| Author | Message | ||
     Kyrocket |
Well, I finally got the motor out of the bike last night and of course all the pics I took are too big despite all my resizing efforts soooo... Imagine if you will, my cylinders are off and looking down into the bottom end I can see my connecting rods and flywheel. The strip of material between the two cylinder holes looks like it has a relief knocked/grinded out of it on the bottom side. The connecting rods show no signs of hitting anything, the cylinders (the bottoms of which almost touch in said area) have not one scuff on them. Is this some kind of relief that's factory? I've owned this bike since new so I know no one has ever been into it. I'm just stumped as to where all this shrapnel has come from. I've assumed that this piece has been knocked out by something and then got grinded up in the flywheel but why weren't the cylinders banged up as well? I can e-mail pics if anyone really wants them, until then I'll try and resize them again. | ||
| Brinnutz |
Kyro, you could use this program to resize tons of pics at a time: http://picture-resize.findmysoft.com/ Then use a web gallery, such as www.imageshack.us, which you upload your pics to. Then, when you're in your gallery, you copy the link that says "Direct," and type / imagelink{paste the "Direct" link here} That way your pics aren't crappy and compressed and ugly as shit, which is what the 75kb badweb attachment makes u do. For example, one of my photos linked from an online gallery, resized, but not compressed (look at quality):  A compressed version I uploaded to here for test purposes, using XAT, then attached here:  So, all in all, use a gallery, and find a photo tool that will batch process images (meaning it will resize tons of pics at one time), then upload, then link. Just a thought | ||
| Brinnutz |
Oil pump drive gear? | ||
| Kyrocket |
I wish it was the oil pump drive gear. That was my first inclination when it died in NC 300 miles from home but I've got it stripped down and can't find anything wrong except this suspect spot. It's either that or in the bottom end somewhere. I'll try resizing these pics. Thanks Wilson. | ||
| Oldog |
K-Roc Send em to me I'll squash em for ya | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
If you host the pics elsewhere and link them from your post there is no size limit. I upload mine to facebook first which automatically shrinks them. That works for me unless there's a lot of bright light in the pic - then they still need some compression. | ||
| Slc4me |
myspace does the same thing auto resize | ||
| Texastechx1 |
photobucket, free and no spam emails, its great! | ||
| Kyrocket |
 ...or just change the setting on the phone to VGA while home on lunch and snap a new one. This pic is standing at the front of the engine looking back. Visible is the front connecting rod, and I put a rag in the rear cylinder to better show the area that is gone. It is very thin there and if this is not normal I will have to either get two new cases or, or, or I just don't know what I'll do but what is the consensus. What say ye? | ||
| Jramsey |
Shrapnel is random pieces/chunks of metal. You didn't mention finding any. Looks like the normal rod clearance notch to me but the pics a little fuzzy and dark. | ||
| Kyrocket |
Oh I found it. I can dip my magnet into the bottom and pull it out. It's small stuff of course, nicely ground and shredded. I'll post up a pic when I can get it all together and next to something to give an idea of size. I've never been this far into a motor so I didn't know if the rod clearance notch was normal. Thanks for the info, the saga continues for the culprit. | ||
| Kyrocket |
I'm pulling my hair (what's left of it) out here. Drained all the oil out of the bottom and have turned it over dozens of times while peering down with a flashlight and can find nothing that looks like it has been chipped off or broken. I can fill up a WD-40 cap (The small one) with the metal I've pulled out of the bottom and yet nothing looks abnormal. Starting at the top the rockers looked good, heads, pistons, cylinders, cams and even the oil pump drive gear looked good. What am I missing? Nothing looks odd or missing in the trans or primary but if something did happen there there would be shavings in there also. This is confined to the bottom end and the finer stuff was in the filter. Back to the garage. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Cage for bearings eaten? Is it steel? This sucks to hear man. | ||
| Billetmetallic |
ive never been that far into an evo motor, but i now see that chunk missing in your picture, does the other cylinder side of the case look the same? I think you may be right, but what would cause that to happen if it is where the metal came from? | ||
| Hippyjoe |
If it sticks to your magnet it's steel. Enough steel to fill up a small WD cap is too much. How much play in the rods? Are the wrist pin retainers all in place? How about the piston rings? If you have a capful of steel in the bottom end you're probably gonna need to rebuild the motor. Even if a race didn't fail, all that crap spinning around those shafts and bearings... cam lobes and cylinder walls, lifters and bearing races... bushings... it could get pretty ugly. | ||
| Preybird1 |
This reminds me of blackbetty bike i wonder if its back together? | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Black Betty is still an empty frame, and she had obvious top end failure. I see the area in question in the picture, but it doesn't really look like damage to me.. Looks like a connecting rod is the only part that could have caused damage in that area and it should be obvious if one "ran away". I'll take pics of my cases & connecting rods for comparison as soon as they come back from polishing. A little side to side play in each rod is normal - moreso with the front rod. Up and down play however means you've got some work to do. All this information is stuff I've learned in the past month since starting my rebuild, so take it with a grain of salt. Have any pictures of the shrapnel? If it's powdery shavings as opposed to stuff that looks like it was produced by a lathe (only way I can think to describe it) then maybe it has all been collecting on a drain bolt at the bottom of the cases. IIRC the drain bolt is slightly magnetic in order to keep metal from flowing through the engine. Maybe you're just cleaning it off with a stronger shop magnet? | ||
| Hugie03flhr |
Can you feel or hear any grinding when you rotate the crank by hand??? BUT... for peace of mind I would have the cases split and bearings replaced. It can't be that much since your already stripped down the engine. Maybe someone will jump in and give you an idea how much $$$$ | ||
