| Author | Message | ||
     Hootowl |
“ So you'd be guilty? But you should be forgiven, cause you've tried to reform?” I should be forgiven because I have confessed my sins against God, am penitent, and have accepted Jesus as my Lord And Savior. In fact, I am forgiven. God said so. I am a good person. I do not intentionally do harm to others, I volunteer at an animal therapy center for autistic children, I donate to charity, I help others when I can, I strive to obey the law, and I treat others as I wish to be treated. Am I perfect? No. I can think of only one man who was. Am I good? Yes. And so are you. | ||
| Blake |
Gerard (H0gwash): >>> I am using my peers and my superego as my standard. While this makes me no better than my puppy who I am sure thinks he is a good puppy as much as I think I am a good person, it allows me to slowly change for the better as new ethical situations emerge. Hahahah! I don't think puppies contemplate such issues. As to the serious part, aren't you essentially just saying that you have the ultimate authority for judging yourself? What court of law allows such a thing? If at some point you find yourself before the Supreme Being and are judged according to the Ten Commandments, will you be guilty or innocent? | ||
| Blake |
Brad (Squids): >>> Of course I'm guilty. We're all guilty. Sin's no stranger to me. Hoping the sum total of my life allows forgiveness. If God is perfectly just, and if we're all guilty of crime, then don't we all deserve the penalty. What kind of judge forgives a guilty criminal? Before any judge who upholds justice, the guilty must pay the penalty for their crime. If Mother Teresa herself cheated/lied on her taxes, she'd have to pay the penalty, yes? | ||
| Blake |
Sami: "No one is good except God alone." Christ Jesus You believe it? | ||
| Blake |
Jeff (Hootowl): >>> I should be forgiven because I have confessed my sins against God, am penitent, and have accepted Jesus as my Lord And Savior. In fact, I am forgiven. God said so. Jeff, are you familiar with why that is, the legal implications that make it consistent and coherent with perfect justice? | ||
| Sami |
Blake, I do. God is Good and we all fall short. People often use ''good'' colloquially, for example, ''So and so is a good president''. We don't mean that so and so is a sinless president, ''Good president'' is just an informal way of saying something about a president who has done things that are considered good for the country. In the same way, we can say about someone ''so and so is a good father and husband'', nevertheless he is still a sinful man like any other who falls short of God. | ||
| H0gwash |
aren't you essentially just saying that you have the ultimate authority for judging yourself? No, it is a balancing act between by peers and my superego. My superego is my "immediate supervisor" who answers to local law enforcement. I suppose if my superego took over, it would feel it had ultimate authority for judging me, but I recognize that if I were to tangle with the judicial system, a jury of my peers would have lots more clout over my superego. A jury of my peers would also judge me socially after I die. I don't believe in an literal afterlife. I believe in a figurative afterlife where your survivors talk about you after you're dead and I want to be remembered on good terms. Because of that I don't follow what I believe to be "brand specific" items particular to Christianity in the 10 commandments, but follow the non branded generic items. (Message edited by h0gwash on January 30, 2020) | ||
| Blake |
Gerard, If I can show your standard incoherent, will you reject it? Juries have been known to be dead wrong, convicting innocent defendants. In that case, will you accede to their judgment? If not, then aren't you indeed are holding your own authority/judgement as supreme over all others? Please humor me. I understand that you deny that you have an eternal soul, but if you're wrong, and surely you cannot hold that it is impossible that you are wrong, then if at some point you find yourself before the Supreme Being, and are judged according to the Ten Commandments, will you be guilty or innocent? If the innocent gain Heaven, and the guilty fall to Hell, which would be your destiny? (Message edited by Blake on January 30, 2020) | ||
| Aesquire |
I have doubts. (On the are you good? Question ) | ||
| Blake |
It's really the central issue in Christ that so infuriates and divides. I so admire Denise Prager's response. Mr. Prager is a committed Orthodox Jew. He absolutely loves Christians, and the feeling is mutual. Mr. Prager says that when Messiah comes, his first question will be, "have you been here before?". A man can heal the sick, feed the hungry, inspire and comfort the poor, even raise the dead. People will love him. Leaders of society will marvel and praise him. Even mortal enemies of his nation will seek him out. But when he explains the source of his amazing ministry and shares that "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life..." . . . There is instant division including even among families and friends. "CRUCIFY HIM!" They demanded. Sin is bondage, and the wages of it is death. Christ offers life. He's paid the penalty for our crimes. His last words on the cross as life left his body were "It is finished." The debt was paid. | ||
