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Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 02:09 pm: | 
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For clarification, when I said "personalities", I did NOT mean I had a personality conflict with any of the principals or their employees.
I meant "personality" at a company level, like a "Pontiac vs. Buick" thing or a "Honda vs. Saturn" thing. Neither is better then the other, one just seems to "fit" me better.
Thanks Pammy, that sounds like a great way to address the issue. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 03:27 pm: |
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Does anyone know the difference between nominal and actual compression ratios in a stock XB12 engine at it's torque peak? What would we need to know to cipher the actual CR at peak torque.
Come on Aaron, I'm serious for old time's sake. I'd like to know if there is a way to analytically calculate that.
I'm also interested in knowing what the peak combustion chamber pressure is and its magnitude versus crank position and engine speed, and throttle position.
I love that kind of stuff. I know, go read the book right. I still have never got myself a copy of the Denish texts. Any other good engine tuning/technology books that you recommend?
If not Aaron then Wes? Ron? Brian? Richard Cronrath? HobanBros? Terry Parsey? Jens? Matt? Al? Dave Stueve? |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 03:30 pm: |
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Tripper
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 04:47 pm: |
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A peace offering. Sweet.
I've had dinner with Pammy and listened to her Sweet Yellow X1 bark out the stuff. Saw Wes sitting at the shop but could'nt get him to say boo.
I've shared an airplane with Aaron on the way to Tokyo.
I think their all top-o-the-world folks.
Come to think of it, I have'nt met Blake yet. Oh I'm sure he's ok. After all he has survived a night with MikeyP so he can't be all that obnoxious.
Could he??? |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 08:12 pm: |
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I can blend in with just about any crowd. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) |
Pammy
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 09:14 pm: |
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Please accept my most earnest apology about what you may or may not read...your choice, but I would prefer that you do,if you wouldn't mind showing me such great courtesy. Thanks in advance.
"** - Motor purchased on March 6th, 2002, with about 1800 miles on it since the initial build. Suffered a catastrophic valvetrain failure on March 17th, 2002. Rebuilt by Aaron Wilson using parts & services purchased from Cycle Rama and Axtell. Ran magnificent after that, set a Bonneville record at over 200mph. Has not suffered a major failure since. "
Wow! I was going to let this go but I see instead of reposting, someone just keeps changing their posts.
Pray tell Aaron, what exactly let go in the valve train? And where did you get the motor and what was the history on that particular motor? If we are going to air some laundry, let's air it.
You all may be interested to know that that very engine had an exact twin. It still runs today with nary a problem. Both built at the same time with the same components designed by the same man and so on and so on.
Aaron's motor went to a road race team in Miami. The guys(in Miami/not Cycle-Rama)installed the motor and transposed the oil feed line with the oil return line. There was damage and the owner of the team went ballistic. He gave the motor to his cook and Cycle-Rama repaired some marginal parts and the SAME Miami guys re-assembled the motor. It was then put into a street bike(a complete S3) by the folks in Miami along with a Baker 6 speed(again by the folks in Miami). I didn't even sell them the tranny, but they call me up awhile later and ask me how much fluid to put into a baker 6 speed. I tell them and the guy tells me about the first Baker they install in the bike and how they didn't realize they needed to put fluid in it. Not to their discredit,as this was there first foray into the American V-Twin genre'.
Speed on up to Feb 2002. I get a call from Aaron Wilson who is going back and forth with a guy named 'Stoner' and he wants to purchase this S3 and the guy says it has this Cycle-Rama motor in what do I think? I tell him the afore mentioned history, but I think the motor will be O.K.
Aaron picks up this complete (sweet)S3 with a $10,500.00 motor and a $2k tranny in it for $9500.
He rides it around Daytona with sweet Susan in tow, takes it home and puts it on the dyno and runs it quite a few times and tries to tune it in.(Keep in mind, Cycle-Rama has never tuned it)Well there becomes a valve train issue. Aaron takes the motor apart and, low and behold, finds that a valve spring retainer has broken. Just one valve spring retainer. It was a name brand lightened(perforated) valve spring retainer. Did Cycle-rama manufacture the part? No. Did Cycle-rama in any way shape or form cause the part to fail? Nope.
