| Author | Message | ||
     Safetybob |
Hi, new to the Buell world. I recently acquired a 98 S1 lightening (I was told white and it is black). It is not running well between 2000 and 4500 rpm. It sounds like it flutters and stutters and has no power and almost dies as soon as I pull the clutch in it idles perfect. (the Bike is warmed up). It will also not hold still at an RPM like 3000 or 3500, it jumps up and down 200-500 rpms History and what I have done: The bike sat for @6 years. I have never owned a HD but have worked on my other bikes for years. So cleaned out the petcock, fuel lines, and rebuilt the carb actually 2 times just because I thought I missed something the first time with no luck. (soaked in old school chem 9) and replaced all rubber parts and slides, spark plugs, bypassed the broken kickstand switch, replaced the intake seals, and the carb boot, put fresh high octane gas in and a new odessey battery, tranny fluid and engine oil and filter. She fired right up, and idles great. She has a vance and heins and a K&N air filter and was told that she was jetted by the dealer. Previous owner and friend was the only owner and knows nothing of bikes other than it ran good when I last had it out 6 years ago had the dealer do the jet kit and exhaust and air filter. Now upon inspection I have a slow jet of 45 and a main of 170 (seems small for a piped and jetted bike at 1000 feet of elevation) the book called for a 200? A little confused. The needle is on slot three with 3 small washers on top of the c pin. Not sure if the needle is a kit one or stock? Again the problem is no power at 2000 rpm and up. bogs and stutters and some pops in the exhaust and will cut out. If I blip the throttle the gas will shoot out the brass barrel and keep it running. With the air cleaner off the slide is free to move up and down with the bike on and with the bike off. trying to hold 3000 RPM I can watch the slide actually flutter up and down. Anyone have any ideas. I would love to get this thing working for some fun. And I also hate to go to the stealership to get the thing working. It has been a long time since I had to throw in the white towel and do that. Thanks in advance. Bob | ||
| 4dwuds |
You should be around a 48 and a 195 on the jets, even 50 and 200, may be a little rich. Needle sounds a little high. No go over 2000, I would look at timing or replace module inside timer cover. If the module looks like it got hot and bubbled the epoxy, replace it. don't to forget to scribe some reference marks so you will know where the old one was. Remember, only do ONE change at a time. Start it ,try it out and move on to the next step. | ||
| Sleez |
i'd say it at least needs a 48 and 195. are your intake seals at the head ports ok? check for intake leaks. my .02 (Message edited by sleez on April 03, 2009) | ||
| Jmkybf |
Have you checked resistance in the spark plug wires and coils? It kind of sounds like and ignition problem. Also check to make sure the VOES is working properly. | ||
| 80rs427 |
With a fluttering slide, is there a chance that the diaphram that lifts the slide could have a tear or not be seated properly? | ||
| Safetybob |
Thanks for all the help. I replaced the slide with a new diaphragm so that is fine (I did inspect it prior to install). I did not check the resistance in plug wires or coil yet. I will check that tonight. How many ohms should I be shooting for in the wires? Not sure how to check the coil? Dumb question (newbie to HD motors) what is a VOES? Intake seals are new could I have pinched them when I replaced them???? What is the best way to check them? I plan on going to the dealer tomorrow to get a main and a slow jet. I think I will shoot for a 48 and a 195. the needle is at the third slot from the bottom. Close to the middle enough room for the 3 spacers that were on top of the clip and just enough room for the plastic piece to fit on the top of them. I have the service manual and will look at how to time the HD motor. Never done that. But that should be in the book. Another good thing to do tonight. I will also look at the module in the timing cover (didn't even know it was there :-) havenn't pulled that off. thanks all for your help. Any clue as to why it could have run fine with the previous jetting and after sitting for years not all of a sudden works? Anyway I have done a bunch of searches and read a ton on the pages trying to find my way around and looking for input so all is very much appreciated. Thanks again all keep the ideas coming and I will head into the garage and try a few more things and keep all posted. Really looking forward to get this thing out for fun, no rush for the weekend, snow on the way. gotta love the north.... | ||
| 4dwuds |
If it was running fine when YOU parked it then I would question the carb cleaning and look for intake leaks. Take it apart again and make sure it's clean and none of the holes are gunked up or partially clogged. Blow out all the holes with compressed air.I also take a small vacuum hose, blow in all the holes and listen or feel for the air coming out somewhere else. As 80RS pointed out, check the diaphragm again. Check for leaks by running the engine and carefully spray carb cleaner around the intake manifold, if the engine changes RPM's , you have a leak. Will it run better if you pull the choke out slightly ? (Message edited by 4dwuds on April 03, 2009) | ||
| Safetybob |
