| Author | Message | ||
     Rellim51 |
I've been fighting this little problem for a few weeks now and I am going to put my pride aside and ask for help. My bike is a 00 X1 with a Force exhaust, K&N filter, and race ECM. Other than that the bike is mechanically stock with 11K miles. Now for the problem: When accelerating hard (WOT) the bike seems to have a slight miss once the RPMs reach 5000. If I try to ride through the miss it feels like one of the cylinders is shutting down or it is hitting a rev limiter-usually around 5500. If I back off WOT slightly the bike will accelerate up to redline and the rev limiter kicks in like it is supposed to but as soon as I crack the throttle to WOT it shuts down again. I have checked for intake leaks and replaced all the seals and gaskets in the air box even though I found nothing. I replaced the fuel filter and recharged the K&N. The engine light is not on. I had the 10K service done and installed the Force exhaust, race ECM, and K&N at the same time and it seems to have started doing this a few miles after. I don't think the problem is related to the work done. I had the TPS reset at that time also. I checked the plugs and they look good other than the HD logo on them.  It seems to be worse the higher gear it is in which tells me it is load sensitive. Any input would be great. | ||
| Bad_karma |
Anthony Plugs,wires maybe voltage? If not some thing simple. Check and make sure that the butterfly in the throttle body is securely attached to its shaft. Joe | ||
| Sportsman |
My first guess is low voltage. Check for loose wires or a weak battery. | ||
| Rellim51 |
The bike starts fine. So I think the battery is OK. Where would I need to check for loose wires? When at WOT and while the bike is acting up you can ease off WOT slightly and it will quit missing and pull to redline. as soon as you go back to WOT it does it again. I am only talking about moving the throttle a 1/2" or so. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Clogged fuel filter? something like that? | ||
| Ratbuell |
Check your TPS (throttle position sensor), sounds like it has a flat spot at WOT. If you have a normal multimeter you can test it easily; unplug it and hook the leads to the signal and ground wires. As you rotate the throttle you should have a smooth sweep on the gauge (a needle VOM works better than a digital for this one). Any jumps or hitches indicate a problem. | ||
| Rellim51 |
I have replaced the fuel filter. It didn't change any thing. Where do I unplug the TPS? | ||
| Oldog |
trace the wires from the side of the TB opposite the throttle cable side, the leads are about 6" long the tps plug is round and has 3 contacts check the resistance from the slider to the 2 posts the TPS provides the ECM a signal between 1-5 v IIRC on the surface it sounds like its bad.  | ||
| Ratbuell |
Thanks for the pic Oldog...both mine are carbureted, no fancy-schmancy electronics, LOL. I keep a spare TPS and a spare hall effect pickup in all my turbo dodge cars, though. Funny how easy it is to donut a piston at 24psi of boost when the TPS tells the computer "you can dial back the injectors, he just closed the throttle". Heheh...oops. And when the hall effect goes...well, yer pushin. | ||
| Rellim51 |
Well I checked the resistance on the TPS and it ranged from .8 K ohms to about 3.4 K ohms at WOT. I was using a digital meter but as far as I can tell, the resistance increased smoothly. I don't see any thing wrong with the TPS. I checked the plug wires while I had my meter out and they checked out like this: Front cylinder(short wire)=2.4 K ohms Rear cylinder(long wire)= 6.3 ohms Both wires looked good visually I wanted to check the coil but I was not sure how to do it so I checked the resistance between the two plug wire terminals on the coil. I got 11.9 K ohms. I don't know if any of this will help in diagnosing the problem, but I hope it will maybe eliminate a few things. I also checked the throttle blade and it is not loose. | ||
| Mmmi_grad |
could be the temp sensor too. Only way to check that is have dealer hook it up and do a tps reset. TPS reset after engine reachs a certain stable temp. Temp sensor could be going bad and will show an erratic temp reading. Also if intake seals have not been replaced yet, DO IT ASAP. Before that spray brake disk cleaner around intake and see if rpm's change, if yes= intake leak. | ||
| Rellim51 |
I have never replaced the intake seals and it doesn't look like they have ever been changed but I tried spraying carb cleaner all around the throttle body and intake while running and it never changed anything. It looks very dry around the intake so I don't think they are leaking. I am still lost. | ||
| Mmmi_grad |
