| Author | Message | ||
     Sami |
Jeff, Occam's Razor prioritises simplicity over sensibility. I am not doing that here. | ||
| Hootowl |
You used the word simple. | ||
| Sami |
And sensible. | ||
| Aesquire |
I haven't mentioned vacuum. There's lots of that, in between other stuff. But you haven't answered the question. Pressure of what on what? I dig the metaphor, but "pressure" is the reasoned effect of the effect. ( of the Forces that move stuff, or hold it together, or push it apart ) You are completely skipping any mechanism or explanation of the phenomena. The demons breathe on the sails, and the ship moves... And I'll point out that while not mainstream until post Enlightenment in Europe, several science guys, and not a few Naval guys, while using the tools available, were able to figure out that sailing ships were solar powered. The sun heats the surface, which heats the air, and thus the air moves. ( a bit oversimplified, I skipped Coriolis effect, cosmic ray particles, planetary magnetic fields, and that broken star drive on the far side of the Moon that has fooled us into thinking the Speed of light is about 300K Klicks a second, instead of varying by Horgath number. ) I'm not by any means insisting that Sir Isaac got it all right, and certainly not claiming the current Science Establishment is to be trusted with such matters, as the Sun spins it's way around our World. I regularly have discussions on How Wings Work, with actual experts in the field, ( meaning they are more comfortable with the math ) and the Answer is "wings alter the total flow field vector by multiple mechanisms including direct impingement, vortex lift, ( relative vacuum ) etc. etc. ..." and the word pressure is used A LOT. But it's pressure of compressible gsses against the flying machine and the planet below. Not, "magnetism is just pressures" with no medium or mechanism. I mean, at least toss in "Quantum Foam" or "Aether". | ||
| Hootowl |
If you didn’t mean simple, you should have omitted it and only said sensible.  . The ‘and’ implies that you meant both were a true condition. | ||
| Ducxl |
"Atomic Suicide" published in 1957 sums it up perfectly | ||
| Sami |
Patrick, you believe in "forces" and "vacuum". There are no such things in nature. Einstein's General Relativity is inconceivable without the aether, he said so himself in his letters. Scientists have no mechanism or explanation for action. They need demons to explain action-at-a-distance, their theories are spooky like that. For example, you mentioned that sunlight hits the sail's surface and heats the air. True, but how does sunlight get to the Earth if space is a vacuum? The speed of light is not a constant, it has been measured to vary significantly. GPS satellites are evidence of the variability of the speed of light. | ||
| Sami |
Jeff, I did mean simple. And I did mean sensible. One does not necessarily exclude the other. That which is true is simple and sensible compared to that which is false. | ||
| Blake |
This is why I love Sami so much. He's so often right in ways that make your brain turn inside out. Some forums don't like such contemplation. But when you give it a chance... Sami is right, the term force is just a convenient way of accounting for the effect of a pressure that is acting on or though a specific area or region. Stress is pressure, though stresses in solids can behave differently than pressures in liquids and vapors. See Poison's ratio. Bravo Sami. So fess up. Did you formulate that understanding or come by it somewhere?  The Veritasium video on the unmeasurable speed of light: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v= And his other videos that burst the bubble on the state of present day "science." The Bayesian Trap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R13BD8qKeTg Is Most Published Research Wrong?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42QuXLucH3Q And of course the wonderful Rupert Sheldrake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TerTgDEgUE Heresy to many people. Such talk could get you banned on some forums. | ||
| Blake |
You can tell how many intelligent folks were attending Dr. Sheldrake's talk (see above link in prior post) by how many broke out in uncontrollable laughter at the 3:00 minute mark. There weren't many. | ||
| Sami |
Thanks for the kind words, Blake. Though I can't take all the credit. The understanding that there are no "forces" apart from the exertion of pressure is pretty ancient. The problem is that people these days are taught that "Ancient Bad, Modern Good". It doesn't always register with people that ancient may not be that bad and modern may not be that good. We shouldn't shy away from ancient wisdom and knowledge. I'll watch the Veritasium video soon. | ||
| Aesquire |
For example, you mentioned that sunlight hits the sail's surface and heats the air. True, but how does sunlight get to the Earth if space is a vacuum? Sunlight hits the Earth's surface. Local heating of the sail doesn't do much. It's the heated air on & near the surface of the land, sea, etc. that expands and causes pressure differences. Wind. And don't be silly. Sunlight gets to the Earth because the atmosphere is mostly transparent. Mostly. To visible colors/frequencies. The 8 light minutes of space between the Photosphere of our local star and the earth is also mostly transparent. There's a lot of vacuum out there. But it's between stuff. Maybe. Most of near Earth space is a pretty hard vacuum by industrial standards. Not nothingness, you can measure industrial ( aka very dirty ) vacuum by pressure or distance on average between