| Pkforbes87 |
Took my bottom end to be flushed out, inspected for damage, and all seals, bearings, and snap rings replaced. Cost $400 parts and labor without them finding anything damaged. In my circumstances I consider it worth the peace of mind knowing that the bottom end is good. I didn't trust my lack of knowledge and tools to do the job myself. | ||
| Kyrocket |
It is steel. Yes the other side looks the same because the area there is very, very thin and I'm pretty certain, as said by someone else, that is a notch for rod clearance. It seems that it has all been contained in the flywheel area as the cams were surprisingly clean. I can turn it by hand and there is no grinding or hang ups. Most of it does look like it came off a metal lathe or better yet kinda looks like flat weld spatter. All the top end was accounted for; wrist pins, retaining pins and rings. There is no play in the connecting rods, a little side play in the front but very little, not enough to be concerned about. This is why it is sooo frustrating, you guys are coming up with some great ideas but I guess I'll just have to call my local HD connection who works out of his garage. If there ever was a parts guru he is it. He's one of those guys who can look at a tail light and tell you exactly which year, model and probably what kind of bulb was burnt in it, he's that good. Keep the ideas coming guys and I'll try and snap a pic of the shrapnel at lunch. I may have to get a wide angle lens to capture all of it.  | ||
| Kyrocket |
 ...and from the side.  The cap wasn't filled all the way up but this isn't all of it. There's still some on various rags in the garage but this is the majority of it. I'll keep you posted as to the culprit. | ||
| Jos51700 |
It's probably bearing race material. How much slop in the rod bearings? There should be NONE. BTW. The case is aluminum. If the debris in the bottom came from the case, it wouldn't be sticking to a magnet. It appears that you are seeing the standard cylinder cross-milling. | ||
| Dfbutler |
Good bet it is a bearing failure on one or both connecting rods. Have you looked at cylinders? Could be piston/wrist pin(s) scraping cylinder walls. You going to have to bite the bullet and split the cases, flush out the pieces and check bearings, etc. | ||
| Oldog |
There are 4 bearings in the lower end 2 tapered roller bearings on the primary drive side these take the major load and control the end play. 1 needle bearing on the cam drive side 1 straight roller bearing on the crank shaft connecting rod big end. Question could the rods be moving when they should not be? ( making the metal ) I Presume that all of the top end parts and cam gear chest stuff check good ( Im thinking of all possible sources of STEEL in the motor. | ||
| Kyrocket |
Besides there being what I consider a lot of carbon on the top of the pistons everything in the top end looked top notch. The pistons had all their related hardware and the cylinders looked great. This bike was/is getting the 1250 anyway so maybe a busted up 883 is in my future. I'm going to call my local mechanic to see what he would charge to split the cases and put in new bearings or I may just do it and learn myself as I started out doing, although when I first started I thought it was the oil pump drive gear. Oh yeah, Oldog the oil pump was disassembled and looked good. | ||
| Texastechx1 |
HOLY S**T thats a lot of metal! I'm gonna have to agree with DfButler, I think your rod bearings have eaten themselves alive. regardless your looking at a complete overhaul of the engine, i would just go ahead and slip the cases, get the crank/rod assembly out and take it to a trusty machine shop to pull the assembly apart and check everything out. | ||
| Oldog |
After re reading the thread, I agree with DF & TT time for a tear down, I am puzzled as to why you do not feel any slop in the big end bearings. can you postup pix of the cam chest end and the primary case ends of the crank? | ||
| Kyrocket |
Boy you guys is smart! At first there was no play side to side or up and down until I worked it around, now the front rod will pull up alot more than it should. Now the question comes up; what causes this? I've always done my own maintenance, changed the oil regularly, always kept correct tension on the primary. Could it just be bad bearings, possibly? Let me know what you think. I will document with pictures. Thanks guys. | ||
| Oldog |
I may get corrected here but I am under the impression that the con rod is the outer race of the big end bearing and the crank pin is the inner, there is a cage and pins between, BTW DF Only one rod has a bearing in it the other fits over and locks into it "knife and fork rods" are a discription that is commonly used. The arrangement is said to eliminate a vibration force called rocking couple I have no idea what that is about, it does make the motor narrower though. I believe that one of our sponsors rebuilds cranks the X1 crank is pressed together and should be rebuildable. I have no Idea, why the bearings failed, I FEEL that more oil capacity would have been good if it could have been done on our bikes. A momentary starvation or heat related break down of the oil may be another explanation. another is that the case hardening could have failed leading to tracking, Bearings from what I have learned ( not so much ) can fail like that for no discernable reason, I have to believe that one reason that the Japanese motor companies went with plain bearings and away from this type of set up was to help eliminate this from the list of possible problems. And in the end We have a hot rodded Crusier engine in our bikes and if we ride them hard enough and long enough they will fail. Thats ok for me these engines are ment to be repairable VS throw away (Message edited by oldog on February 11, 2009) | ||
| Kyrocket |
Thanks Oldog, I'm OK with rebuilding, I enjoy finding out what makes things tick, I just wish it wasn't so deep into it. Taking the transmission out right now and it looks intimidating but it will allow me to check things over in there. I'm here to do a search for the front sprocket socket size that I'll probably use twice. I'll do the clutch pack upgrade if there is money left over in the kitty after this. After this ice storm we've had, then the car needing new axles I'm 'bout drained. My goal is to have it done before Memorial day for a ride I've been looking forward to then. I'll be OK if I get another problem free 23K miles out of this rebuild. I guess we can't all be Buellistic and get over 106K with no major hiccups. |
