| Author | Message | ||
     Crusty |
Hopefully everything went smoothly. It did. And now, I won't have to worry about my cold water heater (I don't need to heat hot water) for several years. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I've been using sharkbites for years with good results, but tend to only use them in accessible areas (just in case, down the road). In-wall areas I use PVC with cement (renovating a 1951 apartment doesn't lend well to my using a torch to braze copper inside a wall or a floor). I will braze copper for valves (measure, cut, angle-mark, position, then remote-braze away from the install site), and mount them securely to a wall so there is no flex-failure down the road. Quarter-turn flipper-handle ball valves are my choice, and the second story apartment I'm currently working on has a single feed into the apartment in the foyer, with a valve to shut off the whole apartment. Just above that valve is a low-point drain - hook up a hose and run it 4' out the door, and it will drain the entire apartment for service/repair. Above the drain is a copper tee, for the branch off to the water heater feed. The cold side of the tee goes to the apartment fixtures; the hot side of the tee goes to another quarter-turn valve, then the ping tank, then the heater inlet (same braided hoses that RD has). Another braided hose on the hot/out side, to copper, to a wall strap...and another quarter-turn valve so I don't have to drain all the pipes if the heater needs swapped in 10 years - close two valves, undo the hose fittings, swap the heater, reinstall, open the valves and let the heater fill. From there, a wall strap to a PVC conversion fitting, then out to the apartment. I MUCH prefer the quarter-turn ball valve fittings to a standard round-handle hose-style valve - they don't gum up, they require less interaction to go from open to closed, and they're simple to read. Handle in line with the piping? Valve open. Handle perpendicular/across the piping? Closed. Simple at-a-glance check. And a tip to "dry out" copper for soldering? Bread. Pack the end of the pipe with bread, where you're going to solder. It will soak up the water at the end, and block any other from running down the pipe, and allow you to braze...and the water in the pipe later will dissolve the bread and flush it through the system without harming any valves along the way. | ||
| Kmbuell |
Rat, all good advice, but use white bread, the real grainy stuff can clog up airaters. That’s one of those “don’t ask me how I know “ things. Just to mess with my brother I switched the handles 90 degrees on his ball valves. Don’t know that he ever noticed | ||
| Hootowl |
Rat, I hope you mean CPVC. | ||
| Airbozo |
I have a Bosch tankless. Runs on propane and nothing else and is mounted to the outside of my house. Great to have hot water when the power goes out (several times a year, sometimes for several days). Turn the water on, it spins a wheel which generates a spark to light the burners. Water gets so hot I have to warn people. It's been flawless for about 15 years, then every year after the first really cold night, I have to replace the $16 thermocouple. | ||
| Hootowl |
If you want to save some money on your propane bill, reduce the temperature. There’s no reason to make scalding hot water at the heater only to mix it with cold water at the faucet. There’s no standing tank of water you need to keep at pasteurization temperature to keep from growing things. Make it only as hot as you need it to be. Mine is set at 106. | ||
| Aesquire |
Pasteurization temps? My iron eating bacteria is happy in hot springs! Good advice to run at a temp that is an "as hot as is safe & comfortable" level after passing through, and warming up, the piping to the shower. It may take some experimentation. Airbozo! Is your heater from Lucas?  I assume you just keep the spare part handy like my Norton riding buddy does. | ||
| Hootowl |
Pasteurization was meant to kill pathogens. Iron eating bacteria are not pathogens.  | ||
| Aesquire |
Tell that to Tony Stark! | ||
| Hootowl |
The palladium that was poisoning him? It’s actually quite inert and non toxic. If you had to stuff metal in your body, palladium would be a good choice. If you have fillings, you likely have a bit in your teeth. So pardon me if I don’t trust a comic book author to tell me about the deleterious effects of iron eating bacteria. | ||
| Sifo |
If you want to save some money on your propane bill, reduce the temperature. There’s no reason to make scalding hot water at the heater only to mix it with cold water at the faucet. There’s no standing tank of water you need to keep at pasteurization temperature to keep from growing things. Make it only as hot as you need it to be. Mine is set at 106. Just focusing on the energy involved... If you need, lets say 5 gallons of 106 degree water for your shower, does it really matter if you heat 5 gallons to 106, or if you heat a lesser amount to a higher temp, then add enough cold water to make 5 gallons of 106. I would think it would all depend on the efficiency of the heater at different temperatures. Assuming equal efficiency, I think the energy would be the same, would it not? | ||
| Torquehd |
If only there was a bacteria that ate only silver.  | ||
| Hootowl |
Good question. I don't know the answer. It's heating water nearly instantaneously. Is the amount of energy it takes to do that linear with temperature? I doubt it, but maybe. | ||
