| Author | Message | ||
     Dragonwing |
Greetings: Love my S3, but can't quite figure out why the mounting tabs for two brake calipers, and why the PM wheels are drilled and tapped for two rotors, but there is only one on this model. Just looks unfinished, and I'm sure that the extra braking power would be welcome. Does the company offer another caliper to fit the other side, and perhaps a junction block for the brake lines, or do I need to scavenge a caliper from another bike and go to Galfer lines? DW | ||
| Court |
>>>>I'm sure that the extra braking power would be welcome. Adding another disc and rotor will decrease braking effectiveness. | ||
| Dragonwing |
Court: With all due respect, you can't just throw out a statement like that without an explanation, and just let it sit there and smell. Especially since, viscerally, at least, it just flies in the face of logic. DW | ||
| Spiderman |
Just ask yourself this, Do you really need 12 pistons gripping 345mm rotors on a bike that weighs 400lbs? On top of that you are adding sprung weight to the front end. | ||
| Dragonwing |
Need it? Maybe. Want it? Hell, yeah! And, besides, if it's not needed, why did Buell keep the caliper mounting ears on the offside fork? It just looks tacky.... DW | ||
| Djkaplan |
If I were going to do a dual disc on my bike (I may do just that), I'd rather have two smaller discs and 4-pistons. Two huge discs and two 6-piston calipers are just too heavy for the application. I'd love to take the entire front suspension and brakes off a current literbike for this purpose. Keeping my eyes open for the right opportunity. But then again... I could eventually get a ZTL 2 setup and take advantage of the lighter weight and keeping it in the 'family'. Gotta keep the peepers open. (Message edited by djkaplan on July 14, 2008) | ||
| Djkaplan |
Dragonwing... Buell used to market a separate disc, caliper and master cylinder for a dual disc conversions. I think it was discontinued because of slow demand. Do a cursory search and I bet you find something if you got the scratch for it. I could swear I've seen similar packages on Euro-sites. | ||
| Spiderman |
why did Buell keep the caliper mounting ears on the offside fork? Well the cliff notes version. tooling. Plain and simple. Other than the Buell logo on the lower stanchion that mold was used for other bikes with possible dual disk setups. | ||
| Court |
Quickly . . . .headed in to testify before the Public Service Commission at 1:00PM.
Folks will argue, few engineers will. Buell, by the way, didn't jsut derive this as some hari-brained marketing scheme. There have been years and miles of testing and Talledega, Placeta, AZ and overseas. Feel free to argue, cuss, discuss and debate . . .it's been going on since 1991. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Without having done the conversion, I'd say the only real advantage (on paper) would be greater resistance to fade. If this is a problem you're having, dual discs would be a solution, but as pointed out, it does have its downsides too. It's a lot of unsprung weight to add. It sounds like you really just want the dual disc look, which I don't have a problem with... just know the facts before you start spending money. Most riders will never experience the issues Court pointed out if they do the conversion... but they can be real disadvantages to some of us. Until I make a move either way on my M2, I'm at least going to trim the unused caliper mounting points off the left forkleg for a more finished look. | ||
| Grancuda |
If you live in a state that requires inspection, you can make a "flag" that will bolt up to the unused caliper mounting points and use it for a inspection sticker. I too like the look of the dual calipers and if I came across a set up for a decent price I would really consider it. I don't ride mine to the extent I would notice the differences - good & bad. I would have more weight up front to keep the front down which would be a plus. | ||
| Mikeyp |
Not to piss on Courts opinion, but my dual disc setup is being installed as we speak. It's on my 1998 S1W, and i'll tell you boys this... I warped 5 freekin rotors...yup...5. Am i hard on the brakes? I dunno...but i never warped a single rotor on any other sportbike i owned, and they all had dual front brakes. So, i'll tell you my intial impression, and snap a few pics when i get the chance. BTW...the brake setup i have is EBC race rotors, pinched by Brembos from a Ducati 998. That should do the trick. (Message edited by mikeyp on July 14, 2008) | ||
| Court |
The Dual Disc setup looks fabulous. . . .Henrik just did it. I'd be open to a "fades less" thought path as well. But the "provides better braking" has never been supported by testing. Folks, I think, get caught in a "more is better: mindset and leave some important variables out of the equation. MikeyP. . tough on brakes? . . say it ain't so?  | ||
| Dragonwing |
Now THIS is what I like! Informed, rational, discussion without a lot of infantile name-calling. I appreciate that. My question, though, is why then do other manufacturers (A Kawasaki ZX10 comes to mind, as an example) who make bikes that weigh in at significantly less than the Buell, feel the need to install, say, dual 4-pot calipers on the front, if this set-up is no more efficient (from a braking standpoint) than a single caliper and rotor? It surely can't just be 'the look.' There has to have been some engineering thought put into the decision. Help me out here, Court. I'm eager to learn. DW | ||
| Court |
