| Author | Message | ||
     Rick_a |
The classification of practice rounds was changed recently. It's all handled the same these days. The ATF I guess was tired of people improvising their own HE rounds...so they came up with new bullshit standards to make it all difficult to acquire. | ||
| Ducbsa |
One of the stories from the Battle of Leyte Gulf was a chief on one of the destroyers charging one of the huge Japanese battleships saying, "Great, now we have them in 40mm range!" | ||
| Aesquire |
C&arsenal Krag - Jorgensen .30 ( .30-40 Or at ) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oQAqNqaiQwY I find the ones I've shot to be delightful. The bolt action is Old School Smooth, the result of tight tolerances in manufacturing, with the last few tiny fractions of an inch filed & polished by hand. Then over a century of use, after a fairly brief, ( compared to other U.S. Rifles ) but active military war service. ( Spanish American War ) The manufacturing ( and wear ) aspect is much like the feel. Very much like a vintage S&W revolver, terms like "glassy" & crisp might be used. The transition from hand fitting parts to useful interchangeable parts, was in a sweet spot for function, but still expensive for labor. You get the same tolerances with modern machine tools, with no, or almost no, hand fitting. That's why vibratory tumbler finishes and modern coatings are SOP today. The Ruger Custom Shop, S&W Performance Center, and Ed Brown, among others, still put the human polishing hand-eye talent into their products. The price and pretty reflect that. Back to the Krag. I like the "half capsule" side loading but can see how it would suck if reloading while running or under stress. It's so Steampunk cool, though. I prefer Mannlicher en bloc clips to stripper clips. Ymmv. I'm curious about your opinions on the matter! Imho, the peak of en bloc designs is the Garand. Imagine an alternate history where Stoner designed machine guns but not the AR-10. The U.S. might have jumped from the M-14 to a 5.56 ( or better, the Brit .280 ) service rifle anyway. A Ruger Mini-14 just might have been adopted. ( Or a miniature version of the M-14 by another company ) Hey, it's familiar, training is the same... So that leads me to... en bloc 5.56 clips? Or would the AK competition inspire the "lots of box magazines" modern solutions ? | ||
| Aesquire |
Battle of Samar ( Leyte Gulf ) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdcvDiA3lE Damn. The 40 in question was a Bofors. Quite a bit bigger than a Marine Mk 19. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_40_mm_gun Just the thing for sailing near Somalia. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XzOm66SNmvo Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver. The pinnacle of turn of the century Steampunk big weird service revolvers. Zardoz! The above video is on the ultra rare .38 ACP version which could use 8 shot moon clips. I'd love one. Too rare to own ( afford ) and carry. Big honker, too. But dang! I'd be happy with a .455 Webley-Fosbery & happy to reload to shoot it. It's not iconic like a 1911... It's the Road Not Travelled. Makes me wonder what we would have today if the Full moon clip loading system had caught on? And Mannlicher style en bloc clips for rifles, like the M1 Garand. Would the M-16 in that alternate history use 10 round en bloc clips in a full capsule ( Krag - Jorgensen ) side loader for a 50 round capacity? | ||
| Rick_a |
It is still available technology in certain S&W, Ruger, Taurus, and Chiappa revolvers. I prefer mine a S&W in 45ACP. | ||
| Aesquire |
Exists, yes. But auto loaders seem to have dominated the market since S&W came out with the model 39. Then Glock took over the police market. So revolver tech stagnated for decades. The new polymer framed guns ( Ruger, S&W ) and the return of the Colt revolvers might be a decent renaissance... | ||
| Rick_a |
Revolvers will always be a niche in modern times. The development is stagnant as they've been rather perfected over the years. Any innovations in the past several decades have been to make them lighter, safer, and more robust. | ||
| Aesquire |
The biggest advance has been precision CNC machining that eliminates the need for expensive hand fitting. The finest example, alas, now gone, was the Colt SAA clones by U.S. Firearms. They used "ultra high speed" machining that spun the tools a jillion rpm to produce a high polish finish with no actual hand polishing on buffer wheels, etc. That and decent QC gave them exact replica SAA parts that in many cases were perfect fit for the old guns too. Zero hand fitting and very high quality. Keep in mind that "interchangeable parts" in the 18-19th centuries really meant a man took each part and filed, stoned, even milled it to make it fit the gauges. So even a brand new Colt from the early 1900's may need a replacement part to be customized to function. The difference between a modern "replace the parts" mechanic and a gunsmith is still huge. ( I say that as a precision tool maker so ymmv ) Unfortunately US Firearms was owned by a nut. He decided high precision old school cowboy guns wasn't the future. ( he may have been right, he was considered crazy to start that business at the beginning ) Bad news was he thought a tiny plastic .22 rimfire pistol was the hot new fad. Sold all the great machines and dumped all the money into molds etc. For a POS failure. Forgotten Weapons did a video... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X9bULArrKs4 | ||
