2 sensor definition is hilarious. I find it a bit sad that we have to find a way to cheat sensors to get our bike running well (well mine anyway). But like my friends say "if you want your bike to work like a stock one, leave it stock" | ||
| Kalali |
I'm wondering if something got messed up during the installation/removal of the Power Commander?! There is got to be a logical explanation for your symptoms (and the cure). May be I just generally hate workarounds... Whatever works, I guess. | ||
| Williep13 |
Wish my bike was still stock  | ||
| X1_rider |
I thought my stock ecm was toast due to the powercommander, but I did try another ecm (the ebr race ecm) and it did the same thing. I've read a few times that the force exhaust is hard to tune and only starts coming alive at higher rpm's. Perhaps at the closed loop rpm there is a lot of reversion or whatever else going on which is interpreted by the ecm as a rich mixture, therefore the excessive leaning. Interesting point, when shutting off the O2 sensor using ecm spy, the check engine light still comes on, I canceled the O2 sensor CEL using ECM spy. | ||
| Firemanjim |
95 is within acceptable range, but that 70% means that in that area of learned fuel you are 30% rich, that is why your bike will surge etc, and then the ecm pulls fuel from everywhere to compensate,thus your white plugs as it will be 30 % leaner. (Message edited by firemanjim on July 24, 2010) | ||
| X1_rider |
FMJ, from your experience tuning Buells, is it possible that the Force exhaust due to its properties will screw up the sensor, making the ECM think it's too rich, therefore pulling fuel from the entire map. It happens very fast too, the bike would start sputtering well within 1/2 mile. | ||
| Dave_02_1200 |
Fuel injection is great when everything is working. My 2001 S3T has a race kit (pipe,ecm, air filter) and runs the way it should. My 2002 M2 has the same pipe and air filter as the S3T but it has a Mikuni HSR 42 carb. The M2 with a carb runs every bit as well as the injected S3T. All this is making me think that if my S3T fuel injection malfunctions in the future, I might be getting out the electrical tape to cover the electrical leads for the fuel injection and buying another Mikuni. | ||
| Terrycoxusa |
I like my fuel injection on my 99S3. The bike had the Power Commander on it when I bought it, and ran crappy. I took it off, put in a stock O2 sensor, and it has run perfectly for the past 6 months. It has a force sidewinder and kerker exhaust. Regarding carburetors, they gum up, especially the idle circuits, they wear out, and if you try tuning them, you better know what you're doing. I have ECM spy but have not made any changes to the mapping, just got it to check codes and settings. | ||
| Kalali |
"...and then the ecm pulls fuel from everywhere to compensate,..." FMJ is right on. As an experiment, take some fuel away from the cells in the Closed Loop area (front and rear) and leave other areas intact. Do it in increments of 5% and see how the bike reacts. You will see the "learned area" on the map when you set the display option, on the bottom of the screen, right ride, labeled CL and LCL. First focus on the area with the red borderline (LCL). If you see some improvement, then move to the area with the black borderline (CL) until you get it dialed in. Needless to say, save your EEPROM and your maps before you embark on this experiment. In my opinion, regardless of the any oddities associated with the Force, you should still be able to fine tune the mixture to make it work for you. This is the beauty of the FI combined with ECMSPY. Of course it could be a tedious process without a dyno. | ||
| X1_rider |
I plan on playing around with it when I have more time. I contacted Mike Cobb from Xopti and he got me to download TunerProRT so I can log the bike and send him the file to help me fine tune. For now I turned the sensor off and shut the check engine light regarding the sensor and it works really well. The plugs look nice, maybe a tiny bit on the rich side but that's OK for now. | ||
| Kalali |
"..download TunerProRT so I can log the bike.." Datalogging is also a great way to see how the bike is doing during actual ride. I just wasn't sure how familiar you were with the process. Metalog Viewer program is another way to do the logging but apparently TunerProRT is more powerful. I have yet to try it out... |
