| Author | Message | ||
     Ratbuell |
HCQ by itself. Read the transcript - zinc is also required, along with one other whose name I don't recall offhand. | ||
| H0gwash |
Even before Trump, any doctor had permission to prescribe anything off label if they thought it will work for you, so yes, you can already take HCQ with zinc or whatever else you can get them to prescribe, as Trump has done. That doesn't change that HCQ and zinc is thought to be ineffective against covid by the FDA, which actually recommends against its use for covid. | ||
| Aesquire |
Crusty!  I can tell from your profile pic you're not from Tanith. | ||
| Aesquire |
...any doctor had permission to prescribe anything off label if they thought it will work for you,... That's the problem. Governors ( guess their Party ) decreed that doctors would be punished, licenses taken, if they prescribed THE ONE DRUG MENTIONED IN PUBLIC BY THE ENEMY aka The Bad Orange Man for their patients as some doctors have recommended. Those same Governors didn't decree a ban on the drug suggested by the famous Doctor Fauci. https://www.ehstoday.com/covid19/article/21130756/ fda-authorizes-gileads-antiviral-treatment-for-cov id19 So it's very selective and a drug that has been in long term use by hundreds of thousands+ is "bad" but a drug not approved for any use, experimental, is "good"? I have to ask why? I don't know that Remdesivir is especially effective, safe, or anything... It's new, and while I'm aware that the company, which has financial & professional connections with Dr. Fauci, has great incentive to recover some of the vast fortune they spent on a drug they cannot sell, Except by emergency decree in this real epidemic, That it could be a great drug. And to repeat, Hydroxychloroquine alone is not, I read repeatedly, a good therapy by itself, but part of a cocktail of HCQ, Zinc, and an Antibiotic to battle/prevent bacterial pneumonia. I don't know that any of the above mentioned drugs is great, poor, or what. I do know that just ONE of them is the subject of a Politically motivated disinformation campaign and censorship by people I have really good reason to believe are lying sacks of crap. Now, you may think Trump is a big lying sack himself, and I see no reason to argue. So what? When you have 2 POS politicians giving you conflicting information, look for independent confirmation. And not from other politicians. I don't have an informed opinion on Dr. Fauci. Some Pundits call him a Swamp Creature, ( anyone who's been in D.C. for over a decade might qualify, eh? ) And others seem to worship him. The Media just sensationalizes everything and has zero credibility. That doesn't change that HCQ and zinc is thought to be ineffective against covid by the FDA, which actually recommends against its use for covid. https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availabi lity/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-o r-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or The FDA certainly does not recommend taking any prescription drug without a doctor's prescription. That's just common sense as well as rational CYA. They don't ban HCQ in off label use. They quite logically, and properly, caution against HCQ use outside a setting where you can get checked for possible side effects. So I think "recommends against" is inaccurate. But I could be wrong, please correct me if you have documentation. I'd rather be right than win an argument. And Unlike, say, Governor Cuomo, I am capable of admitting I was wrong, and changing my mind. As an anecdotal example, I was given an FDA approved, for my Condition!, drug that nearly killed me. Found out after a week in the hospital that there's a family history of "sensitivity" ( it works too good ) to the drug. Warfarin. It's a darn good rat poison. Feel free to make the obvious jokes. Humans are complex, and there are always side effects. We are getting better at identifying the DNA that can indicate that Drug X is a bad choice for Patient Y, but it's really early days for that technology and it's going to be years before it's going to be SOP to have your gene chart as part of your medical records and everyone's Doctor being able to automatically, quickly, and routinely, enter a drug he wants to give you and have the software red flag the potential troubles. But it's coming. And my Father was a salesman for drugs & medical equipment. The Drug companies send out "Detail Men" to inform Docs about new & improved drugs & gear. They give out free samples, and, naturally, want to sell product. Today it's Billion$ to get a new drug to market. And usually years. Overall, the free market system produces far better results than any other, but it's not perfect. Nothing is. Neither is the FDA. As I often read, Aspirin would never get approval today by the FDA. It causes stomach bleeding. ( usually not much, and not harmful, but if you have Hemophilia or on a blood thinner... ) | ||
