| Author | Message | ||
     Bhillberg |
Yep, no fun at all. I actually ran into wearing them out more often than snapping them. But yeah, every once in a while one would let loose. Usually the smaller ones could be yanked out with needle nose or vice grips. | ||
| Bluzm2 |
If you use a left had bit, you may just back out the stud as you are drilling it out. Saves having to retap/clean up the threads. Brad | ||
| Bhillberg |
Yeah, if I get lucky the left hander will do it. I went ahead and ordered the Jim's tool as insurance. I was just wondering how a left hand drill bit would apply to the tool. I mean if it is the perfect size guide to let a drill bit just small enough to not damage the threads through then you shouldn't be able to back the entire stud threads and all through the tool, right? And if all that is left is a very thin portion of the bolt (basically the threads) then a left handed drill bit wouldn't really back that out any better than a tap or some picking at it with picks, right? I am just trying to completely understand this tool before I "go at it" on my bike. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Good decision buying the Jims tool. I've successfully removed two sheared studs (00 M2 and 05 9sx) without it, and after each one, decided I was a dumba** for not just buying the stupid tool. For the record, it feels dumber each time I repeat it.  | ||
| Preybird1 |
LOL stupid stealerships they always want RAPE your wallet, I was quoted this price range as well, They wanted to take the head off and send it over to there in house mechanist to put it on an end mill to get the stud out top dead center. Here is the funny part. I was just calling for kicks and giggles to see what they would actually charge, I was doing my own work and i had broken off the second easy out inside the drilled out stud, I now had just told the guy on the phone at the HD dealer this and He said...(That is not going to make the machinist happy!!) I said no shit im not happy!! I eventually Fixed it myself. | ||
| Court |
Of course they would. Unless . . . you were willing to grant them an "ah shucks, don't worry about it, things happen" if they messed up up. The dealer pretty much HAS to do it right . . if I mangle the head, I cuss, try again and eventually get it right. | ||
| Bhillberg |
See I honestly just don't see this as the dealer HAVING to do it right. Are you saying that they shouldn't try other options first? I mean to actually retrieve the stud before drilling it all the way? I could see that if they snapped and easy out off in there or if they weren't using some sort of guide and the drill walked into the head then maybe having to take it off. But what happened to trying to get it out the most economical way for the customer first? I actually called the other nearby dealer and this is exactly what they were going to do, not take the head off. So I stand by the notion that the first dealer I asked was simply trumping up the charges to make more money off of me | ||
| Kalali |
"first dealer I asked was simply trumping up the charges to make more money off of me" A dealer trumping up the charges?? No that is impossible....  | ||
| Preybird1 |
LOL they trump all the time....Don't get us started. I was quoted $800.00 for taking out the motor "roll out the motor" To do a simple rocker gasket at one dealer. and no i wont name them....This time! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Once you break that easy off in there, the Jims tool is out of the question. If I was a dealer, I wouldn't touch it either. | ||
| Court |
The dealer, unlike the owner, can't unnecessarily risk a first failed attempt.