| H0gwash |
I will probably reject the portions you feel are most important, but feel free to continue, I can reject it nicely. True, juries indeed have been found to be wrong, just as clergy have been found to be wrong. I edited out of my previous answer that instead of "God" I believe in a "community conscience" which accounts for the occasional ethical hiccup without letting my superego take control over everything. I'll answer the "if I'm wrong" bit after classes today. I was laid off from the coffee selling job and am taking a series of accounting classes. | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake, as Squids began with Pascal's Wager, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager you might want to invoke it as a concept in your discussion. HOgwash's statement is at the heart of the idea of a social contract. Good discussion. Carry on. | ||
| Blake |
Patrick: A social contract? According to what standard? Yikes! But mostly, what will the Supreme Judge of the world say when as an excuse for violating His law, you invoke social contract? Pascal's wager is a solid point for provoking thought, but it doesn't get to sincere repentance and salvation through Christ. For example, if you read about Job in the Bible's book of the same name, you'll find that Job had essentially been living and regarding God akin to the Pascal's wager mindset. Job was treating God like a vending machine of good fortune and prosperity, thinking that so long as he kept the law and followed the rules that all was good and right. It's a popular corruption of the Gospel even today; see Joel Ostein etc. I digress. Unlike Ostein, Job never tangibly broke God's law in any way; he was by all accounts a perfectly righteous man in keeping the law and was magnanimous and kind to his neighbors. Yet in the end, Job threw himself into the dirt and repented of his sin. But he was righteous! so why would he do such a thing? If we cannot love our Creator, we are lost. Can you truly love someone without knowing them? Can you truly know someone without relating to them personally? What an astounding thing, to know that the Creator of the universe desires a personal relationship with each of us. Who would imagine such a thing? (Message edited by blake on January 30, 2020) | ||
| Blake |
Sami: That's a great explanation. When it comes to generalizations about people, I think I may try to start using adjectives like "decent" or "admirable", which seem a bit lower on the scale compared to "good". But that's just something that crossed my mind recently. It might be interesting to study all the uses of the word "good" in the Bible, especially those pertaining to people. "God is good" is such a simple sentence, yet within it stands the profoundly accurate foundation of theology. | ||
| H0gwash |
I'm going to try to squeeze this in between classes- I guess I simply don't believe in branded justice. I think God, if he exists, doesn't practice a specific kind of religion with specific bullet points or fulfillment requirements. I think an all knowing God would know when a criminal should actually be saved and when a churchgoer actually should be damned. I guess I want to avoid living my life as building a resume for getting into heaven because I'm afraid of missing the forest for all the trees in the way. If I'm wrong that's okay because right now it's the only way I can see to do this with any sort of sincerity which would seem to be paramount. If I were to suddenly start going to church and say everything I am supposed to say, I'm pretty sure I would look like the churchgoer who really should be cut from the flock. | ||
| Hootowl |
God knows your heart. He will judge you accordingly. | ||
| Ourdee |
If I were to suddenly start going to church and say everything I am supposed to say, I'm pretty sure I would look like the churchgoer who really should be cut from the flock. Nothing wrong with going to church when looking for direction, enlightenment, or simply an education. God doesn't want a person to be a man pleaser. So, don't fake it. I don't know any preachers worth their salt that would want you to fake it. | ||
| Hootowl |
I agree. Go to church. Hang around. See how the spirit moves you. | ||
| Ourdee |
I get in trouble when visiting churches. I get excited and clap or stand up and shout hallelujah. I got in trouble last week at a wedding for clapping. | ||
| Sami |
Blake, I agree that it's foundational. Christianity explicitly states that God is Good. The different uses of good are there in the Bible, would be interesting to see how it's used. ''Good'' and ''bad'' are also used without pertaining to people, for instance in Jeremiah 24:2, ''One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.'' Obviously, the good fig tree was not like God, rather it was ''good'' in the sense of being fruitful. The point stands that no one is good but God, still we can use ''good'' in ways to describe people and animals and trees and objects. | ||
