| Author | Message | ||
     Ezetobebad__uk |
Hi there from Brian UK. Below is a request for information that I sent to Nallin Racing (awaiting reply). I have been searching through archives But I am confused by what i have so far digested there. If you guys have time perhaps you could advise me on my project, for example will my std cams be okay with this set up, best muffler, reliability, rwhp ect. thanks in advance Brian First I will outline my spec, as follows. Buell S1 1996/7 Lightning base unit currently in need of XB heads for tuning. I have HSR 42 carb, Buell race headers, Kuryakyn supercharger & Buell race ignition module at present.(none of which are fitted until I get Heads) I now require XB stage 3 Nallin heads I also require a muffler to suit tuned spec Please advise on specification of XB heads to suit my unit. I do not want to go for a big bore kit & wish to retain the standard pistons & cams, unless you advise otherwise. If we can agree on a spec to suit my needs then I will require some ‘fitting’ advice. Can you quote me price for heads to suit (inc shipping costs) & a price for a muffler Please can you quote a realistic rwhp figure that my be achieved using the above set up. I intend to purchase the items from you in aprox 4-6 weeks once I am satisfied with the service you have to offer. Thanks Brian | ||
| Spiderman |
Whith a XB top end (that's the standard XB 9or12 heads and XB12 pistons) and the same cams you have in you bike, also the combo of pipe (KT COmponents)and intake (Custom Barnett CF intake Simulare to the racing Ham Can) with a 40mm CV carb I tuned my M2 to aprox 92 RWHP | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Just to let you know I fitted '04 Sportster heads to my 97 M2 this winter and sold the standard Lightning heads straight off no problem for £200. Steve steve_s@ukbeg.com www.ukbeg.com | ||
| Grndskpr |
If you have a Buell Race header, i think the only 2 options for a muffler are a Bueel race muffler and a D&D, i of course could be wrong Spidy??? R | ||
| Loki |
Currently running (stock)XB heads and cylinders(cosmetics)on my '97 S1. Put new rings on the stock S1 pistons. Exhaust is a standard "race" header with an external disc Supertrapp. Stock (rejetted)CV40 carb, to be replaced with a mikuni in the next couple months. No dyno until the mikuni is installed. Seat-o-pants says way to cool of a set-up. Look in th KV under the "Pistons - not the detroit types" and "firebolt heads for an S1". | ||
| Spiderman |
Skipper, You are correct sir! You can use the lighting flat top piston BUT that will only produce 9.7 to 1 comp (what the 04 and up sporty's run) The XB12 pistons have a littl bump in the cent that raises it to 10 to 1 | ||
| Ezetobebad__uk |
Thanks guys, If compression ratio is reduced from 10.1 to 9.7 whilst retaining standard lightning pistons can anybody give me a horse power loss that I will incur? There is much to consider doing this upgrade ..I can see I will have to do much more investigating so I get it right. thanks Brian | ||
| Henrik |
The older Supertrapp IDS muffler will fit on the race header as well. However, you'll need to beef up the muffler intake with some welds and brackets, as they've been known to snap right there. Henrik | ||
| Sportyeric |
I call bulls@#$ on Spidy! The XB12 would have flat tops, while the XB9, with the same heads but fewer cc's, needs the bump on the piston to keep the 10:1 CR. I think an XB 9 with flat-tops would get you 9.7. In any case, though, I think that the choice set-up is to have the XB heads milled with a 15 degree cut to accept T-Storm pistons. | ||
| Alex |
Spiderman is correct, the XB12 piston uses a small center bump to get 10:1. The xb9 piston uses a "real" dome. Brian, I can give You some information on heads, cams and carb. You should have stock Buell cams which are fitted in all tube frame engines beside US M2s (they use Sportster cams). These cams are capable of producing over 100hp rear wheel with the correct setup. One way to go is to use ported TS heads with TS pistons (stock valve size is completely big enough to get over 100 horses!). The other way is to port the older Lightning heads (same as SE heads) while using TS valves and maybe install TS pistons. Be aware: heads using much bigger valves than stock TS (like 1.9"intake and 1.6" exhaust) easily run into problems with TDC lift numbers. You need to cut big valves deep into the seat to get enough space between the valves during valve overlap. This significantly reduces low lift flow and requires to open up the combustion chamber which reduces compression ratio. If You want to go big valves You need cams with less TDC lift numbers like Red Shift 585. Unfortunately these cams will add horsepower at high revs (which is actually not to good for a 3 13/16" stroke engine). Last but not least: forget about the Hypercharger. It really kills flow. Use the K&N air filter that comes with the Mikuni HSR 42 carb. That´s about the best You can do. Any more questions? Feel free to ask. Best regards Alex M-TeK Engineering (Message edited by Alex on March 08, 2005) | ||
| Spiderman |
Sporty, It is all about deck height, piston design and stroke. The XB, 9, 12 and newer rubbermounted sporty's all use the same hed design. (with the exception of color, fin cuts and crank case breating system) | ||
| Loki |
I wanted to cry foul on the piston statement also. I have only seen pics of the T-storm and XB12 pistons from the side. No noticeable hump on the XB vs. the very noticeable TS dome. | ||
| Spiderman |