| Aesquire |
Hogwash, BTW, glad to hear your partner recovered from his low point. Depression is insidious. And it can be from real causes, not just a personal chemical imbalance. As to "saving the 80 year olds"... I have a lot of motivation to do so, ( Mom is 84 But don't tell her I said so! ) and am willing to undergo quite a bit of inconvenience to do so. I'm open to suggestions. Alas, I both don't have a time machine, or the psychopathic nature to go back to earlier this year and strangle the Governors of New York and other states that sent Covid-19 cases to nursing homes that directly caused the deaths of well over ten thousand elderly and not a few care givers. It would be extraordinarily hard to get Murder convictions against them too. But that doesn't mean I'm going to forget or support them. I suggest you take note of them as well. And, even, perhaps, let it color your attitude on their pronouncements, and Party affiliation. So we know at least ONE thing that Doesn't work. ( concentrating infected people in Nursing homes ) It seems obvious we need to carefully open business back up and still take precautions that will keep the death rate down until we have widespread vaccine use and this epidemic burns out. I'm not optimistic about when we can "safely" have sporting event crowds. I admit my last visit to Walmart ( mask idiots! ) makes me pessimistic that Darwin isn't going to thwart my hopes, half the people are below average, after all. | ||
| Crusty |
That's for sure; however, we sure could use John Christian Falkenberg right about now. Or probably Alois Hammer might be a better alternative. | ||
| Aesquire |
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| Pwnzor |
Ask yourself - "why?". It's a globalist conspiracy. That's why. | ||
| Blake |
Hogs, Interesting story. Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure I follow the relevance to my intended point. Maybe I failed to explain it well. You've seemed to put infinite value on prolonging human life. Surely not. Please clarify. Consider the following list: 1) Lowering the speed limit and putting speed governors on all vehicles would save lives, why don't we do it? 2) Banning sugar-laden drinks and snacks would save lives. Why don't we do it? 3) Mandating a minimum level of physical fitness would save lives. Why don't we do it? 4) Banning tobacco products would save lives. Why don't we do it? 5) Outlawing fornication (sex out of wedlock) would save lives. Why don't we do it? (35 MILLION dead from AIDS globally, and counting) 6) Banning motorcycles would save lives, why don't we do it? 7) Banning alcoholic beverages would save lives. Why don't we do it? 8) Some say that banning and destroying all civilian owned guns and ammunition would save lives. Why don't we do it? 9) Banning Islam and Muslims in general from immigrating or visiting the country would save lives. Why don't we do it? 10) We could probably save hundreds of thousands of lives per year just in America along with lots of tax money through government mandated policies. Why don't we? So we surely agree that government policy is not and ought not be focused upon prolonging lives to the exclusion of all other factors, yes? As for the virus: Is there not a point at which a "cure" becomes worse than the disease? Deciding where that point of demarcation lies is the terrible and difficult task, but one that must be performed and constantly re-evaluated by each governor, the President, and our legislators. Pretending other factors matter not, that saving lives from the virus is paramount, nothing else entering the equation, can lead to horrors the likes of which we must surely avoid. Plunging the country into recession let alone depression would be a deadly thing for a LOT people. (Message edited by Blake on August 02, 2020) | ||
| Blake |
>>> Dr Stella lost me at the demon seeds and aliens. She speaks figuratively and metaphorically relative to her personal religious and political views, so you conveniently discount her professional medical opinion? You're familiar with the ad hominem fallacy, yes? Cause that's what the doctor's detractors are so miserably employing, in addition to misframing her comments out of context.. >>> Most doctors who treat patients describe covid as uncontrolled and that HCQ is ineffective I'm not sure what that "uncontrolled" really means in tangible terms, but the doctors in Taiwan, S. Korea, Germany, and Japan likely disagree. And then there's the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons: newel{https://aapsonline.org/hcqsuit/,https://aapsonline.org/hcqsuit/} More telling are the continued surveys of the medical doctors. https://www.sermo.com/press-releases/largest-stati stically-significant-study-by-6200-multi-country-p hysicians-on-covid-19-uncovers-treatment-patterns- and-puts-pandemic-in-context/ Most recent tally of weekly survey results: https://app.sermo.com/covid19-barometer?utm_campai gn=wwwsermo_covid19 Click on "Treatments" and scroll down if needed. Toggle between U.S. and Global as desired. I don't know why anyone discounts this man's opinion, but maybe there are still people who believe CNN over the Yale professor of epidemiology.: https://www.westernjournal.com/yale-epidemiology-p rofessor-dismantles-cnn-anchors-ludicrous-hydroxyc hloroquine-attack/ (Message edited by blake on August 02, 2020) | ||