Sorry when the guy parked the bike 6 years ago it was running fine or so he said. When I got it it didn't run and it ran idle fine after carb cleaning. But had the flat dead spot above 2k rpm. so i put in a new slide and diaphragm and re-cleaned and blew out everything to make sure I didn't miss anything. I did soak it and and blew compressed air through all the holes with no blockage. I checked the diaphragm it is new and no holes or tears under strong light. I just checked the vent line and took out the vent and checked the balls are moving correctly so not a vent issue. I just also checked the coil primary within range of 2.7 ohms and the secondary at 10320 ohms both within spec from the manual. The spark plug wires are within range from the manual the short one is 2900 ohms and the long one is 6200 ohms, Off to test the intake seals to see if I messed those up when I installed. Thanks all for the help. | ||
| 4dwuds |
"when the guy parked the bike 6 years ago it was running fine or so he said." Yep, and the checks in the mail.LOL. Now we know to start from square one. Keep at it, we'll find it. | ||
| Safetybob |
OK. I must have screwed up the intake seals. I had to use a whole bottle of carb cleaner but I got it to die out spraying it at the intake seals. They are new. I must have pinched them when I put them in. I will let it cool down and take a look at the seals. He is a good friend in fact haven't given him any money. He wants to make sure I can get it running and that I like the bike. Only trading him a bicycle wheel set so either way it is a killer deal. And should be a fun track bike. Just not used to the HD motor. An all new learning process for me :-) Much different than my gs1150. Thanks for all the input. Great project bike. | ||
| 80rs427 |
Got any pictures? It's always fun to see somebody's new project. | ||
| Safetybob |
Sure, from my phone so the quality is not great. I put the intake gaskets back in and they looked fine. No blisters warping or deformation. All was clean and tidy. I bolted them back on like it was a wheel a 1/2 turn each opposing bolt just to make sure it was even. I do not have a vacuum pump to see if the VOES is working properly I did hook the ohm meter up and sucked on the thing, depending on how good I suck :-) the switch did work just not sure if I suck more than 6 on the Mercury scale. :-) I will take to the dealer and see if they will check it for me. I also drained the gas again and will refill again with super. I also blew out the gas line again and it was clean. let me know if the pictures didn't work.    | ||
| Safetybob |
And I double checked the slide diaphragm it was seated correctly. Tomorrow off to the dealership to check the VEOS and get a 195 main and a 48 slow jet to install and some new gas. I'll keep ya posted and keep the ideas coming in. | ||
| Sleez |
there has been suggestions from others here, to polish the cast surface of the intake manifold where it contacts the intake seals, make sure it is nice and smooth, so you get a good seal. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Wow, very cool bike. You do have a "White Lightning", even though it's black. From what I can tell, a black White Lightning is a RARE BIRD. Giveaway in the pics is the black heads, and even though there's no tank shown I'm willing to bet it's the 5 gallon Manta tank. Very nice. There's also a VIN designator, but I don't remember which is which in my pre-coffee hours. YS is one, SS is the other, for S1 and S1W. I also have a '98 S1W (S1 White Lightning), originally it had the same V&H exhaust that you have, but I recently located and installed a Buell race exhaust. I run 45/190 jets, 2.75 turns out on the idle screw, and it runs like a raped ape. The idle screw is the one thing I don't see mentioned in your posts - where do you have it set? Usually 2.5 turns out is the best starting point...but if it's in too far, you can experience some of what you're getting. It sounds like you have things in order, and are chasing all the right leads. Once you get to take a spin on it...you're gonna LOVE it. If you don't, send me a note. I can see it now - Ebony and Ivory, parked in my garage. LOL. When you get a chance, PM me your information for the S1W VIN/owners list. I have to doublecheck, but information is: owner name location VIN number body color frame color wheel color/type (painted alloy, polished PM) miles mods Good luck, and definitely keep us posted! | ||
| Safetybob |
Well just got back from the dealer and no jets on order 195 and a 48 just for fun. I talked to the service guy (I think he was board because he actually ran through what I had done and gave me like 30 minutes of advice/ time. They did not have a vacuum pump to test the thing so I am off to a auto store to purchase one and get some super gas. But he said to test the float position as described in the service manual and to test the slide diaphragm by blowing compressed air into the back of the vent area and see if it goes up. I actually cleaned the intake areas and the manifold with a brass wire brush and then polished them with wet 900 sand paper. to ensure a clean fit. After I get back from the pump and do the bench float position I will put it back together and see if there are any changes (well in the garage snow is on the way. The air screw i have set at 2.5 turns out from seat. Here is a pic of the tank on the bike    | ||
| Sleez |
good job so far, taking all the right steps to have a great bike soon! if you do plan an making it a track bike, save the good bodywork and get some "scuffed" stuff from ebay or here to run on the track, so you don't risk hurting good bodywork, just my opinion. plus not much need for the big tank on the track, and the small one will give you more room to run clip ons. i like that seat!!! | ||
| Safetybob |
Tested the VEOS and it is good, infinity under 5, and opens switch at 5.5 hg at 3.6 ohms which is within specs of the service manual. Also tested the diaphragm by blowing air past the opening and it was smooth and held position. The float position was 11mm (within range) at 14 degrees, (1 degree out of range 15-20 acceptable degree angle) Off to determine how to get that extra few degrees, Here is a staged picture. i had to balance the mic so things may not be exact as the pic :-)  | ||
