| Author | Message | ||
     Randymoser |
Hi guys, I have a ’97 Cyclone. I decided to bleed the brakes and found the old master clogged with gunk. I started bleeding using a speed bleeder, but got nothing. I undid the line, put my finger against the master, and found NO pressure whatsoever. Ok. So I bought a used master cylinder on Ebay. Problem is it’s for a 2001 M2. I didn’t think anything about it, but the bore is different. Hehehe. Ok, I put it all back together and tried bleeding and got nothing. Or more than before, but still not much. Before I begin rebuilding the caliper – purchase the kit from American Sportbike – can anyone tell me if this could be because I now have a mismatched master cylinder? The other point: I put the lid on the master and had the bleeder attached at around 15lbs and saw it going down slowly until it reached zero. Is this proof that I have a leak in one of the seals in the caliper or not? Funny thing is that bleed brakes is one of the things I feel reasonably comfortable doing… Thanks! Randy | ||
| Phelan |
I think it's caliper-related, but I'm no expert, and I'm biased, because I believe these Brembo calipers are a PITA, like a red-headed stepchild (just kidding of course; I'm a redhead stepchild myself). | ||
| Randymoser |
Ah, this is the front caliper -- The PM 6p unit. BUT it's the back that started all this, since it looks like week-old chicken fat so I got it into my head that I'd change all the fluids... Now I'm thinking that after the front is sorted I'll just top off the rear... At least until I can afford to rebuild it. R. | ||
| F_skinner |
Randymoser, not sure from your post but did you rebuild the caliper yet? If not I highly suggest you do that with the American Sport Bike kit. Take the caliper apart and soak both sides of the caliper in denatured alcohol over night then gently pull the pistons out. Carefully pull the rubber washers (use something sharp but be careful not to gouge anything and replace the rubber. Use a touch of brake fluid on the rubber before you put the pistons back in. Also make sure you clean the caliper very well before reassembling. I too have bought a couple of calipers off of ebay and have had to rebuild each one of them. Frank | ||
| Ratbuell |
You can also get a rebuild kit for the (CORRECT!! Keep the right one on the bike!) master cylinder. Rebuild 'em both (caliper and m/c), blow out the line and flush it seperately from the other components, install it back in place using NEW crush washers (4 of 'em). Should be just fine. | ||
| Randymoser |
Aye, I guess I'll order the kit(s). (Caliper and both master cylinders, just in case) The manual seems a bit thin on how to actually get the pistons out -- do I really need a special too? -- so I guess I'll hit y'all up later for that... Two small problems: 1) Al doesn't seem to sell a rebuild kit for the 5/8 original master and 2) The cap says DOT 4 but the manual says DOT 5. I'm sure this is answered in the archives somewhere, but if anyone can give me a quick answer I'd appreciate it. Thanks! Randy | ||
| Randymoser |
Hehehe. Ok, so I bought a rebuild kit for the caliper and the 1/2" Master, since American Sport Bike didn't have one for the 3/8". Rebuilding the caliper was easy after I soaked it overnight. I tore the little rubber stopped on the master kit, then tore the one on the original 1/2" master, too... so I went back to the original, took it apart, cleaned it out, got new crush washers and put it back together. Bled it for HOURS using a speed bleeder and then just doing it the old way, with a tube. Nothing. Now assuming I got the caliper right -- and there was very little to get wrong with it -- I guess I'm back at the master. This is easily the most frustrating brake job I've done. So who else besides Al sells Buell (Nissin) rebuild kits? My Honda place wanted $45 for one and Al sold me the 1/2" kit for around $12, I think. Any other ideas? Randy | ||
| Tdman77 |
"Nothing" as in meaning that no fluid coming out? If so your brake line might be clogged or kinked. How did the banjo fittings look? | ||
| Randymoser |
No nothing like it doesn't stiffen up at all. When I create vacuum with the speed bleeder it continues to draw bubbles, too. I can drain the master over and over again and it still comes out Mr. Bubbles. The banjo bolts look good. The old crush washers looked a bit beat, so I got new ones today. I saw somewhere on the web that a NEW Nissin is only like $120. I've already got $70 into this repair just for the two rebuild kits and fluid. More if you include the 1/2" master and assorted tools to open the circlet... I might just buy something new and call it a day. 'course if that doesn't fix this I'll feel like a moron. Randy | ||
| Guell |
Randy, Have you tried reverse bleeding it? | ||
| Randymoser |
Yep, I tried reverse bleeding it with the speed bleeder. Tomorrow I'm going to try using the method I've read about here. I used to do this using an oil can, but I don't think they make oil cans anymore. There's also one thing I haven't mentioned: I switched to a SS X1 line I got off Ebay when this mess started. It hasn't leaked so I didn't think this was the problem -- and I'm also not keen on using the one that was on the bike because it's all gunked up -- but before I buy another master I need to swap this thing out. How do you clean a dirty line? It's ok to run water through it as long as it dries before use, no? The wife and I only have one other vehicle and I'm getting tired of riding the bicycle to work, so I hope I can figure this thing out before too long. It's hard to look good on a bicycle if you're old and fat  Thanks y'all, Randy | ||
| Billetmetallic |