| Hootowl |
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| H0gwash |
I would put a temporary ban on all those things if they prevented being hospital beds in ERs from filling too early. I guess I would prefer to die in an orderly emergency room, rather than a overwhelmed and chaotic one. Motorcycle riding and cigarette smoking don't have that effect on ERs. They die at a fairly fixed and uniform rate, they don't start piling up exponentially. "...and constantly re-evaluated by each governor, the President, and our legislators." Trump now has said it is Patriotic to wear a face mask when you can't socially distance, so I think most people consider covid to be currently out of control. "...recession let alone depression would be a deadly thing for a LOT people." I think involuntary deaths due to covid still outnumber voluntary deaths due to suicide due to covid. IMHO if the numbers were reversed, you would have a stronger case. | ||
| Aesquire |
Nope, any death is a tragedy. You can't say that because there were only 100 suicides and 1000 dead from covid that it's best people suicide. Why is that wrong? Because it's Not a given that you have to be in depression inducing isolation to beat covid. That is a POLICY of a politician. Don't misunderstand, I support a LOT of standoffishness is society. I support mask use. I don't support forcing elderly to die cut off from their families. I'm walking into a Hospice to visit a friend on a regular basis, and there's just reasonable caution. Hand washing, in & out, keep a little distance if nor masked, etc. There is no need for total isolation in most cases. It is not a black & white thing that a decree by the Supreme Poobah makes it. Further, A couple of people sitting at an outdoor table & a bit of spacing? Fine. I even support the logical re-evaluation of the wisdom of having large crowd events, without PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY being taken by informed Citizens. If people aren't going to be reasonable then you don't get to go to a Concert. Every company and organization is looking at, not just the disease problem, but the Social Cancel problem, and the "I'll sue the band, the promoter, the Stadium, the City, and... if I go share a joint at the concert and get Covid-19". I use concert as an example, but that re-evaluation is going on across the board. I'm going to miss my martial arts Tournament/vacation, and I'm waiting to see a freaking movie in a theater again. I'm sure there's some silly thing you want to get back to, too. | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake, I'd do a point by point opinion/history lesson/rant on your list of ten... But you know them, It'd bore people, it's off topic, and I drove to Syracuse & back in impatient tailgating aggressive traffic, so I'm not in the mood.  And it works out to "the cure is worse than the disease" which at least pretends to be on topic. Play nice  How do you separate the functional precautions from the useless ones? It can be hard to measure. | ||
| Tpehak |
Coronavirus causes brain and heart damage. It basically eats your soul. You will never be the same after the infection. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/brain-fog- heart-damage-covid-19-s-lingering-problems-alarm-s cientists (Message edited by TPEHAK on August 03, 2020) | ||
| Blake |
Hogs, So now it's not that life is so sacred, but that ERs are not too crowded or chaotic? I guess that's progress. There's something to consideration of a controlling factor of life-years for evaluating policy ramifications. Assuming a natural death at age 80, suicide at 40 exacts a toll of 40 life years from the victim, where virus killing a 79 year old only takes one life year. The two are not the same, are they? We are all going to pass from this life. Why doesn't the govt mandate no holds barred in spending to prolong people's lives, expand ER's? Well they kinda did with Obamacare, but it didn't work out. I digress. Like Patrick noted, it's not a zero sum issue. The virus will have it's way no matter what, until a vaccine is available. We have flu vaccines. Why do people choose to risk dying of flu and not get vaccinated? Why don't we force everyone to get flu vaccinations? The fewer people hospitalized with flu, the more capacity for the