Listen The XB12 piston is a flat top, It has a Bump in the center like a nipple. Thats what brings up the comp. I never said it was domed like the T-Storm. The XB9 piston more closley resembles a T storm. | ||
| Uwgriz |
And will give you a CR in the neighborhood of 11.2:1 IIRC. | ||
| Loki |
The XB9 piston "more closely resembles" a TS?  I give you the 12 has a "bump" vs. the 15 degree dome on the TS. If the 12 has a bump the 9 has a mountian on it. | ||
| Spiderman |
Ok whatever apparently we are all talking about two diffrent things?? Has anybody here besides me seen a XB12 piston next to a Sporty 1200 Piston??? If so then you know th ebump I am talking about. | ||
| Sportyeric |
I was basing my knowledge of the matter on the power of pure logic, with a desire for quick points by a decisive identification of a possible slip-of-the-keyboard from Spidey. If facts have gotten in the way of my argument, since I've never actually seen an XB piston, I withdraw my analysis. 'Pologies, Spidey. Didn't want to start something. | ||
| Loki |
easy way to settle all diffs of opinion. Pics of a TS, 9, 12, and a new sporty piston for comparison. | ||
| Koz5150 |
easy way to settle all diffs of opinion. Pics of a TS, 9, 12, and a new sporty piston for comparison. How boring... I prefer dueling pistols at noon! | ||
| Ezetobebad__uk |
Hi, I recieved a reply concerning my email to Nallin, as follows; Hello Brian, Here's what I would suggest. I would go with the XB style heads ported to stage II, as the combination is too mild to see a big gain from stage III. As far as a muffler I would go Supertrapp IDS as it provides good power across the board, and it's one of the few performance mufflers left for the older, small header, tube frame bikes. Your cams and pistons are fine and should work out well in this application. I will have to have a shipping address to accurately calculate your total, but the heads outright at stage II will set you back $1426 USD while the muffler runs $376.95 USD. If you get me your shipping address then I can calculate exact shipping and a total. As far as power production I would expect to see you in the 90's at the rear wheel with that set-up. If you have any more questions please feel free to contact me. Thanks for the inquiry, Justin Schilling Sales Manager NRHS V-Twin Performance It seems my set up is too mild to justify stage 3 heads, 1 - why is it too mild 2 - If I use XB pistons & hotter cam will it then be enough to support stage 3 heads 3 - Will i have to use 1250 jugs? (i personally do not think it is worth splashing out my bucks for 50cc extra that will yield maybe 2 -3 bhp more max) 4 If I opt for xb /ts pistons will i have to get pockets cut for adequate valve / piston clearance? (or would this factor be governed by cam duration?) 5 - what bhp will my lightening heads support? 6 - Perhaps I should just stick with lightning heads & stage 3 them instead? Some interesting replies for me so far - thanks - especially the discourse regarding pistons & humps. I am learn}ing ...albeit at a slow pace but just when i conclude an answer I find 2 new questions waiting to perplex my simple mind. thanks all - Brian} | ||
| Ezetobebad__uk |
Regarding Pistons & compression ratio - I found this in the archives by Aaron - (note to author - I hope I have not taken the statement out of context) quote ''In '03, Buell came out with yet another new head, the "XB" head. The same head is also on the new 2004 Sportsters. This head goes back to a 62cc chamber like the Lightning head, so it again yields 10:1 with a flat top. The squish bands are not angled, so you get a squish band with a flat top. The valve sizes are 1.810/1.580 just like a Thunderstorm,'' | ||
| Spiderman |
Before I answer these questions I will tell you about my life with XB heads. I put STOCK XB heads and XB12 pistons. With a KT components Exhaust, Pro Series styl Intake, 40MM CV Carb, the cams you are running and stock Ignition I saw 92 HP at the tire tuned in. If you are lookin for more than that you will need to upgrade your cams, put in a 1250 kit, get a full exhaust system. ok on wit the answers... 1 a combo of pistons, pipe and cams (Nallin can match a piston to those heads) 2 Possibly but you will want to upgrade to a full exhaust system and better intake if you running a force intake. Even with a modified Force air cleaner Phat J lost 8 HP on his XB top ended 1250 kit 3 You may have to, to cope with the Cylinder fill you would get wiht the ported heads. and you will gain more than 3 HP. 4 If you opt for T-Storm piston w/XB heads the combustion chamber will have to be cut to match the heads, at this point get the 10.5 to 1 comp pistons from Nallin 5 YMMV but I would gess 80-90 on a good combo of cams, springs, exhaust, carb and air cleaner 6 If Stage three your Lightning heads you will need new pistons and were back at square one. My suggestion is. A new set of fresh Jugs, XB heads and XB12 pistons. Get rid of the Kuyryakin Hyper thang and put on a better intake and you should see 90 HP of course YMMV depending on Elevation etc...} | ||
| Alex |