| Bluzm2 |
When you replace the intake seals use a thin coating of Silglyde. Makes installation trouble free and they seam to last a bit longer too. I've heard symptoms like yours in the past, it was a coil going bad. Another time it was a marginal plug wire. On the carb front, a 48 or 50 might be a bit large. The 45 is usually good with 2 1/2 - turns on the screw. If you have to go more than 3 turns out, bump to the next size jet. Good luck! Brad | ||
| Safetybob |
Well just took it out, the roads dried from the snow yesterday. Again idles fine. But still coughing at 2-2.5K rpm and up. Kinda scary, go around a corner in the subdivision and in the middle of the turn I hit the 2-2.5 rpm and it wants to die right where you need a little gas and with more throttle or less it jumps to life and wants to take off just when your not ready for it. When I pulled the choke out it ran better, it didn't want to die and felt smoother, but it ran like the choke was pulled out but didn't want to die and cough. It doesn't happen only in the corners just kinda scary in the corners. :-) But it feels like it is going to be a fun bike just so irritating..... So what say you for the next steps, coil and wires? Could it be that they are ok with the ohm check and for some reason not working properly at higher RPM's? What do you think the choke pulled out running better means? Still fuel air issue? After it cools down I will look at the module inside the timing cover. | ||
| Ratbuell |
If choke-out makes it happier, you either need to rejet richer, or just try taking the idle screw out an additional 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Do it a little at a time, take it on a run, adjust again, repeat. Tedious, but effective  Electrical wouldn't give a whit if the choke was in or out; my guess is jetting or a plugged carb passage. Mine acted this way when I had enough gunk built up in the carb that I needed a dental pick to get the stuff out of the jets. I keep a set of picks on hand now, I got them at the local hobby shop and they're worth their weight in gold. | ||
| Road_thing |
My money is on a plugged pilot jet or passage. rt | ||
| Safetybob |
Ok just check the cam position sensor test in the book, triangle plug connector, across the red and the black I should have 12 V only have 10 from what the book said. As for the main jet blockage when the carb was off I could see light through it, after 3 soakings in tipple meth death carb cleaner, this carb sparkles inside and out. And compressed air can easily pass through all openings. So think there is still some junk in there? Or is it the 170 main jet? As stated above the main is a 170 and I have a 195 on order but won't be here till next week. I will try and turn out the air screw out an additional 1/2 turn and see if that doesn't make it more happy. If it does I will just wait till the 195 comes in. Thanks all for your help everyone. Maybe I will just rebuild the carb for fun since I can now do it in my sleep. I will let it soak extra long and see if that doesn't clean it up. | ||
| 4dwuds |
Try blowing air by mouth through all the orifices with a piece of vacuum hose and listen AND feel for the exiting air. Just to make sure a grain of sand is not plugging the hole, sometimes solvent will not wash this stuff out. | ||
| Safetybob |
I took it apart again and before I soaked it, I pulled a vacuum through each hole and it had no vacuum in any passage (no blockage). And after it it soaked and washed in water I blew compressed air through each hole (again no blockage). I will test drive again tomorrow and see if that changes anything. Any ideas why the voltage would be low on the triangle plug. I think it was actually the test for the ignition moduall not the cam position sensor. The batter is 12.3 so it should have read at least 12. | ||
| Safetybob |
I used a flashlight to look into each hole to ensure things were clean after blowing out the carb and shining the light up the main jet passage you can see clean light. Even though the picture is a bit blurry. So it can suck and blow through each hole. Every time I have rebuilt the carb I have blown but not tried to pull a vacuum. So maybe there was something in there. Will find out tomorrow night after work when I ride it. Keep the ideas coming.  | ||
| Ratbuell |
That 170's gonna have a LOT to do with it. I'd withhold judgement till you get a good set of jets in there. | ||
| Akbuell |
FWIW, it seems every time I have chased an issue like this around, the problem turned out to be an ignition system issue. That being said, is there a chance that the fuel lines and shut off from the tank to the carb might be partially plugged? After 6 years..... | ||
| Akbuell |
Sorry, just re-reaad the thread, you have already covered that. Dave  | ||
| Safetybob |
I cleaned out the petcock (took it apart) and replaced the fuel line. It runs gas out with the valve on "on" and reserve with the fuel cap on. (that's how I drained the tank to ensure it was flowing well. I feel my abilities in rebuilding the carb are solid and it is clean. I would say it has to be the 170 main jet, (but it ran great when the previous owner had it out (albeit 6 years ago)) And I do trust the guy. So I question if the 170 is it. Just a gut feeling. So my gut is telling me it has to be someplace else (electrical??). I am half tempted to replace the ignition coil and wires but hate to throw money at stuff that doesn't fix the issue. But it would still be cheaper than going to the dealer. |