virus, yes? | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, Yeah, the questions are rhetorical. I think Gerard sees where I'm coming from. Your point about the non-zero sum aspect is very helpful. I think it is just too unpalatable, understandably so, for some to put a calculus to issues of mortality, preferring instead to focus only upon the one obvious medical factor to the detriment of all others. My take is that if this is a war against the virus, then everyone is a soldier, and there will be casualties, but to win the war, we need herd immunity and we need a strong economy. So now the sensationalists in media are breathlessly talking about asymptomatic disease causing heart and lung damage and immunity not lasting but for a few weeks. It seems to me just another propaganda push to stoke fear. I so despise it. All serious viral infections can cause damage, why do people think they get such aches and pains with the flu? The virus is essentially liquidating your cells. That said, if you don't notice any symptoms, it's difficult to understand how some diagnostically detected damage means much if anything. The lie behind the "immunity might not last but for a few weeks" hinges on the presence of antibodies. The "news" media don't report that the human immune system essentially has an effective memory, such that when it re-encounters a familiar threat, it launches the effective antibody response without having to process it from scratch. It doesn't need a constant presence of antibodies, just the memory of them. | ||
| Blake |
Tpehak: I get you. Good stuff. I'll never be the same after reading your posts. | ||
| Blake |
"lingering problems alarm scientists..." You left the rest of that off. In full it should read "lingering problems alarm scientists, seeking to alarm society, so they can get lots of money to do research on this new alarming issue." Don't be alarmed though. It just your hard earned money they're after. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Alarmism is getting out of hand. I was riding the C&O Canal towpath yesterday on my bicycle. Saw about a dozen people in 27 miles of riding. Most...were fine. Normal wave, smile, "hey". If you've never seen or been to the C&O, it runs along the Potomac River and was an old (1800s) shipping route. Where I am, it's...rural. To say the least. Down towards DC it's a big tourist attraction with nice decomposed granite on the trail, manicured foliage, and actual water in the canal basin. Where I ride (Sharpsburg, MD to Williamsport, MD), it's a path through the woods next to a ditch that may have some standing water in it, but mostly is just full of mature trees and the occasional preserved canal lock. And on the other side of the trail...is the Potomac. In 27 miles, I passed two parking areas with boat launches so folks could enjoy the water. One woman was riding WEARING A MASK. Another woman, when she saw me from about 100 yards away, grabbed her shirt collar and stuffed it over her nose until I passed her. I presume she dropped it after, but I didn't turn to see. Seriously. Outdoors. Sunlight. Fresh air. Middle of the freakin' WOODS. And other than that split-second when you pass someone on the trail...about as socially-distanced as you can possibly BE. Un. Real. | ||
| Tpehak |
People now wear a mask even when they drive inside a car alone. | ||
| H0gwash |
While I don't take suicide lightly, as your first email suggested, I don't think all life is sacred, just mine. The loss of 'future years lived' of a suicidal 40 year old and a sick 79 year old may strike you as not the same. They probably strike the suicidal 40 year old as the same, death is the end. They strike me as similar enough. People may wish that the sick old people just die already, but they may still want to see another Christmas or New Year. Some won't take vaccines 'because the sign of the beast,' that's okay, more for me. You're going to do what you're going to do and you'll eventually pass from this life as we all will. Please avoid expediting the taking of other lives while expediting the taking of your own. Governments have tried to expand ER capacity for covid with temporary ERs and hosptial ships and stuff with varying success. It is impractical to enforce vaccinating everybody but we do sometimes generally enforce people to get flu vaccinations in smaller groups, like children attending public schools. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Another woman, when she saw me from about 100 yards away, grabbed her shirt collar and stuffed it over her nose until I passed her. Why we have always had an abundance of genuinely stupid people this is the first time, in my lifetime, they have had such a stellar platform to self-identity. I'm making notes. | ||
| Ourdee |
Brain fog (mentioned in Tpe's link), LOL. I have witnessed a lot of it lately. I see people riding on the back of bikes with masks on, LOL. | ||