Ok there, obviously it´s sometimes hard to make people believe what one says. So again: 1.the XB 12 piston is not what we call a flat top piston as a flat top piston has no material above the piston deck called a dome. The XB 12 piston has a round center dome of 45mm in diameter and approximately 1.5mm in height. 2. the XB valve sizes are NOT the same as Thunderstorm valve sizes. XB valves are smaller. If one wants to call a XB piston a flat topper and XB valves "same sized as TS" he may want to do so. If You work in the Buell tuning and head porting business even some tenth of a mm regarding valve size can make a huge difference for head porting as You face a different "valve size to seat insert ID" ratio which can make or break a good flowing head. If You go the "big valves every time" way You certainly don´t have to care about some "slight differences". I have done XB heads with stock valves producing easily above 100 hprw in 1170 Big Bore XB engines so there´s not always a need for big valve conversion. @ Brian: I will answer all Your questions in a private mail today. Best regards Alex M-TeK Engineering | ||
| Mikej |
=== tangent comment === Alex, I clicked your profile and see a Knuck listed. Got a pic? Please? Mike likes Knucks, used to have a '42 model. Thanks. === I now return you to the regular discussion === | ||
| Alex |
I´m really sorry Mike but the Knuck is parked in a shady corner of the shop and is not really "dressed" to be shown on pictures (shame on me but I never found the time to restore it since I started the shop). My ol´lady´s Shovel doesn´t run either and the 56 KH is stored in pieces in the shelf. If I only hadn´t started this damn head porting thing............. Best regards Alex | ||
| Mikej |
The best pictures are often of bikes parked in a shady corner of a shop waiting for their time again one day. But understood, sometimes life takes over and projects have to wait. Take care, and thanks for taking the time to share on the site here. Mike. | ||
| Alex |
You´re welcome, Mike. | ||
| Rocketman |
Brian, you might want to consider when the courier knocks on your door with those parts you bought in the US he's gonna ask you for VAT + custom duty + a handling fee. I can't quote exact numbers but it is in hundreds of pounds for the figures you're talking. There are 'loopholes' available. You can claim it's a 'gift' and this must be stated when shipped by your seller of choice when the customs and shipping labels are filled in. I've never tried the 'gift' one with such high amounts of dollars you're talking but it has worked for me for much less. Another 'loophole' is to get the seller to ship the parts as 'display items only - not for re-sale' but I'm lucky in that I have my own business that can support such claims. If you are shipping to a private address perhaps you could consider shipping direct to a business you're friendly enough with to make the statement stand up on merit. One other 'loophole' is, do you know anyone visiting the US who can bring the stuff back in their luggage. You can most times get through customs without any hassle for duty VAT etc. Lastly, if you know any US servicemen\women stationed here they can get it sent in without the hassle. End of the day Brian, it pretty much falls down to chance. Hope this helps. Rocket | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
To expand on the above, I've found it generally works out around 8% import duty, £10 customs clearance fee and 17.5% on top of the total including the freight charge. To get an idea of the landed in the UK cost, I add 25% to the US cost and then convert to £'s. On average I've usually found that parts work out between 10 and 30% cheaper by shipping them compared to paying UK dealer prices. Hope that helps. Steve steve_s@ukbeg.com www.ukbeg.com | ||
| Ezetobebad__uk |
In response to importing fees, I recently purchased USED goods from USA. I found in this instance that I had no extra fees to pay when the goods were delivered to my home address. cheers Brian | ||
| Rocketman |
Don't let that fool you Brian. It happens often so the first time I got caught out I rang Customs & Excise. Parcel Force knocked on my door. This was a couple or four years ago but nothing's changed. Mr Force is holding a rather large but very light box. It contained a used carbon fibre scoop bought in the US off Ebay. Additional costs were £55 to cover duty VAT and handling of monies. Anything imported costing over £16 is subject to these types of fees. I told the Custom's guy like you I'd never had this happen before despite numerous such transactions. His words "You've been lucky". My advice? Take precaution and you'll be fine. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Oh yeah. I forgot. Another trick I've learned over the years. If I buy something off Ebay for example and it's a tad pricey, say more than £30 or £40, I always ask the seller to state on the declarations that the item cost and value is minimal. Obviously you wouldn't want to buy a brand new 'Mr Turbo' for a Zed Thou and upset some knowledgeable customs fella by declaring it cost a 'tenner'. This trick works well though if you're sensible. That said. A few months ago I bought some stuff from the US costing $110 and the seller forgot to do what I'd requested. The stuff arrived no problem but so did a bill from UPS about three weeks later. This approach was a new one on me. UPS were asking for about £19 if I remember correctly for duty VAT and money handling. I called UPS and told them a mistake had been made regarding the shipping instructions. What I needed to do next wasn't worth the hassle to save £19 so I paid up but I did ask what would happen if I refused payment. On behalf of Customs & Excise UPS couldn't \ wouldn't say - but they would have suspended my account. What does this mean in the real world I asked next. Simple. The next time someone tries to send you something UPS a little flag gets waved against your name and address and they say sorry but we don't ship to that name and address. Hope this helps. Rocket |