| Rick_a |
Not quite. The frames, barrels, and cylinders can be made more efficiently and with less far less specialized machining operations and manual labor. The small parts are mostly MIM these days. | ||
| Rick_a |
I've owned some vintage S&W revolvers. I've sold one and gave the rest away. The purists get upset because I like the new ones better. They're more durable and the machine work on interior surfaces is much cleaner. The old ones have beautiful hand fitted grips and beautifully hand polished exterior finishes but that's where it ends for me. | ||
| Aesquire |
"More efficiently with less labor" Yep. The Old Way was one jig, one cut, next jig, next cut, repeat until pile of parts. THEN the hand fitting began. The New Way is one jig, every cut you can reach, next jig, ditto, until pile of parts, skip the hand fitting, human beings assemble with little or zero mucking about. Instead of a whole building full of mills and drills doing One Thing At A Time, in a choreographed sequence, the machining centers reduce that to at most, 3 machines for an entire frame. Bar stock in one side, whole cylinder out the other. It's still a choreographed dance. There's a reason that all those guns in the store have finishes that start in a vibratory tumbler with ceramic media & end in an oven to bake on fancy paint/powder/plasma/vapor final finish. High polish costs labor. The only reason to use humans instead of Robot assembly is the humans are cheaper when you figure they double as QC checks and can do revolvers, autos, and etc. without disassembly and reconfiguring. ( I hope! ) Sure, the Custom shops still do hand work, & you pay for pretty. The metal to wood interface and exterior polish both of us like in a vintage S&W is extra labor & cost that does nothing to function. The smooth surfaces INSIDE and exact fit that make stuff WORK today are parts that would have had human work done in the before time. And to take the inside of a frame of a .357 for example, the Old Way had a human file the surface smooth only where needed, ( the area where nothing ever touches can still have milling marks and change nothing. ) where a CNC part will have the speeds and feeds set to leave a finish appropriate to the need with no extra labor. Man hours and skills dominate the cost/profit equation. | ||
| Ourdee |
I used to like Colt 1911s. Look inside a new one and you will see why I am no longer impressed. | ||
| Aesquire |
I can see that. There are always choices and compromise involved. Even when a computer is guiding the tool, a human Chose the speeds and feeds to give the finish desired. And how much time the machine takes figures in, even if human hours are reduced. Much of the inside of a 1911 slide doesn't touch anything, so why not leave it as cast/forged? Or if carved out of bar stock, those surfaces don't need to be free of tool marks, so speed up the feed, there, and speed up the entire process by seconds. Is it then lower quality? Or just smarter priority? In part, you the consumer decide. But if 90%+ just wipe it down with a rag occasionally and you want it clean enough to eat off of, ( assuming edible lube  ) your desire might not guide the decision making process as much as you'd like. I'm not saying you are wrong. I looked at a brand new Cobra and while functional and probably a more robust action, it's not nearly the eye candy of Old stuff. Is not needing an old pro Colt tuner, if you can find the vanishing breed, worth a finish that looks more like a washing machine part than a work of art? | ||
| Ourdee |
I carry a firearm with the ultimate purpose dealing in life or death. Would my consideration of the value of that life not be given more respect if I concentrated on allowing it the finest workmanship in the achievement of it's end. Crushing a skull with a rental bowling ball is all too callous from inception to conception. I find it to be as barbaric as forming a butter knife into a shank against a concrete floor. I have shanks, but for everyday carry I choose fine cutlery. How much more refined is your bowling ball than thy neighbors high point? I do not presume to be better than others based on my wares. I do however find I must be true to myself in the quality of my work. As such, I take pride in fine workmanship and seek such as I may afford. | ||
| Aesquire |
Oh, I'd much rather carry a work of high skill and pride, like a Ed Brown 1911, than a Hi-point Yeet Cannon. Not to mock the maker of affordable protection for the many not rich & elite. If the choice was a sharp stick or the Yeet Cannon? Duh. My point is the manufacturer has to compromise between cost and demand. With tens of millions of American gun consumers, there's room for fine craftsmanship for the few, and many times that for good but not precious, and a few for ugly but works. Bell curve... How many Yeet Cannon vs. Executive Elite get sold each year? How many Glocks? I'd bet more Hi-points than Ed Brown sales. You & I are odd points in the curve. If we only have $200 to spend to protect our families, we'd probably buy a good old used gun than a new polymer cheap one. That's not "normal". ( normal is boring! Otoh, normal works for most & can be lower risk ) Ian at Forgotten Weapons took a Taurus Curve to a match, out of the box, no lube, no cleaning, no testing. A low opinion of their customers, eh? Didn't work worth a darn, naturally. He Knows Better. He knew that a thorough break in, clean, & lube would probably result in a fair test, but screwed up on purpose. What you learn from that varies. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I love and appreciate old revolvers, like my father's old 1952 Colt 4" OP. I carry polymer semiautos. Function is dead-on. I break them in properly. I maintain them properly (which reminds me, I need to clean the Hellcat after the mag I put through it last weekend...). I can put the entire mag on an 8" plate at 10 yards without really trying. Most importantly? IF something happens, and I have to use my firearm for self-defense...I'll be aggravated at surrendering one of my polymers to the police for the duration of the investigation, but I won't be heartbroken like I would if I had to hand over dad's .38. That said, though - neither my XD-s nor my Hellcat are "cheap" polymer pieces. But a polymer semi is the right tool for the job, in today's world. At least, in my opinion. I'd LOVE me a 1911...but concealment is tough due to size and weight, and they're not cheap. Worth it due to the manufacturing, absolutely...but still expensive if they have to be surrendered after an event. | ||
| Ourdee |
If you are worrying about the price of a piece that just took a life, you need to take a look at what the bail, lawyers, loss of income, and possible counseling is going to cost you. There are places to get insurance for the aftermath. It will not cover it all. The price of a good Dan Wesson is peanuts in comparison. | ||
| Ratbuell |
That wasn't my point. My point was, my father's revolver is absolutely priceLESS. Sure, the craftsmanship is outstanding and very much appreciated...but part of that appreciation, for me, is not putting it into harm's way. So to speak. Unrelated - here is a nice article: https://www.foxnews.com/us/gun-laws-lowest-level And, it touches on something interesting. We have, according to their numbers (which I presume are industry, and NICS, estimates), just shy of 19 MILLION new guns in circulation in the general public since the first of this year. But...no mass shootings? By all the arguments, with THAT many more guns "out there", we should have bodies piling in the streets! Hmmmmm....could it be? Might it be true? Could it be a fact, that "more guns" do NOT equal "more gun violence"? Could it POSSIBLY be that, truly, an armed society is a polite society? Whether it wants to be, or not? | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/11/16/repo rt-atf-working-joe-biden-go-after-ar-15-pistol-bra ces/ It probably says a lot about me that I want one, now. | ||
| Rick_a |
It seems school shootings happen with some regularity when the media and politicians start beating that gun control drum 24/7. | ||
| Court |
Any thoughts i the S&W Performance Series? Kid down the block seems fond of them. | ||
| Rick_a |
My old vs new revolvers.  20160714_191348 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr The Baby Chief went to my then wife, the 10-8 went to my son, the 67-5 was sold off, and that and the model 357 got replaced with a 66-8. | ||
| Ourdee |
S&W: I like their pistols like the 686. Performance Center is a great way to get that extra something to make it your's. That said, I have been keeping my eyes open for a Dan Wesson revolver. My carry 1911 is a bobbed tail SW1911SC. I would not be against having one all dolled up with the scroll/engraving work they do. | ||
| Aesquire |
I'm a big old Bodyguard fan. Not the new polymer one. Steel for .357, alloy for .38, the wrists aren't as solid as they were 40 years ago. There's a good argument for the DAO versions, but I do like to be able to •••• the hammer and make a deliberate shot with a light trigger pull, if needed and there's time. I'm not skilled enough to make the 6" gong ring at 100 yards except by accident, ( with any "normal" iron sighted hand gun, to be honest ) but at closer ranges, say, 25 yards, I really like to try to get the bullet past the "Hostage" target & into the "Badguy" one. ( IPSC meet stuff... and hopefully never in real life ) Still, I do like to prove that barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. ( sight radius, however... ) | ||
| Ourdee |
Yes, sight radius matters. | ||
| Ducbsa |
How soon will Groper Joe announce a National Health Emergency of Gun Deaths and announce a buyback program? Day after inauguration? Various Dem elites were pushing for that in the past year. Maybe having all those judges nominated by Trump will save the day? (Message edited by ducbsa on November 18, 2020) | ||
| Ratbuell |
He (they) doesn't have the House and Senate. Checks And Balances. I think we're going to see a whole lotta nuthin' for 4 years. 1: Sleepy Joe has 47 years in government, with ZERO accomplishments. 2: "bipartisan" is a thing of the past; nobody will agree on anything. Oh, and 3: he ain't in yet. Despite those bullshit "Office of the President-Elect" banners that mean absolutely NOTHING. | ||
| Tootal |
 Interesting how during the Georgia recount they're finding all these ballots from Republican counties that weren't counted last time! Oh, but be assured, there's not enough of them to sway the vote. Riiiiight! | ||
| Ducbsa |
He or his puppet master(s) will have the Executive Order pen and phone handy. I just hope the GOP/NRA/etc. has lawsuits ready to go to zip in front of a judge, to gum it up like the Progs did. It truly is hard to understand why "shall not be infringed" isn't crystal clear. |