I could continue on from here but I won't. This is the part that I wish you all to see, only because someone is trying to lead you to believe that Wes would build an unreliable motor. It simply isn't true.
Also, keep in mind that this is what Wes and I do, and have always done, for a living. It's not a hobby, we don't have a 'regular' job to go to. It is truly the one 'basket' in which all our 'eggs' are stored. This is how we feed our kids(and animals). It's how we pay our mortgage and send our children to school. But above all that, it is our passion.
If any of you spent one day with Wes you would get a true view of a most sincere and dedicated man. He is absolutely the wisest and smartest man I have ever known. He is humble and caring would never stoop to the triviality that has been shown him on this thread. I am unbelievably saddened by the disrespect bestowed on a truly great man.
I am tired of your accusations and e-mails and threats. Say what you want, do what you will, but you will NOT degrade Wes or his work without consequence.
Now, if you folks want to hear some stories about stuff that we DID blow up...just let me know. Me an Ol' Capt. Pete have a doozy of a story on that subject.
(Message edited by pammy on October 14, 2005)
(Message edited by pammy on October 15, 2005) |
Nrhs
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 10:45 pm: |
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Oh for crying out loud. Post after post you try to suggest we did this wrong or that wrong on Ryker's heads. Then you try to discredit us even more by comparing a 12:1 motor on Nutec to an 11:1 motor on pump gas and you even have the gall to significantly understate the difference. And now you're surprised and upset that someone took a jab back? It's okay for you to attack us but we can't say anything back? Yeah, OK. Be upset. Just remember who initiated this ••••. BTW, the post was only edited because Blake's post was so misleading, so you can thank him. Anyway, I happen to think that those retainers were totally inadequate for that application. You're free to disagree, but the big expensive pile of broken parts says otherwise.
What do you say we just stop this crap, go back and remove it all, and walk away?
(Message edited by nrhs on October 14, 2005) |
Pammy
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 11:10 pm: |
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"Just remember who initiated this ••••."
Who was it? Keeping in mind that I didn't delete any of my posts like you did.
"Oh for crying out loud. Post after post you try to suggest we did this wrong or that wrong on Ryker's heads."
Show me this transgression.
"I happen to think that those retainers were totally inadequate for that application."
What application is it to which you refer? |
Easy_rider
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 11:23 pm: |
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"Just remember who initiated this ••••."
eztobebad_uk?
If only my forks question got this much interest... Then again, I keep coming back here to "As the V-Twin Churns" myself! |
Peter
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 02:15 am: |
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Blake,
I know you are helping me with my Dakar attempt, and I thank you, but I still have to say, in as friendly a manner as possible, that you are sometimes so transparently full of ••••, that it amazes me  |
Tripper
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 04:07 am: |
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oh boi
Hey Peter. They got any beer in Amsterdam? I'm gonna be coming through on the 25th. Gotta get outa this crap London fog. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 11:29 am: |
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Peter,
The fact that I'm very eager to help out a little (wish I could do a lot more) in your Dakar effort should in no way detract from your prerogative to be constructively honest with me, ever. Friendship for me is never contingent upon my friends towing my line or seeing things my way. Respect, yes. Blind loyalty, no. You especially should certainly know that very well about me.
As far as me being transparently full of it, well, I'm not sure you are in an objective position to make that determination. But I do appreciate your friendly opinion. The bottom line is that you and I disagree entirely on the issue. I'll just close by saying that one of us has tried his best to understand the entire story, seeking all points of view on the issue; one has not. 
(My previous post above removed at the request of Ms. Brown, Owner - Cycle-Rama.)
Tripper,
Good news! No beer for Peter! He's in Dakar training! So there's even more beer left for you. |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 12:55 pm: |
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>>>>I'll just close by saying that one of us has tried his best to understand the entire story
Yep. And I am staying out of the fracus.