molecules. On human scale, vacuum is very real and practical. Can I breath? How much heating do I get at Mach 25? How much drag? ( engineering questions! Not hypothetical ) Sidebar. I've never designed and built a man carrying flying machine that was fast enough for bothersome heating by friction and shockwaves. Hot air balloons don't count here, that's deliberate heating. It's amusing to read the performance estimates of early to mid 1940s jet planes before they discovered the "thermal barrier" out past the "sound barrier". Before you had to consider your windshield melting, the power needed curves showed that putting more powerful engines on would allow Mach 5 airliners. Oops. From observation, the "vacuum of space" has a certain variable number of particles in a given volume. Say 1 cubic Centimeter. The number varies a Lot depending on how close to a thing spraying particles. Lots near the Sun or a planet with a lot of atmosphere, less as you get further away. Someday we'll get the numbers for a light year away, but today's numbers only go out barely into the Oort Cloud. But Sami is really commenting on that small scale vacuum between particles where the weird stuff goes on. It's disingenuous to apply that to human scale stuff as a This Or That phenomena. It has to be figured in as a Classical Mechanics And Other way. So, taking the transparency of local space to Sunlight as a problem, you need to measure the particle density, AND the effect of the "stuff in vacuum at quantum and/or demon level" and it's effect on photons cruising through. At the 1 CC scale that may be too slight to pick out of the noise, and at the Light Century scale we don't have good data. We haven't put a camera out very far designed to look at the Sun's light in the detail to know what gets changed/filtered/etc. Or, we dunno. I'm still waiting for an answer. Pressure of what on what? "It still moves" Btw, Ancient Science and Engineering is on my hobby list. | ||
| Aesquire |
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| Tpehak |
If we can not measure the speed of light in one direction then the speed of light in particular direction does not affect our life and the universe and we can assume the speed of light we measured using the both direction method is the same in all directions and all formulas will work properly with this assumption. Once a formula will stop working because of the light has different speed in different direction we will know instantly what that speed difference is. (Message edited by TPEHAK on March 27, 2021) | ||
| Sami |
Patrick, "It still moves" is attributed to Galileo, but he never said that. I agree, something moves. My fingers move as I type this post. My muscles exert pressure on the keyboard and this lets words and sentences appear on the screen for you to enjoy and marvel at. Your question, "Pressure of what on what?" has been answered, for example in Blake's reference to solids, liquids and vapors. Though I would add to this list the other state of matter, namely plasma. As said before, there is nothing about space that is "empty". Rather, space is filled with stuff known as Planck particles. These Planck particles put to bed the notion of "empty space" and of "vacuum". This also explains how light travels from the Sun to the Earth. A motorcycle needs a medium to move forward. That medium is the road. Electricity needs a medium to move forward. That medium is the metal wire such as copper. Similarly, light needs a medium to move forward. That medium is the substratum of space constituting of Planck particles. Pressure makes action possible. No pressure, no action. "Force" and 'vacuum" play no role. | ||
| Aesquire |
So... It's been tiny little angels all along? Well,darn. | ||
| Sami |
Patrick, I don't mean to offend angels, I'm sure that they are nice once you get to know them. But we don't need them here to explain how light gets to the Earth. Do motorcycles ride on angels? Perhaps Hells Angels do, but most motorcycle riders drive on roads. Roads are the medium on which motorcycles move. Pressure (or stress or tension) on one thing placed on another thing allows for movement to occur. In case of motorcycles, pressure from the motor's combustion chamber is transferred to the wheels. The road acts as the medium of transfer, without which the motorcycle goes nowhere. Just as a motorcycle gets nowhere without a medium of some sort, light gets nowhere without a medium of some sort. Space is fake. What I mean by this is that "space" is not a place with nothing in it. The idea that space is empty or a vacuum is false. Space is made of something, just as the road is made of something. Common sense. | ||
| Aesquire |
The angels pass the Light along. Just as I banish Drag demons by streamlining the exposed tubing on my glider. Makes it harder for them to get a grip. Politely, of course. I'm not sure how you offend the tiny angels that pass photons along. Not cleaning your lenses, I suppose. Drag demons don't like to be pushed through small spaces. Acute angles too. They jostle each other and our machines too much, get jammed up and mill around blocking others. If you make their path smoothly constrict & expand they speed up as it tightens to keep elbow room, but you must expand their exit path at the holy ratios of at least 1 in 3, better 1 in 4, so they don't get confused, mill around in circles, and block passage for others. That speeding up is how a carb works. Faster demons are poorer, speed demons, you know, and pick up gasoline to feel enriched! | ||
| Sami |