| ||
| Oldog |
I was quoted $800.00 for taking out the motor "roll out the motor" To do a simple rocker gasket at one dealer Why do the dealers want to remove the engine? The front head can be removed in the frame it is right there in the FSM for crying out loud! The dealer should know that the motor does not have to come out to pull the head, how ever the fastest way to repair the broken stud with certainty is to pull it (the head) and take it to a shop with a mill to provide for exact alignment, Drill and retap. a stuck / broken EZout would merit removal of the head by the dealer unless you want to pay a mechanic shop rate to get a die grinder and a box of points for it and do some serious digging then the head may have to be welded up As a customer you should be able to request the drill guide method ( head on ) and get a quote. its the shops bad if the drill or the tap breaks while in their care it happens.} | ||
| Preybird1 |
Hey also you can have the stud channeled out and sleeved if you mess it up. Much cheaper. I don't know why they said they had to take the motor out but me and the service manager had words. I told him i would still buy parts from him but i would never bring the bike to his service shop ever! This was after the dealer that is 5 min. from me pissed me off over some parts. | ||
| Bhillberg |
I know that there is much dismay on here towards "harley" mechs, but honestly it is a harley head. After talking with some old timers they have said that they have had many bikes that this happened to. Some came right out, others they oversized the stud and ran it for years. I don't intend on doing this but I would do it before I spent 750 on a stud replacement | ||
| Reepicheep |
The broken tap will come out with tungsten carbide bullet shaped dremel bits. It just takes a lot of time and risks damage. And it puts little slivers of steel all in your hands (ouch!). | ||
| Sleez |
found a site with some experience, worth reading!! http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/may2003/techtotech. htm | ||
| Fast1075 |
Good article Sleez...I'm glad to see someone bringing up the EDM...thats not a real well known technique...and it is a great way to get those REALLY nasty ones out without damaging the head. | ||
| Bhillberg |
yeah I actually have access to EDM here at work, if I end up getting into trouble with the normal extraction I'll be pulling the head and bringing it in for EDM | ||
| Sleez |
ok...just removed all 4 of mine, just as a precaution as per Al, since the exhaust pipe wasn't installed correctly, and the studs COULD have been subject to some nasty stress levels. 3 of 4 came out with no extra effort, just double nutted and PB Blasted. one however was a beeeoootchhh!!!!! luckily, it was the easiest one to get to, lower rear. i had to hit it with the torch 4 or 5 times while getting about one full turn per heat cycle!!! needless to say this stud is thoroughly trashed now!!! vice grips have eaten it alive!!! but all in all, i am happy with the outcome, all are out, and the heads look fine! good luck. the question i haven't seen answered yet...when re-installing new studs, should they be loctited or anti-seized???? obviously would be easier to remove in the future if anti-seized, but will they loosen if not loctited??? | ||
| Bhillberg |
ok, I admit I am an idiot. I got a little anxious and tried to get the non broken studs out. I did not have any luck (heat, PB blaster for a couple of days, and vice grips) so I took a stab at the broken one. Now there is a tip of an easy out in there. I know, I know don't scold me. Just tell me should I start on taking off the heads or is there another route? | ||
| Jramsey |
With out see it in person I'd say your screwed, some lousy outs as I call them are carbon steel, others are high speed steel and the cheapie imports are somewhere in between or made of mystery metal that's been case hardened. I myself leave exhaust studs alone unless broken or rusted so badly that failure is eminent. TIG welding a piece of scrap to the stud is your next and only option before pulling the head. If you have to pull the head I can pop it out in the mill but I'm sure you have a decent machine shop in your area. P.S. Give the remainder of the easy out kit to some you don't care for.  | ||
| Buell_bert |
Sleez, personally I am an Antisieze person. It is your bike and your call. I would rather it backed out and start leaking than rust in and have to take the head off. If it backs out you should be able to hear it before it decides to go on a walkabout without you or your bike. | ||
| Bhillberg |
unfortunately it was a snap on easy out so I figure it wasn't a cheapie. It is pretty dead center with a bit of stud surrounding it. With the theory of an easy out being left handed threading could a good bit actually back them out? I have made a dimple in the easy out with crappy bits, walking has not become an issue, YET! Maybe I could get lucky with a guide and an extremely hard bit? | ||
| Jramsey |