This is like trying to race to the end of the treadmill. |
Bubabuell
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 01:05 pm: |
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Wow this thread reminds me of the recent one on the Gilroy Indian m/c site where two builders yelled at each other over their superior building skills in regards to the PP100 engine. After the dust settled it was agreed that the PP100 was a lousy engine out the door and requires mucho $ to even get it run dependably. So in the end...I guess no one won.
(Message edited by bubabuell on October 15, 2005) |
Bandm
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 01:26 pm: |
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If this were an S&S motor
Aaron's motor went to a road race team (WARRANTY VOID, The Company shall have no obligation under this warranty if the Engine is used in racing or similar competitive activities) in Miami. The guys(in Miami/not Cycle-Rama)installed the motor and transposed the oil feed line with the oil return line. (WARRANTY VOID, Company shall have no obligation under this warranty in the event that the Engine becomes defective in whole or in part as a result of improper installation) There was damage and the owner of the team went ballistic. He gave the motor to his cook (WARRANTY VOID, warranty coverage will automatically terminate if the original Consumer Purchaser sells or otherwise transfers all or any portion of the engine) and Cycle-Rama repaired some marginal parts and the SAME Miami guys re-assembled the motor. (WARRANTY VOID, the Company shall have no obligation under this warranty for defects in the Engine caused by alteration including, but not limited to, polishing; powdercoating; painting; removing or reconfiguring any components; modification, repair, or unauthorized service of the Engine) It was then put into a street bike(a complete S3) by the folks in Miami along with a Baker 6 speed(again by the folks in Miami). I didn't even sell them the tranny, but they call me up awhile later and ask me how much fluid to put into a baker 6 speed. I tell them and the guy tells me about the first Baker they install in the bike and how they didn't realize they needed to put fluid in it. (WARRANTY VOID, the Company shall have no obligation under this warranty in the event that the Engine becomes defective in whole or in part as a result of improper installation, break-in, maintenance, or use, or any other misuse or mistreatment of the Engine) Not to their discredit,as this was there first foray into the American V-Twin genre'.
Speed on up to Feb 2002. I get a call from Aaron Wilson who is going back and forth with a guy named 'Stoner' and he wants to purchase this S3 and the guy says it has this Cycle-Rama motor in what do I think? (WARRANTY VOID, However, warranty coverage will automatically terminate if the original Consumer Purchaser sells or otherwise transfers all or any portion of the engine)I tell him the afore mentioned history, but I think the motor will be O.K.
Aaron picks up this complete (sweet)S3 with a $10,500.00 motor and a $2k tranny in it for $9500.
He rides it around Daytona with sweet Susan in tow, takes it home and puts it on the dyno and runs it quite a few times and tries to tune it in.(WARRANTY VOID, the Company shall have no obligation under this warranty for defects in the Engine caused by alteration including, but not limited to, polishing; powdercoating; painting; removing or reconfiguring any components; modification, repair, or unauthorized service of the Engine) (Keep in mind, Cycle-Rama has never tuned it)Well there becomes a valve train issue. (WARRANTY VOID, It is the responsibility of the original Consumer Purchaser to cease operation as soon as a defect or malfunction is identified or suspected. The failure to cease operation once a defect or malfunction exists can cause substantial damage to the Engine that could otherwise be avoided) Aaron takes the motor apart (WARRANTY VOID, In addition, the Company shall have no obligation under this warranty for defects in the Engine caused by alteration including, but not limited to, polishing; powdercoating; painting; removing or reconfiguring any components; modification, repair, or unauthorized service of the Engine) and, low and behold, finds that a valve spring retainer has broken. Just one valve spring retainer. It was a name brand lightened(perforated) valve spring retainer. Did Cycle-rama manufacture the part? No. Did Cycle-rama in any way shape or form cause the part to fail? Nope.
And sold at least one more time?
And taken apart at least one more time?
http://www.sscycle.com/catalog17/Warranty/html/Warranty_8.htm?