| Aesquire |
Chatted with a lady in the parking lot of a doctor's office today, who had her mask on, but not pulled up over the nose. I mentioned she didn't need to wear one alone in her car, and she told me she just didn't want to forget it. We were both waiting for the text message to come on in for our appointments. So not all apparent dumb is actually dumb. OTOH, I rode to a buddies the other day, and needed to get gas. And... while I was at it, decided to get a beverage, ( 90F out ) and realized I'd forgotten my mask collection in my car. Oops. So I just left my Helmet on and lowered the modular visor. No one cared or commented. It's "face covering" on the signs. Good enough. From a practical standpoint, paper, cloth, titanium, fiberglass... same difference. The purpose is to limit spray. Some pundits point to Sweden as "how it should be done" but miss, or don't care, that circumstances are very different in Sweden than, say, Italy. Population density, yes, but apparently more important, the cultural personal space habits, and the willingness to take basic precautions as suggested by authority figures. ( In Sweden it's not "Obey Me", like New York, it's "If you're smart" ) https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the- mind/human-brain/which-countries-have-smallest-per sonal-space.htm To be extreme about it, a "I don't need to listen to no commie governor" guy in Wyoming who hasn't left his bunker in six years except to pick up the supplies he orders on a landline phone, is already practicing antisocial distancing, and is relatively safe. While the Karen yelling at people at Walmart to keep their distance, and obey the mask signs, might get sick because she ordered the "This smells like my Orgasm" candle for $75 from Goop, ( yes, that's real ) that may have been packaged by a coughing peasant in a sweatshop in Cambodia. And then "helps" infect the entire anti-vax collective she Zoom conferences with when she brags about her purchase and they too pull the Very Woke item out of the biodegradable organic packing fill that has been kept warm, slightly moist, and away from UV by the designer package. | ||
| Blake |
Tpehak, I've done it multiple times, driven alone with mask. I just forget to remove the darn thing. I still prefer a kerchief over the ear hangers. I wonder if I made Professor Canfield's list. I wonder if wearing mask in the car while one's zipper is down constitutes an offsetting penalties scenario. There is great philosophy happening somewhere. Not sure it's here. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Wasn't Brain Fog the disease in Joe vs. The Volcano, with Tom Hanks? ...or was that a Brain Cloud? Maybe we can get all the Karens to jump in a volcano! | ||
| Blake |
H0gwash, It is difficult for many to separate the emotional from the analytical. Thing is that too much of one with not enough of the other can and has lead to some really horrible evil outcomes. It's interesting to note that your argument is indeed a powerful one, which is very similar to that employed effectively by pro-life advocates who implore women to choose a passing inconvenience, even suffering in order to protect the life of their baby. The difference being that with abortion a life is being intentionally ended. On an axis going from innocent happenstance to full pre-meditated murder, the virus deaths fall much less towards the side of murder, the CCP perpetrators excluded of course. They indeed are murderers, whether by intentional inaction or worse. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I think the main issue with this COVID situation is, an attempt at a one-size-fits-all approach (for one). One size does NOT fit all, as we are seeing. Rural Kansas does not require the same precautions as NYC. The second issue for most, is the fact of a MANDATE versus some common-sense, treat-us-like-adults "hey, we've been finding that these precautions, and these medications, have some positive effects. Use them as you choose. Also, we've found this segment of people (elderly/pre-existing condition) folks are especially susceptible, so we recommend they in particular take precautions." All of that can be done, without crashing a national economy and running millions of business owners into the ground. Logical recommendations (with supporting arguments). Not iron-fist decrees. People have free will - ESPECIALLY here in the USA. Which means, they can make good choices...or poor ones. Those who choose poorly? Darwin. It's their choice. Most people are too polite to say that we've needed a good dose of chlorine in the gene pool, for a few decades now... | ||
| Tpehak |
3/4 of coronavirus infected patients experience hospital delirium, nightmares and hallucinations https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/health/coronavi rus-delirium-hallucinations.html |