7 years on those seals and 11000 miles is a little heavy, but hey they past the test. I replaced mine last month for the age. Force exhaust, race ECM, and K&N at the same time and it seems to have started doing this a few miles after. I don't think the problem is related to the work done. I do. Has anyone put race gas in it? Race gas can ruin O2 sensors. | ||
| Oldog |
Wire resistance is good. coil testing readings and test points.  Do you have the original ECM? if so swap them, try riding the bike My 0.02$ BAd TPS-RESET, Wiring or ECM Issue The FSM indicates that WOT is a mapped range, the race mod is designed to be run with the race kit, it may be a little lean as the Force pipe is less restrictive. when you close the throttle just a little you are back on the o2 sensor. the stock ECM should do the same only worse if its a lean condition caused by map issue, electrical / sensor issues can cause this, the engine position system, other sensors. you need some test software to help. if the stock ECM runs with out this symptom your race ECM is possibly faulty. Other wiring and connectors should also be checked, prior to replacing any thing, Other Data the ECM should see .5 to 4.8 Vdc from the TPS The TPS/and cam sensor share 5v pin1 grey connector, +5v [Red \ White ] pin2 grey connector, TPS pos [violet yellow] Pin3 grey connector CP pos [green / white](B on connector) Pin 7 grey connector Ground [Black / white] | ||
| Rellim51 |
Let me explain a little further. It already had the K&N but I did put on the Force exhaust and race ECM at the same time. I ran about 2 tanks of gas through it and it ran fine but would have would seemed like a single misfire at WOT when above 5000rpm maybe once every 100 miles. I thought it was no big deal, just the nature of the beast. That went on for a couple of weeks worth of riding then it started to have several slight misfires during the same conditions. I had mistakenly put 91 octane in it instead of the normal 93 I usually run so I just wrote it off as bad gas and took it easy until I ran that tank out. 2 or 3 tanks later and it still hadn't cleared up but it was'nt doing it every time I ran it to redline at WOT. I would say it would do it 75% of the time. Now 2-3 tanks later it does it every time and it starts out as a slight mis but If I try to keep accelerating it feels like one of the cylinders is shutting down. My first thought was intake leak but I cannot figure out why it will not cut out below 5000rpm even at WOT. And it will pull to redline at WOT in 1st and 2nd gears fine. It is only when using 3rd,4th, and 5th does it shut down. I called my buddy at the dealer and he seems to think the coil is bad. I'm not really sure how to determine if it is bad or not. I have it scheduled for dyno time on Monday to see if they can track down the problem. I will probably take your advice and replace the seals just to be safe. Is it a hard job? | ||
| Rellim51 |
Oldog-thanks for the info. If I am reading the book correctly, I have too much secondary resistance? I am reading 12 K ohms. I bought the race ECM USED from a member here. He said he was switching to Direct Link but never said why. I hope it is not the ECM. I don't have the money for another one right now and I have noticed that the price of them went up on ebay. I have the stock ECM. I will probably take it to the dealer and swap it there so they can reset the TPS. | ||
| Oldog |
I called my buddy at the dealer and he seems to think the coil is bad. I'm not really sure how to determine if it is bad or not. your test said 11.2K factory spec for the same test is 5.5/7.5 K possible Coil. see above. then ECM swap if no change. intake seals need short allen wrench and tank removed. the TB seals are hard to press together just fiddley.. | ||
| Oldog |
Relim yes the secondary is to high, You definately have some sort of coil issue and it could be failing under heavy load. a close visual inspection for carbon trasking / burns corrosion etc I dont know who you got the ECM from Direct link in the wrong hands can ruin an ecm too, if a coil swap does nto fix it swap the ECM's | ||
| Rellim51 |
I just pulled the coil and checked the primary resistance and it is reading 1.6 ohms. This may be my problem. | ||
| Oldog |
Sounds like you have a good buddy at the dealer as he pegged it earlier. Glad to have been of assistance.... Ride Safe and keep us posted. | ||
| Rellim51 |
Well I took my coil to the dealer today to let them check it and verify my results. They did not have a Buell manual for my bike so we crossed the part number on the coil and it crossed over to a touring bike somewhere around the year 2000. They did have a book on that bike so they checked my coil using the chart in that book and it tested good. The testing method was totally different that what was posted above. I don't understand why they would be tested differently if they are the same coil part number. I guess I will just put it back together and wait until Monday to put it on the dyno. | ||