Three things I've learned:
Warranties protect the Manufacturer not the Consumer.
Modified Motor Warranties end the first time the motor is fired up.
Homebuilt Aircraft have "Experimental" on them for a reason. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 02:02 pm: |
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revtech sells engines with a speacial twin tec igntion system that limits RPM's to 5700. Change the ignition and VOID the warranty.
Taking a american V-twin to the power and speed levels that the engine builders are doing is awesome. Selling those type of parts to people (none experts) who then adjust, tinker, and then ride the holy •••• out of them. Problems will happen.
Incorrect timing adjustment, bad carb tuning, bad fuel, bad oil, poor torque wrenches, bad cam timing, inproper break in, etc etc are all things that the engine/head builder can't control once the items leaves there shop. just like the above posting says. Warranty voided by end user.
How about some postive things from the great engine builders and people who use there products..
Such as my XXXX engine has xxxx trouble free miles.
More positive things and less negative. Just makes everybody look bad. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 02:39 pm: |
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WHAT Ryker77 SAID |
Pammy
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 03:24 pm: |
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On a positive note, a group of our customers went to the Teresi dyno drags today and so far, they all have 1st place trophies. And it's a big crowd.
Another positive note is that Chuck Jones, who I sometimes refer to as 'THE GREAT CHUCKHOLIO' is in Rockingham NC as we type and is the number one qualifier at this time.
Another positive note is that (and this is always) I have one of the best freakin jobs in the world! |
Oldog
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 05:15 pm: |
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Pammy:
Congrats on the results! |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 06:03 pm: |
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Retitled the topic. Removed the "NRHS Stage-3". No good reason to associate NRHS with the topical problem. And even if there were a good reason, the first recourse, as already affirmed in this thread, should be to contact the applicable shop/vendor directly, not publicly.
We should have fixed the title from the start. My bad, and I apologize to NRHS for not catching it sooner, and hope everyone there will forgive our lapse in custodial responsibility. |
Tripp
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 06:08 pm: |
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 outstanding!!! |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 06:43 pm: |
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Pammy and Wes:
CONGRATS!
Court |
Pammy
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 07:11 pm: |
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At the end of the day, after Cycle-Rama entered 5 bikes and did the top end on a 5th bike entered(by Jim's HD). Cycle-Rama garners 3 1st place trophies and 2 second place trophies...we had 2 bikes in the same class and one bike was running in the same class as Jim's HD(the top end we did for their shop V-Rod) Congratulations to all our customers!!!
Ron Anderson/Twin Cam 1st Place
Bob Roman/Twin Cam 2nd Place
Cliff Stoufer/Evo 1st Place
Jim's HD/V-Rod 1st Place
Mike Marsh/V-Rod 2nd Place
Cliff Stoufer/Hayabusa 1st Place (and 206HP) yeah baby!
A couple of these guys were doing something like this for the first time...Good show! |
Pammy
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 07:15 pm: |
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Oh and Chuck didn't make another run for the day...it's costly running a Pro Dragster so stradegy must be used. But he has finished the day of qualifying #4. Way to go Chuck!!! |
Pammy
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 07:18 pm: |
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Hey could someone do me a BIG favor? Could this be posted as well in an appropriate area? I would appreciate it. I am unqualified to do so and I have a date with my lovely daughter.
Thanks Court. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 07:37 pm: |
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Bandm,
To be fair, I don't think Aaron ever expected warranty repair service. That said, for the cost of material only, Cycle-Rama provided/spec'd the record shattering "perfect" racing motor that sprung from the skeleton of its unfortunate prior incarnation. To be fair Aaron gave Cycle-Rama credit for the engine and the record.
Fair enough? |
Peter
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 01:28 am: |
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Blake,
It was a jab at your posting style, not at our perception of events.
Trip,
I'm in Sittard with a performance on the 25th, but could be in Amsterdam on the 26th. Are you there for the weekend, or...?