| Sifo |
I don't know either, but thought I would muddy the hot water.  | ||
| Ourdee |
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| Hughlysses |
Actually, there is a good reason to maintain a minimum temperature in your hot water tank. Legionella bacteria (as in Legionnaires Disease) can grow at temperatures around 120 degrees F and lower. (Hotter temperatures kill it.) If you’ve got an elderly person or someone with a weakened immune system, they’re susceptible to getting Legionnaires Disese from the shower spray. That’s one reason the default temperature setting for water heaters is 140 degrees F. It takes the same total amount of energy to heat the water whether you do it slowly or fast. A tankless water heater uses a LOT of energy, but for a relatively short time. A conventional water heater uses energy at a lower rate but over a longer period of time. The energy savings with a tankless heater comes from not having to maintain 50 gallons of water hot all the time. You just make it as you need it. | ||
| Tootal |
If you take 140 degree water and add cold to get it to 106 then your hot shower will last much longer since you're using less of the hot. Ofcourse tankless is different. BTW, beer is pasturized at 142 in a can and 156 in a bottle since the glass insulates so well. The beer doesn't reach 156. Now go find a trivia contest and be a hero!!  | ||
| Hootowl |
I don’t think it’s linear. I can’t back that up. I can’t find a graph. Water heaters come preset at 120 to reduce the risk of scalding. Non idiots should turn theirs up to 140. | ||
| Court |
I use Navien ....full bluetooth Love it | ||
| Zac4mac |
From what little I remember of thermodynamics, the higher the delta-t, the faster the heat transfer. It is NOT linear. sorry, gotta use calculus. (Message edited by zac4mac on January 28, 2019) | ||
| Aesquire |
Hoot, sorry to trip the fandom mine. I was going for the dumber iron eating/Iron Man joke. Even though the suit is a titanium alloy. ( per MCU movie ) I agree on the Palladium. I suspect it sounded like Polonium, a substance some people in Britain use to commit suicide. Iirc, Adamantium is a thermosetting plastic/epoxy/metal. Obviously the writer that week figured out a retcon for why you couldn't melt Wolverine. And repulsor rays are a violation of Tom Swift Jr's repelatron patent! I personally run my water heater so that the furthest faucet, the kitchen sink, can exceed comfort, but not scalding temps, to best melt away food grease. The showers use balanced single handle controls.. But the cheapest donated versions ( vocational school built below lowest bidder ) so the difference in handle position between too cool & too hot is measured in fractions unpronounceable in English. | ||
| Sifo |
After sleeping on it, and having a shower this morning, only to find work canceled, again, I doubt the cost of running a tankless water heater at 106 vs. 130 is going to make any noticeable economic difference. I can see the convenience of simply turning it on and having it set at a desired temperature. I don't even want to contemplate the efficiency of the system in my house. It's a 50 gal. tank heated with hot water. | ||
| Crusty |
This argument reminds me of the guy who made it a point to buy gas in the morning during summer months because the temps were cooler and he would get more for his money. He couldn't grasp that since the gas is stored underground in large tanks, it didn't matter; he was getting the same amount whatever the outside temperature was. | ||
| Sifo |
Is there an argument? | ||
| Crusty |
My apologies. I meant this discussion not argument. | ||
| Hootowl |
No mine tripped, Pat. I am not a big comic guy. I only know iron man lore from the recent films. I figured you were referring to some deep knowledge surrounding a plot point that I am completely ig-nernt of. Delta-t. Exactly. I knew that, but couldn’t shake the thought from the cobwebs in my ever aging noodle. Thank you. | ||
| Hootowl |
Gas pump meters are temperature compensated. Not sure when that started. Might have made a difference decades ago, but not now. | ||
| Tootal |
I think my point was misunderstood since I didn't make it clear. I was basically removing tankless heaters from the conversation. I too set mine at the perfect shower temp and just turn on the hot water. What I was trying to say is if you have a tank type heater then if you put it at 140 you will be able to take a longer shower since your mixing in the cold. I meant this in case of a large family that might run out of hot water if they all decide to shower after each other. Both options have their plus and minuses, it's just what you prefer. I don't have anybody but me here so the tankless works in my situation. When I have company though, I have to explain how it works or they will never get a hot shower! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Is there an argument? | ||
| Sifo |
We have a hot water tank and keep it on the cool side. I may rethink that now that people are talking about things growing in the tank. It's heated from the boiler that heats my house though, and can handle back to back showers for at least 4 people without a problem. It seems able to heat the water as fast as it get used. The boiler only has a couple of gallon capacity, which really surprised me for radiant heat, but it relies on quickly heating a small boiler rather than having a big boiler that has a large thermal capacity. |