>>>>Court. I'm eager to learn. Then lets start with two preliminary practice lessons. FIRST - You'll not see MikeyP and I argue anymore than you'll see Erik and I argue. We may enthusiastically disagree, that's the sign of learned folks with diverse opinions that they feel they can support, they believe in and they respect one another. "Arguing" is the fouled by-product of the Internet and generally employed by folks with little experience, knowledge or ability to reduce to writing their opinions. MikeyP and I can get in the dirt with each other and you'll learn something from it. He's smart. SECOND - Get yourself ready to talk about that "the look" thing by thumbing through a Victoria Secret catalog. Better yet (and I saved the copy that arrived here) go to the current Nordstrom lingerie catalog. . . thumb through it and get a sense of what is contained in the gap between function (support of breasts) and "the look". You'll need this to understand the discussion we are going to have. Yes DW . . folks really do things for "the look" and to play into the simple "if one's good, two must be better" mindset of the buyer. MikeyP will disagree. . . . with the part about the brakes, not the part about the lingerie. Court | ||
| Road_thing |
If we're talking about breasts, one's not enough and three are too many! rt welcome back, Mikey! | ||
| Djkaplan |
"I warped 5 freekin rotors...yup...5." I'm on my 3rd one. I don't think I'm hard on the brakes, but I take them close to their limits sometimes. I've never been totally satisfied with the large conventional single disc on my M2. A change to Lyndall pads seems to have aleviated the rotor warping problem, but there is still the feel issue and the odd habit of the brake's 'touch point' moving in the lever's range of motion, especially after a fast wheelie that comes down with the bars turned a little. That big rotor must be flopping pretty good and pushing the pads back. It's not a good feeling when you hit the brakes the first time after that. But you know what? I've never even been close to tank slapper on my tuber. I wonder if less mass rotating around the steering head axis is the reason? I've had a few tank slappers on dual disc bikes that had way more rake and trail than my tuber. | ||
| Court |
>>>I've never been totally satisfied with the large conventional single disc on my M2. Doubtless the dual discs can do somethings, perhaps greater fade resistance, than the single perimeter rotor. But, be mindful you are getting those things at the expense of something else, in this case braking effectiveness. | ||
| Grancuda |
Not to piss on Courts opinion, but my dual disc setup is being installed as we speak. It's on my 1998 S1W, and i'll tell you boys this... I warped 5 freekin rotors...yup...5. Am i hard on the brakes? I dunno...but i never warped a single rotor on any other sportbike i owned, and they all had dual front brakes. So, i'll tell you my intial impression, and snap a few pics when i get the chance. BTW...the brake setup i have is EBC race rotors, pinched by Brembos from a Ducati 998. That should do the trick. How did you mount the calipers? Did you make your own brackets? | ||
| Milesvdustin |
How much cost and time is involved to put xb wheels and that nice front brake on an s1? Ive seen it a few times, just wondering how much that would run me. | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Doubtless the dual discs can do somethings, perhaps greater fade resistance, than the single perimeter rotor." I don't have a perimeter rotor on my M2. It has the conventional 340mm rotor. Still considering the move to a ZTL 2... but if a good deal comes up on a complete front end off a current literbike, I'll jump on it. Radial calipers (and dual discs) may be trendy, but they've worked magnificently on every bike I've tried them on. If there is a downside to the added weight of two smaller discs and smaller calipers, I didn't feel it. I do agree that two 340mm rotors and 6-piston calipers would probably create an issue with weight, though. | ||
| Court |
>>>I do agree that two 340mm rotors and 6-piston calipers would probably create an issue with weight, though. It would solve a marketing problem though. Ever wonder why the Buell rotor is on the (Message edited by court on July 16, 2008) | ||
| Buelldualsport |
Court and MikeyP A spirited discussion between a New Yorker and a Jersyite? Got to see/hear this Good Luck Buells to Alaska ALCAn 5000 2010 | ||
| Djkaplan |
"Ever wonder why the Buell rotor is on the left?" Well... mine's on the right... maybe I do need an extra rotor? Minor slip aside... ... it's on the right for aesthetics; to even out the look of the rear disc being on the left. That, and some people think that having single discs on one side front and rear will make the bike veer to that side. Ridiculous, I know - I never argue when I hear that, what's the use? I notice the 1125R has both discs on the right side. I don't believe I can recall any bike with a similar layout. | ||
| Cheeef |
Everybody--This tells me why I joined this group. I've been contemplating dual disks on my S3T and I've gotten more both-sides info and opinions, sans name-calling and finger-pointing, than I have from the 20 or 30 people and dealers I've talked to nose-to-nose, and the stax of stuff I've read. For what it's worth I think I'll put it off until I'm rich and bored. Even I'm not arrogant enough to believe I'm a better engineer that the Buell guys. | ||
| Court |
. .. and name for me one other company where you can stand a talk for 30 minutes with the engineer who designed the Buell dual disc set up and conducted the testing . . . | ||
| Buelldualsport |
Uh ? Give us a minute, we will come up with something Guess not Buells to Alaska ALCAN 5000 2010 | ||
| Djkaplan |
"This tells me why I joined this group. I've been contemplating dual disks on my S3T and I've gotten more both-sides info and opinions, sans name-calling and finger-pointing, than I have from the 20 or 30 people and dealers I've talked to nose-to-nose, and the stax of stuff I've read." We're not done yet. | ||
| Guell |
im going ztl on my m2 | ||
| Djkaplan |
If I go that route... I'm going ZTL 2. |