Pammy,
Also congrats. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 03:11 am: |
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Oh... then never mind... and boy do I feel silly.
I guess you could call me an adjective enthusiast. |
Peter
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 10:54 am: |
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...as in 'offering flowers and smilies with a knife behind your back' style of posting.
In the same vein that my post was written to you  |
Panic
| | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 01:32 pm: |
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Re: When you alter an ECM or jet a carb, one of the prime objectives is to balance the air/fuel. So I would think things would be a bit more acceptable in the eyes of the law
If they were interested in energy conservation that would be true. However, they have their tree-hugger derived shopping list of evil particles, and a 12.5-1 mix (WOT) will probably fail due to unburned hydrocarbons, and 15-1 (cruise) will probably fail due to CO and NOX. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 02:19 am: |
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Peter,
 Sorry bud, your imagination is way off track. There's no knife hiding behind my back, other than the one still firmly buried there that is. 
While I still feel a lot of sadness and disappointment and yes occasionally irritation/anger, there is absolutely no vindictiveness or hatred here.
Now please end the personal critiques here. This is not the place for it. Feel free though to start a new thread, "Criticizing Blake", if you want; fine by me. |
Peter
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 12:09 pm: |
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As you wish. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 09:45 pm: |
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Pete, I met a guy once or twice sometime ago and despite many good and bad points I saw in this guy I had little reason to discount him as a friend or even just an associate.
One day this changed an unbeknown to him I saw behind his back a knife he'd been hiding for sometime. This knife had already been used so very discreetly that not even its victims knew they'd been cut by it. I however did though. I'd witnessed with my own eyes how sharp and how deep that knife had already been pushed.
Those victims I too considered friends just as much or as little as I did him but what had been revealed to me left me in a very awkward situation . I didn't want to have to make a choice so I kept this to myself until one day I happened upon a small and rather insignificant, or so I thought at the time, circumstance. Little did I know then what would unfold but also how much I had for some tiny little insignificance blotted my copy book with this guy because of one small comment I made on an internet forum. Forgiveness for my comment, despite the truth of its content, it seemed at any cost was not on his agenda and despite his skills with a knife and it having really nothing to do with me from a business point of view where he stuck his knife it was he who forced me to make a choice as it was my friends who he was stabbing in the back.
There are those that know more to this than you do and like you they choose a path that suits. In some cases it's for more than just suiting that they choose. I have come to find that some peoples choices do not always fall upon what I would judge to be the reason of the righteous. It seems that blind eyes are turned by some because there's a bigger picture that involves a whole other agenda that digs an even bigger hole. Let me say that in my opinion motorcycles seem to figure more than people. That for me is beyond real reason. People count more than motorcycles. My support has always been with the people and I absolutely with my hand on my heart promise you one thing. That won't change. Not for the betterment of my pocket. Not for the luxury of displaying a trophy or three on a mantle shelf. Not for my name in bright lights as the best there is. Not for any reason.
I have another problem too. I'm soft in the head and sometimes can forgive people even when they seem to be beyond forgiveness. In this instance all I've seen from the guy once hiding a knife behind his back is he now wields it openly in public to some. The clever part is though, to some his knife is invisible because of the clever way he wields it and if I was to offer a thought of my own I'd say this. It's a shame you're one of those who can't see the knife- or maybe you can but you've no reason to. There are some really nice people caught up in this comedy. The knife man is not and never has been one of them and I doubt he could ever be forgiven.
Rocket |
Ceejay
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 10:21 pm: |
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Rocket-I have no idea for who or what you are referring to but you definitely have a way with words-as far as internet words go, and have made me think about some of those I come in contact with on a daily basis. the knife has gotten me a few times, as I were unaware... |
Peter
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 03:42 am: |
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I have never seen any FACTS to support your point of view Rocket.
My experience is the complete opposite. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 05:29 am: |
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Lucky you Peter. Looks like you may get your very own "Criticise Peter" thread. 
Seriously though guys. This isn't the place for it.
And for the record, I'd forgive the knife man. |
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