| 86129squids |
"I get in trouble when visiting churches. I get excited and clap or stand up and shout hallelujah. I got in trouble last week at a wedding for clapping."  That doesn't surprise me a bit, RD. | ||
| Aesquire |
If the 10 commandments are the criteria, I'm a sinner. Don't brag I violate all 10, though.  I partly agree with George Carlin, not all 10 are interpersonal relation rules, like "don't murder" ( which I agree with ) but are keep to establishment norms rules, like "honor thy Mother & Father" ( which, unlike Carlin, I generally agree with ) and the ban on graven idols & brand exclusivity, "none other God but me" ( which I have gleefully broken ) For sake of pouring gasoline on this fire. Here's a bunch I vehemently disagree with.  and a few that aren't bad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternatives_to_th e_Ten_Commandments And George in his older, more nasty days. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CE8ooMBIyC8 If your good-bad criteria is more "subtle" than the 10... then I'm still a sinner, but a bit more hopeful on the Judgement I deserve in the afterlife. Which I'll get into later...so to speak. | ||
| Aesquire |
A social contract? According to what standard? Yikes! But mostly, what will the Supreme Judge of the world say when as an excuse for violating His law, you invoke social contract? "But St. Peter, according to Rules For Radicals, my lying, ruining of reputations, theft, and murders were completely justified to bring about The Revolution!" Good question, WHICH social contract? The Code of loyalty, faithfulness, integrity, charity & bravery I fall short on would terrify a snowflake SJW. Pascal's wager is a solid point for provoking thought, but it doesn't get to sincere repentance and salvation through Christ. True! But before you can accept Christ as your saviour, you have to accept the existence of God. ( or gods, if polytheism is your thing ) No God, no Heaven, then Salvation is imaginary. Gotta start somewhere. | ||
| Sami |
A social contract is worth no more than the paper it is written on. Paper is cheap, so is a social contract. | ||
| Pwnzor |
I'm just grinning to myself thinking of RD causing a ruckus in church. I go to church very rarely, if ever. These garish buildings with giant screens sicken me. I was invited to go to church by one of my drivers a couple years ago, so Gretchen and I went with him and his wife. The preacher was not even there! He was on a giant screen, but he was 100 miles away and simulcasting into multiple churches. Sure, between the portions of his sermon there were musical productions in front of us at the amphitheater where we were sitting, but it was all so very impersonal.... and people were emptying their pockets, multiple times. I couldn't help but think that it's going to buy some new screens or some more airtime on TV or whatever... To me... THIS is a church. My great grandparents are buried outside of this one, and my grandparents were married here. My parents renewed their vows here.  | ||
| Ourdee |
The church I attended when first saved only accepted an offering once a week. We chose the least attended service for this. Instead of passing the plate we would march around the building praising God. The second time around someone and I would get the plates from the pulpit and stand with them after putting our offering in while those marching and praising God would come by and give their tithes and offerings. For me personally it was tithe and a half shekel for upkeep of the ministry, building, and grounds. In this way everyone could give weather they had money or not, they could give praise. Visitors were often amazed in other services that we didn't take up collections. | ||
| Blake |
Hey Gerard. I don't think you answered that question. If you're wrong and find yourself in front of the supreme judge of the world being judged according to the Ten Commandments, will you be guilty or innocent? Patrick: Think of the "no other gods before me" as simply saying "do not make believe your own "truth" contrary to the actual truth." Good rule to follow that would save a lot of trouble if followed, yes? (Message edited by blake on February 02, 2020) | ||
| Blake |
Patrick: "Gotta start somewhere." Are you familiar with presuppositionalism? If you don't start with God, you can't know anything. Since if you don't know everything, or have revelation from someone who knows everything, then something you don't know can contradict that which you think you know. We do know some things for certain. Rattle that around for a while and see how it feels. It seems to lead to either of two separate world views, either theism, or solipsism. | ||
| Pwnzor |
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| Aesquire |
Multiple Pantheistic Solopsism! I'm not too sure you should believe in me. I could be a NPC. I don't think so, but... I wouldn't, eh? One of these days I'll buy season 2 of Westworld and see how they resolved their questions on life and sentience. Feel free to spoil it, if it was good. |
