| Author | Message | ||
     Tattoodnscrewd |
Well .. I had the S1 dyno tuned yesterday finally ... (Well - I didn't, Dan Bilansky at Hal's HD/Buell in New Berlin did it) My tires were showing cords at the time so I didn't have a baseline run before the top-end rebuild ... so I will do my comparisons to a stock S1 (remember - this is a 97 S1, so it's non-t-storm heads..) I checked with one of the Buell driveline engineers who also has an built up S1 (although quite a bit more than mine) and he checked into it and a stock S1 will dyno out between high 60's and low 70's rwhp .. So for comparison's sake, I will use 72rwhp for a stock S1 as a baseline. My bike is setup with the following - -Out of the box XB heads and cylinders -XB9 pistons (higher compression) -Stock Lightning cams -S.E. selectable curve ignition module -Stock 40mm cv carb -Crossroads MaliAire air cleaner -Force exhaust Dyno results were: (I don't have the graph yet, will post it up when I get it) 97rwhp and 84 ft/lbs torque ... Going by these numbers, I had a REAL gain of nearly 25hp over a stock S1 ... I also learned that a Force exhaust actually prohibits real power except higher in the rpm's (I actually pretty much knew that- but I like the loudness) An S3 with the same setup except the Buell Race Exhaust and 44mm S.E. cv carb was doing between 105 and 108rwhp. I think I will be adding both when the finances and opportunity arise. But all in all, to gain over 20+rwhp without major engine mods, using bolt-on stock Buell parts really IS the best bang for the buck ! | ||
| Mikef5000 |
Those are awesome numbers! (But personally, I consider Heads, Cylinders, and Pistons major engine mods.) | ||
| Nocompromise |
That sounds awesome!! I do have a couple questions for you: 1. This is probably a dumb question, but why do you need XB cylinders? Can you use the XB heads and XB9 pistons with the stock cylinders? 2. Is there a better source for these parts other than to buy direct from Buell? Can you tell us the prices for these items? 3. How much dyno work (if any) did you put in to get it properly tuned? I assume you had to rejet the carb? Thanks for the info and enjoy your new firebreather!! If it's making that much power already it makes sense that a Race exhaust and bigger carb would give you another boost. | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
1. I don't know if they are actually required, but I believe the design is better for cooling, much larger cooling fins, take a look at my other post - notice how full it looks with the new setup .. really fills in the frame - looks impressive ! 2.You could probably buy used, but I went ahead and bought them all new, well - I traded detailing work for a few parts ... Buying all new - probably looking at around $1500 3.There was a few hours put into the Dyno-tune... But my carb had a dynojet kit (was recommended to not use and to use stock carb parts), and was running REALLY rich ... Initial pull on the Dyno was only 91+rwhp .. after a proper tuning it was 97+ rwhp ... was another couple hundred for the Dyno tuning .. but well worth it !! Right now the bike feels really strong, and fast .. was actually asked when I said I would put the race exhaust on and 44mm carb, how fast do you need to go ? At this point I figure I just want to maximize the setup there .. and at 105-108rwhp I will stop ... Plus I don;t have the finances to go further, here on out -gaining anything more than the 105-108rwhp that I am shooting for (and will get) will require much more work ...once you hit 100rwhp it requires the the same amount of money spent to get here just to pick up a 1/4 of what I did. Besides .. It's plenty fast as it is - and still streetable !! | ||
| Firemanjim |
" how fast do you need to go ?" Now there is a leading question, if I ever heard one!  | ||
| Scott_in_nh |
Nice number - good going! Considering thst these engines do some pinging at the stock compression ratio - are there any issues with the high compression? (Message edited by scott_in_nh on June 05, 2007) | ||
| Ratbuell |
The pinging can be handled with a proper curve on the selectable ignition. I know when I'm tuning my turbo cars I tend to pull out a ton of timing for every lb of boost...same thing, but to a lesser degree, for CR increases. Do you know what your final CR actually is - higher/lower than the 10.5:1 of the Thunderstorm? VERY impressive numbers. My only Q is (and only because I didn't get a chance to talk to the machinists today) - are the XB12 and XB9 same-bore, and the difference is stroke? Or do you now have a 984cc tuber?  | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
XB12 and XB9 are the same bore ... stroke is different ..still have a 1203cc tuber. And no - I don't have any final compression numbers, could/should do that ... It's about 11.5:1 - would be more than the T-storm - and it depends which t-storm engine you are talking about - My M2 with t-storm heads is only 10:1 compression .. and the S1 with Lightning heads stock is 10:1 .. so I gained about 1.5 in compression .. (based off a friend's bike that has the same setup only with no base gasket so his C.R. is actually higher...) I have put a couple hundred on with this setup properly tuned now and I gotta tell ya - it runs very well ! No issues to speak of as of yet - A buddy on an R6 was beyond amazed how fast it was - He tried to shake me and I kept right with him - although I think if we would have continued past 90-100mph he would have crept away, if not walked away from me .. True test though will be Thursday .. a few laps at Road America will test it thoroughly... I think that this bike will do pretty well on that track despite it being a faster track .. (Message edited by tattoodnscrewd on June 05, 2007) | ||