So here it is from the s1 manual, i remember havin a hell of a time with bleeding the brakes on my buell until i followed the manuals direction of only allowing the brake lever to go half the way before closing the bleeder valve, and then slowly releasing the lever everytime BLEEDING BRAKES NOTE Hydraulic brake fluid bladder-type pressure equipment can be used to fill brake master cylinder through the bleeder valve. Remove master cylinder reservoir cover so that system cannot pressurize. DO NOT USE PRESSURE BLEEDING EQUIPMENT WHEN THE HYDRAULIC SYSTEM IS SEALED WITH MASTER CYLINDER RESERVOIR COVER AND GASKET IN PLACE 1. Install end of a length of plastic tubing over caliper bleeder valve; place other end in a clean container. Stand motorcycle upright. a. Front brake caliper-Figure 1-13. b. Rear brake caliper-Figure 1-14. 2. Add D.O.T. 5 SILICONE HYDRAULIC BRAKE FLUID to master cylinder reservoir. Do not reuse brake fluid. a. Bring fluid level to within 1/8 in. (3.2 mm) of molded boss for front master cylinder reservoir. b. Bring fluid level between upper and lower marks for rear master cylinder reservoir. 3. Depress and hold brake lever/pedal to build up hydraulic pressure. 4. Open bleeder valve about 1/2-turn counterclockwise; brake fluid will flow from bleeder valve and through tubing. When brake lever/pedal has moved 1/2-3/4 of its full range of travel, close bleeder valve (clockwise). Allow brake lever/pedal to return slowly to its released position. 5. Repeat Steps 2-4 until all air bubbles are purged. 6. Tighten bleeder valves. a. Front bleeder valve to 4-6 ft-lbs (5.4-8.1 Nm). b. Rear bleeder valve to 6-9 ft-lbs (8.1-12.2 Nm). 7. Verify master cylinder fluid level as described in Step 2. 8. Tighten master cylinder reservoir cover screws to 9-13 in-lbs (1.0-1.5 Nm). Install cover on rear reservoir.}}} | ||
| Billetmetallic |
also make note of the note stating not to use pressure bleeding equipment if the system is closed up. Hope its as easy as that for you! -g | ||
| Skntpig |
Wait. Bleeding isn't the issue. You mixed Dot 5 and Dot 4. This will swell all of the seals in the master and probably in the caliper. I would rebuild both the caliper, master. I wasn't comfortable reusing my stainless lines after I saw what this did to my pressure bleeder, so I replaced them too. Brakes are pretty important. You can mix Dot 3 and 4 (and new Dot 5.1) but Dot 5 is silicone and does not EVER mix with anything other than Dot 5. From what I understand you can use denatured alcohol to clean everything as long as you are going... to Dot 5. If something has ever had Dot 5 in it and you go to Dot 3,4,5.1 you kill the seals. It can't be cleaned enough as it's a chemical reaction thing on rubber o-rings and seals. Sorry I don't have good news. Here's what I found on Google. http://www.gabma.us/docs/dot5.pdf And read the post by BlacksmithCycles 12-12-2008, 05:27 AM Some brake fluid history: On Here: http://www.jockeyjournal.com/forum/archive/index.p hp/t-46793.html | ||
| Randymoser |
Hi guys, I'll change out the lines today and follow the book AND try the reverse bleed with a syringe. I didn't mix brake fluids, Skntpig. I drained everything back to dry before adding DOT 5, which is what I read I needed to use. Based on the fact that the spring in the master was pretty gunked up with rust-like crap, I've got to think someone used DOT 4 somewhere along the line, though. Well, today's another day... I'll let y'all know if things change. Randy | ||
| Randymoser |
re-reading the comments... Yes, my plan was to go back to dry, but because I re-used the old master I can't be certain that the system didn't ORIGINALLY have DOT 4. So that's bad if it's a chemical thing like Skntpig said... I did also use the speed bleeder on the system when it was closed originally -- before I rebuilt the caliper -- so that's bad, too. I thought I was testing that I had an issue in the caliper. At this point I'm just certain about the caliper, which has been rebuilt and seen only DOT 5. I still think the line is a red herring, but I'll test that today. After that I'm thinking of going to a BRAND NEW Nissin for $127. It's a lot more than a rebuild, but I've already messed that up once. R. | ||
| Skntpig |
Try bench bleeding. If you can remove the entire system and put the caliper up high and the master down low you should be able to get a good bleed. I had to do this with my rears. Just make sure you put something between the pads that will space them out like the rotor is there. Good luck and keep us posted. | ||
| Randymoser |
Quick update: I bought a “race” 5/8 master from a company in GA. (I wish I remembered the name because they were great and delivered the master in two days.) I was worried that I’d lose the mirror because it used a remote reservoir, but it’s a really neat design that keeps the mirror… Anyhow, that didn’t solve anything. So I bled the caliper above the master as was suggested. The lever started firming up, then went limp. I turned the caliper over and lo and behold! Little bubbles were forming on one of the pistons! So I had a leak there. I took the caliper apart again and found TONS more fine black gunk. I took my time and cleaned everything up, put it back together, bled it old school, and it’s been working great ever since. It feels a lot more progressive than it did before and the master – which was probably fine anyhow – looks great. Bled the rear last week and had big old chucks of black stuff run through… I need to go back to it again this weekend. I don’t expect much from the rear, but it’s so hard right now that it’s almost a stretch to call it a brake. Thanks for all the help, guys! Randy |