135 degree split points should have been used in the first place. 118 degree bits will work harden the stud hand drilling. I have about $30,000+ in Snap-on tools and my only regret is the hex drive(Allen) and Torx bits. S/K hex drive/Torx are much better and you don't have to chase the traveling salesman down for replacements. | ||
| Oldog |
Give the remainder of the easy out kit to some you don't care for.  B-Berg No I told you so, experience is a hard teacher some times, Good that you have access to EDM, that is the prefered method, putting the bike in the tank may be a problem though  do you guys have a tap desintegrator? same idea just a crude version did you loose the whole biz-nutz end of the snappy tool thing in the hole? try a punch and break it up or get started pulling the head, sorry to hear this man  } | ||
| Reepicheep |
Don't panic. I've done this twice, here is what I did. 1) (this step is really important)... Slap yourself for not getting the jims tool. If this is your second time, like it was for me, slap really hard. 2) Go to your local hardware store and get a small tungsten carbide bullet shaped cutting bit (and a dremel tool if you don't already have one). It has to be smaller then the stud, and smaller is better. I think I went through two of them by the time I finished. 3) Also get two or three trianglar cone shaped stone bits (small). Don't get the cheaper ones for chainsaw blades, they didn't hold up. 4) Take your time and use them to chew out the broken tap / easy out. The really small stone cone shaped tips are great for starting divots, or getting progress started again when the tungsten carbide bit is not getting good purchase. But they clog, wear, and break easy, so they aren't really good for removing a lot of material. The tungsten carbide bullet bit will chew through all the material (even the easy out) pretty well, thats what you will use to remove the bulk of the material. It also makes little micro slivers of razor blade, that work there way into all sorts of squishy things full of nerve endings, so stay clean and careful and wear protective eyewear (and gloves if possible). Take your time, those bits chew through aluminum even faster the steel. Once you get the tip out, you are back to the stuck / drilled stud. You can drill big and heli-coil, you can drill small and try and pick at it and retap, or you can get the jims tool and drill perfect and retap. Its just about impossible to do it by hand and go plumb down the center of the stud, but you can just retap the new hole, and it will be partially anchored by old threads in the aluminum, and partially anchored by new threads in part of the old stud still anchored down in there. So by the time you are at the bottom of the new hole, half of it is the aluminum head, half is the old stud. A hack for sure, but probably a reasonably solid one. I started with the "drill small and retap", using the logic that if that fails and the stud pulls out, I can *then* heli coil it. So far, both times I used it, this original hack has held (20k+ cumulative miles between the two repairs). Don't ask me how I know | ||
| Reepicheep |
Oh, and other options... Jim (Oldog) is exactly right, the "right" repair is to pull the head, and have it ESD machined. That's several hours and lots of gaskets and time though, so I wouldn't blame somebody for taking a gamble on a hack. Just know that it's a gamble. If you sort of butcher it, I think Wes already recovered one "mostly dead" head by welding material back. That's probably a $200 deal by the time you ship it. If you ***really*** butcher it, how much is a stock XB head? $400 or $500? A lot of money to be sure, but as worst case engine scenarios go, I've seen a lot worse. | ||
| Bhillberg |
See this is the really dumb part of it (Me). I have the Jims tool on order from americansportbike!!! I just was up late and feeling motivated. I will get started with the carbide dremel combo tonight and hopefully the Jims tool will show up today or tomorrow. If I can just get this easy out out without screwing stuff up then I will be in good shape. I tried drilling on the easy out with some decsent cobalt bits. They just made a divot in the easy out. They did not walk on me though so maybe it is a good thing since it is kinda a pilot for the dremel. I used too small of an easy out to begin with and that is probably part of the reason it failed. Again though this is a good thing as there is plenty of stud surounding it so I shouldn't get into the threads too easily. Now it is just to get the thing out and wait for my tool. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If it makes you feel better, the right size easy out would probably have broken also I think you will find the tungsten carbide bit will chew through it pretty well... | ||
| Bhillberg |
Well I just went shopping (at the crib at work) and have about 10 tungsten carbide bits of different shapes and sizes. When I get home tonight I will try to chew through the easy out. My wife called and the Jim's tool arrived today too so hopefully I will be on my way here soon. I still have to figure out a way to get the other 3 studs out. I will pick up a stud remover tomorrow and hopefully be putting her all back together tomorrow evening. |