| Bad_karma |
Brian A lot of food for thought here. Sweet numbers. Joe | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
Here is the dyno chart.....  | ||
| Loki |
The extra fin area is essential for the XB chassis having the engine buried. On a tuber it makes an oil cooler obsolete. | ||
| Buellistic |
Loki: Are you 100% on that ??? In BUELLing LaFayette | ||
| Littlebuggles |
Nice numbers Brian. Wish I'd seen this before I had the top end refreshed this winter, labor wouldn't have been any more and I'd have even more power. Had to buy a new front piston anyway... So anyway, you gain six horses from them doing the dyno tune? That's a pretty good bang for the buck! Profile pic is nice too. -Mike (Message edited by littlebuggles on June 10, 2007) | ||
| Nocompromise |
Tattood, I'm seriously considering the same thing for my S1. On the NRHS website they are selling a billet piece to convert the XB heads to tuber mounts. I recall you saying something about the guys at Hal's "slotting" the head or something? Can you explain what this is? Did you do the work yourself? Is changing the heads and pistons (I think I'll just keep the stock cylinders unless there's a compelling reason to switch) a viable do-it-yourself job? Also, what exactly did they change when they dyno tuned it - the jetting? Thanks for any info!! You've got a sweet setup there. | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
I had some help from a couple friends with the build, but aside from assembling the head (which wouldn't have been so bad had I had the right tools) it was really not too bad ... We didn't use a piston ring compressor, with 4 eyes and 4 hands we were able to get the cylinders over the pistons fairly easy .. the rest is just following the service manual, minding torque values and the tightening order .. The stock motor mount holes can be widened/lengthened - I called it slotted because you are not going to make the holes bigger in height, just width - basically make them oval shaped .... (I didn't do this as a friend (thanks again Steve) works in a machine shop and fabbed up a nice chunk of billet for this purpose) ... but the guys at Hal's said it's no big deal to widen the holes on the stock mount as you only need to make up a total of about 1/2" .... The dyno tuning ... Once the motor was done I was running extremely rich .. so I decided since I wanted to dyno it anyway, I'd let the pros dyno-tune it .. they changed alot on my bike, had a dynojet kit and they dumped it for the keihin(sp?) jet kit and basically did pull after pull trying different needles,jets ..etc.. to get the most power and proper air/fuel ratio .. Expect to spend up to a couple hundred doing this .. but then your bike should run great after .. Biggest thing is to just take your time and make sure you follow the manual as much as possible .. do it right the first time .. other than that - Good luck and have fun with it!! (I also had a fully stocked (Heinekin and Mountain Dew) fridge in the garage for the occasion, the Heinekin was gone by time we were done .. maybe that is why it was so fun !! | ||
| Rick_a |
It's crazy a baseline run wasn't done beforehand. You really can't completely validate the improvement without one. All stock S1's I've seen ran on a dynojet (including my own) made mid 70's hp and low to mid 70's TQ. That compares favorably to Buells own crankshaft output numbers. There's so many variables between dynos, conditions, and bikes it really doesn't mean squat anyway. Still, it looks great though it's strange how the tuned run dropped off earlier than the baseline. | ||
| Rick_a |
The extra power (especially with the extra compression) will still have the running cylinder head temperatures quite a bit higher than they were. This isn't an 80 some HP XB12. It's probably around 10hp over a typical XB which is substantial. | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
It's crazy a baseline run wasn't done beforehand. You really can't completely validate the improvement without one. I really wish I had one -- was scheduled to... but I didn't get the new rubber on in time - rear was worn through after a 450 mile hard running day ..once I did get the new rubber it was motor building time and I was a bit anxious... strange how the tuned run dropped off earlier than the baseline When he did it he could have let off the throttle before bouncing off the rev limiter ... I think that's probable since power does maintain a bit over 7k ... In regards to the stock HP #'s I used .. using 72 is a safe bet as like you said, every dyno is different ... I used that # based on what an engineer at Buell told me they had seen on stock ones at the factory .. again - differences due to different dynos ... he said high 60's to mid 70's ... I gave the S1 the benefit and gave it 72 ... It's probably a fairly accurate assumption of the gains I got... although I think the Force pipe probably hindered the bike's hp numbers across the board, torque as well, in stock trim ! (Message edited by tattoodnscrewd on June 15, 2007) | ||
| Tattoodnscrewd |
The extra power (especially with the extra compression) will still have the running cylinder head temperatures quite a bit higher than they were. It does still get plenty hot under the seat .... I actually am planning to use an oil cooler on this bike ... Between buying the S1 in Jan, and all the crap I have done to it since .. not to mention the little things here and there on the M2 - I'm pretty sure I have exceeded by far my motorcycle spending allowance .... so we'll see how soon I get to it... |