| Crux |
Rellim51, I'm have the identical issue on mine...it runs, but exactly as you stated in your first post. Try to post your findings if you would...might save me some trouble shooting. Thanks Rellim....(love this board) | ||
| Rellim51 |
I am going to put it back together tonight to get ready for a trip to Nashville on it this weekend so I guess I will just have to take it easy until monday. I will keep you posted. I kind of hope it is something simple like the coil but knowing my luck the coil will die about the time I get downtown Nashville and I will be stuck. | ||
| Oldog |
Rellim: I will post the FSM coil Test late tonight If you want. the Coil is out of spec and may be failing at Higher Frequencys (revs) also just for S&G swap the ECM and test it At WOT, Can you borrow a coil from any one? | ||
| Rellim51 |
Well, I took the Buell to the dealer yesterday after noon for them to check it out. When they made the first pull on the dyno the tech said "you have more problems than just the top end miss" see, ever since I put the pipe and race ecm on it the drivebility below 3000 rpm it terrible. You have to ease it up to 3000 rpm before you can accelerate agresively. I posted the problem on this board and was told by other Force owners that it is just the nature of the beast so I dismissed it and learned to live with it. The guys at the dealer are saying that it is not normal. They never got to make a full pull on the dyno because the bike will not pull from 2200 rpm when loaded in 4th gear. They said in the upper rpm it ran fine up to about 80% throttle but once they went past that it started to cut out and shut down. They thought it was an ignition problem so they checked the coil ( using a HD manual and test procedure) and they tested the wires and they both checked good. Just as Oldog said, they want me to put the stock ECM back on so they can dyno it again and see what it does. So I will try to find the stock ECM this weekend and take it back next week. It is not much fun when you only have a 2000rpm window to ride in(3000-5000). I will keep you guys updated. Thanks for the help. | ||
| Oldog |
Rellim: Paraphrased from the FSM. the fuel flow is "mapped" from idle to about 2700 rpm from there to nearly WFO its on the o2 sensor, above some point near WFO it goes back to map, sounds sorta familliar. Stock ECM / Muffler dyno run after an AFV reset- relearn. there may be other problems. Fuel pressure? you just changed the External filter. what condition is the pump pickup in? there are a number of things it can be but it sounds like a fuel issue does your shop have 02 gear on the dyno? | ||
| Rellim51 |
Thanks for the info. What is an AFV reset-relearn? I have not checked the fuel pressure but I do have a fuel pressure gauge. What should it be? I did not check the fuel pump pickup. I guess I have to remove the tank to do this? They put a probe up the tailpipe to check AF ratio. | ||
| Oldog |
AFV is average fueling value, its a moving average that the ECM calculates and adjusts automaticaly. basicaly the ECM AFV is reset the bike is then ridden at say 65 mph steady speed steady / throttle setting and after a few miles of this the ECM adjusts the Fuel Air ratio via the O2 sensor this value is applied to the control operation until it is changed. The spec on fuel pressure is 46 to 53 psi, After the guage and lines are purged of air and the engine is running at between 2500 ~ 3000 RPM,  you will want to relieve the line pressure, disconnect the pump 4 place wiring connector under the tank try cranking the engine for 30 seconds or more to relieve the pressure. the factory procedure has you connecting the FPTG to a valve on the feed line out of the tank (its capped) Purge it of air and then fill and run the engine while bleeding air out ( with some gas ) into a container, when bled the specs are as above. To check the Pump and inlet screen you will want to remove and disassemble the gas tank, I dont know if the pump can be removed with the filler in place. I would not do this untill the fuel pump failed the pressure test, you may have to rebuild or replace it any way then Can you get the AF ratio data at the bad running ranges? | ||
| Bad_karma |
Jim My 99 S3 fuel pump will not come out without the removal of the filler assembly. Joe | ||
| Rellim51 |
I dropped the bike off at the dealer today along with the stock ECM. I've been busy at work trying to finish a car for this week end. We have a BIG Goodguys show in Columbus, OH. You can see our work here. http://www.legenshotrod.com I probably won't be able to check on the bike until next week but I will keep you guys posted. |