Patrick, I haven't heard of drag demons, but I have heard of drag queens. Are you sure you're not confusing the two? The ones I have seen all looked like clowns. Drag queens have turned this world into a clown world. Drag demons exist in the same category as Dark Matter and man-made climate change, namely fiction. NASA is as credible as WHO. Both present fiction as fact. They've had a good run, so far. But people are starting to ask questions, starting to do research. But be careful, they warn us: You Must Not ‘Do Your Own Research’ When It Comes To Science https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/ 07/30/you-must-not-do-your-own-research-when-it-co mes-to-science/ The author is a NASA columnist. They don't want people to hold their feet to the fire. They are comfortable with the way things are. Go to bed, they say, don't do research. Leave that to the "fact checkers". I leave it up to the reader to decide whether leaving things to "fact checkers" is good or bad. My advice is to do your own research. Don't believe everything coming from WHO. Don't believe everything coming from NASA. Ask yourself: Who funds them? (Message edited by Sami on March 27, 2021) | ||
| Sami |
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| Ebutch |
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| Aesquire |
We had drag queens in some bars back when there were bars. Really fun places iirc. It's been decades since I lived in that neighborhood. And over a year since I was in any bar, I'm not a drinker. And, Covid & The Emperor... At least I assume you're talking about folk like the 4 Marilyn Monroes at the Halloween party. Drag demons are well known in aerodynamics circles. Race teams too. I've ample proof they exist by their actions. Oh, humdrum math guys just use equations and spreadsheets, There's quite some disagreement on labels and definitions, a veritable Balkanization of drag. I'm monodemonic in principle, myself. Sorta parallels society that way. I do use The 2 common version demons, Induced and Parasitic, and their sub sets, vortex & Interference, etc. When discussing The matter with pros. Saves time and theological angst. The queens you speak of are arguably entropic too, socially, but you're going to have to at least sketch out the cause & effect chain, and it's probably inappropriate on this thread dealing with physics. Oh, they exist. They're People. Normally I treat drag demons very secularly. Scholarly, even. ( which is becoming an insult in many contexts ) I ignore theology, mostly, and go to the equations, where closeness to Heaven & Hell may be determined if you chose the correct multiplier in the structural realm. Alas, I was too heavy to get a flight in the Gossamer Condor. It's 1.3 G loading maximum was for a 150 pound engine and I exceeded that load at rest. 1.3 is a Dangerously small number and the Gossamer Condor barely got there, it broke often in flight testing. Fortunately failure was at such low altitude that no injuries occurred in combination with a top speed below most recreational bicyclists. Plus with the wingspan of a jumbo jet and the mass of a Vespa, nothing happened in any direction quickly. Lots of wires for the parasitic drag demons to clutch. My last, so far, glider has a G limit of 6 with a 1.6 safety margin. 2.2 @ my normal weight. I doubt I ever hit 4 Gs. I've gone over 3 Gs in acrobatic maneuvers, but I'm quite cowardly. High angle of attack stirs up the Induced Drag demons, who love speed and low effort. Back go Establishment Science. Planck particles? Not sure if they are transfer particles. Other than quantum metaphor, which I'm not certain is a correct interpretation. I'm skeptical of the concept of transfer particles, baked as it is into the stew of confusion in my perspective on existence. But I'm pragmatic. I try to isolate the handwavium from practical applications, see also the famous one panel comic with the equations covering the blackboard with "then a miracle occurs" in the middle. But I'm open to new, or old, ideas. Dark Matter, unfortunately, is associated with suppression of dissent, like Global Warming. Imho there's something to be studied, but questioning the Dogma doesn't seem to inspire reasoned discussion. | ||
| Zac4mac |
I spent a few years chasing a BS in Physics at CSU Fort Collins. Had much fun with classic but struggled with Calculus. Nine semesters to get 3 Cs. Last few classes included Modern Physics, aka quantum. Too weird for me... Too many theories now with little data to point anywhere . I guess little demons make as much sense as any of the hundred theories on subatomic particles. Z | ||
| Sami |
Theories are a dime a dozen as I said earlier. I don't care that much about theories. It is not theories that build bridges, it is engineers. Theories are just that, theories. Models are just that, models. They are the map, not the territory. Studying Dark Matter is like studying unicorns, it is a wasteful endeavor. It doesn't exist. Dark Matter is Dogma. Questioning it is heresy. The speed of light as a "constant" is another Dogma. Questioning it is heresy. Man-made climate change is yet another Dogma. Questioning it is heresy. Drag demons make as much sense as drag queens, neither has a basis in science. | ||
| Aesquire |
Oh, I disagree. Lot of Science in Drag Demons. It's just a different terminology than Standard that actually is used, tongue in cheek, by people that actually understand the Science. Or fake it enough to fool some folk, like I do. Anthromorphic references abound. I know you were being sarcastic when you referred to angels and your desire not to offend. Science Education, at least as it was practiced half a century ago, seldom blamed natural phenomena on Human Evil, like the Current "Expecting the Right answers in math is Racist" crud. But they did usually run through the history of knowledge by staring with early, simplified, and incomplete ideas, and then more and more... less incomplete, we hope. Like Atoms. Greek indivisible stuff. 18th Century Elements. 19th century saw the discovery of Isotopes. ( What do you mean Helium isn't Helium? it's ELEMENTAL! ) And then radioactive decay, fission, and subatomic stuff. ( How can you split the Smallest Thing? Aaarggh! ) Then they invented LSD and we got Quantum mechanics. ( or was it the other way around? ) Hydrogen went from a featureless ball, to a tiny Earth-Moon system, to a cloud of probability, to..... Each step, each chapter, can be considered Wrong, Incomplete, or Holy Writ, depending on your point of view and unwillingness to learn new things. Studying Dark Matter is like studying unicorns, it is a wasteful endeavor. It doesn't exist. You might be right. I'm skeptical of it's existence, it looks like a patch on a wrong notion. But studying WHY they think Dark Matter is NEEDED to make their math come out might point to where they got it wrong in the first place. ...Questioning it is heresy. A yep. I always wanted to be an Arch Heretic. At least since the movie Lexx came out. There are a few Fictional Theories, that are handwavium by Sci-Fi authors that I really like. James P. Hogan in Voyage from Yesteryear had one that took the menagerie of Quarks and whatever-tons and went one level deeper. Basically there are tiny swirls of "space-time" that come in 2 flavors, dees & dums and in combination, triplets etc. make up all the Stuff you learn about today. This kind of theory has the advantage of not rocking the boat. In real life, Physics has too many contradictions for that, but the possibility that everything is really far more simple than you'd expect is very attractive. | ||
| Crusty |
-Honda Motorcycle Manual Circa 1962 | ||
| Sami |
Patrick, I know it was tongue in cheek, that is why I played along. No harm in some fun. You may know by now that I don't believe in the Dogma of the constancy of the speed of light. The speed of light varies by a lot, and it is by no means a constant. Going a step further, there are no such thing as "constants" in nature. You may disagree. So, how do these drag demons keep the speed of light constant? Do these drag demons get help from drag queens? I can only imagine that holding light constant requires the combined power of the two. Atoms don't exist. That is, the notion of there being indivisible matter is false. This also renders Materialism/Atomism obsolete. We know why they think Dark Matter is needed. They need Dark Matter because they have no clue. Dark Matter is an example of handwavium. Quantum Mechanical theories are a dime a dozen, it is safe to ignore all of them. That isn't to say that there are no "quantum effects". The semiconductor sector takes these effects into consideration when they produce chips for electronics. They are already mass producing 7nm transistors, and at that scale the "quantum effects" become prominent. I still want to know how drag demons hold back the speed of light. How do they do it? | ||
| Aesquire |
No, no, drag demons hold back cars and trucks and airplanes etc. From going fast and flying. Increase fuel consumption! Steepen my glide! They hold back runners, etc. Know your menagerie! There's a Reason America's Cup AC75 super yachts ride around on carbon fiber foils, to keep the 7 1/2 Ton boats inches above the water. Drag demons are much stronger in the denser medium. They can't be compressed together like in air. And their grip is better. Nothing to do with speed of light. That's why I asked about the little Light Angels that pass photons along from the Sun to the planets. You might have a different label, and I wanted to know what that was. Obviously, by measurements, and manipulated by, say, my prescription glasses and the Hubble telescope, the speed of light varies in different mediums. Presumably due to the ability or eagerness of the wee angels to pass photons along. I'm open to an explanation of the mechanism for light that moves the handwavium to a deeper level, or just uses different terminology. But it's the 21st century! Viruses are believed to be affected by the motivation of the group! Rioters, looting & burning, are safe. Bikers doing burnouts and drinking, are not. Math is racist. It's Demons Time. | ||
| Sami |
It has everything to do with the speed of light. How do drag demons hold the speed of light constant in a vacuum? What is their secret? We, the people, want to know. I have given you an explanation. Planck particles are the medium for light to traverse. The so-called "vacuum of space" has been disproven. There are no vacuums in nature. | ||
| Aesquire |
Drag demons get dizzy in space and can't hang on! Nothing to do with light, they work fine in the dark. So Planck particles? Angels. Terminology, schmirminology. Same thing. Invisible transfer particles. I'm skeptical. Doesn't mean I'm right. The whole concept of transfer particles? I dunno. Much of modern particle physics is based on the assumption of symmetry. If there's a positive, there's a negative. Up? Then a down. It's reasonably elegant, but still an assumption. That's why gravity annoys. Asymmetric effects. No push, just pull. And the fall off with distance is different than magnetism. Oh, sure, curvature of space... I'm waiting for the next level questions there. Dark energy? Occam! Answer your text! Tomorrow, how alcohol keeps miasma away. Myth? Or Whisky sales gimmick? Inquiring minds... |
