| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Hogwash, "Why you would give native born criminals a pass? That's why I lock my doors. I don't want to get robbed or murdered by criminals whether they were born here or there." I thought we were discussing the merits of stopping criminals and deadly illegal drugs from entering the country, and of legal immigration over illegal. So yes, we should lock our doors and only allow those who we approve of and welcome into the country, yes? How many murders in the last ten years have been perpetrated by illegal immigrants? Come on man. | ||
| Blake |
https://youtu.be/G7X00VESo94 | ||
| Ebutch |
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| H0gwash |
Hello Blake. I'm focused crime prevention in California, but that is certainly closely related to keeping undocumented criminals out, so I'll play. I could only find 25,064 but that is between 2003-2009, so it's not a confident guess. | ||
| Sifo |
Blake's video above touches on, but doesn't go near far enough to point out a pretty obvious point. I can see most of the illegal imigrants falling into one of 4 categories. 1) Those who will be cared for financially, without need for a job or government aid. 2) Those who plan to work here illegally. 3) Those who plan to work here legally. 4) Those who plan to live on government aid. I think we should all be able to agree that those in the first category would be a very small minority. The second category has them living as a second tier resident with no future beyond illegal day labor employment. The last tow categories both require them to commit identity fraud. This is a serious crime, and not victimless. It's become a huge black market that has caused major havoc in the lives of many innocent people. BTW, those in the second category will eventually have to decide between identity fraud or tax evasion. Both serious crimes. These are the possibilities for the best intentioned illegals. We currently have the Mueller investigation who's best work has been to catch someone who we had never heard of before in the crime of tax evasion. We are expected to accept that this is a crime worthy of a two year investigation that has cost the country millions of dollars. Are we really supposed to turn a blind eye to the illegal aliens who do the same? Are we not all supposed to be held equally to the scales of justice? It seems to me that our country has seriously lost it's way. | ||
| H0gwash |
I agree that we are all supposed to be held equally to the scales of justice. "Judge not lest ye be judged" comes to mind. To your list of issues I propose adding California citizens who intend to work illegally, and who intend to live off of government aid (illegally). | ||
| Sifo |
To your list of issues I propose adding California citizens who intend to work illegally, and who intend to live off of government aid (illegally). Hey, I can play that game too. I'll add illegals who plan to do those same things illegally for the same reasons that make it illegal for the citizens you added. Of course, none of this adds to the discussion of what should be done about illegal immigration. The bottom line is that illegals are forced into committing crimes to live here "legally", unless they are independently wealthy. Given that I don't hear of independently wealthy people sneaking across our southern border much, it's a pretty fair assessment that a percentage that is extremely close to 100% of illegal immigrants are forced into other serious crimes, just to survive here. They do so with their eyes wide open. These are not the people that we should be encouraging to enter our country. | ||
| H0gwash |
none of this adds to the discussion of what should be done about illegal immigration. I think it helps put it in perspective. I show some 114,672 US murders between 2003-2009 compared of which 25,064 is by all immigrants, legal and illegal. (Data is from random websites deathpenalty.org and multpl.com. I am open to better quality sources) | ||
| Aesquire |
So 1 of 5 murders are committed by immigrants? If you assume 300 million population, and 50 million illegals, ( a high, but not crazy guess ) that's 1 in 6. Assume 20 million illegals ( a plainly wrong, but common assertion ) that's 1 in 15. Going by the almost certainly low guess that's 3 times more likely to commit murder. And that math deliberately excluded legal immigrants, to reduce the numbers as a percentage for illegals. I fudged to make the criminal trespassers seem less bad, at every step. It makes a solid argument. I remind you that crime stats for Black teens in wealthy suburbia, typically R towns, is far lower than in poor cities, typically D towns. And that is true no matter the skin color or genetics, thus race is not the dominant factor in crime, political leadership is. This is an overly broad assertion, but defensible. It's Culture that matters. I firmly believe. If you took a child of any race, from any location on Earth, and raised them in small town Nebraska, they'd have the same shot at a successful life. Few would become the next Warren Buffet, but that's not different than now. | ||
| Ducbsa |
An acknowledgement that keeping the illegals out would save American lives would be nice. How do you choose which duly enacted US laws will be enforced and which will be ignored? | ||
| H0gwash |
Keeping other countries killers out of the US would be great! As someone who does not own a gun, I do respect those whose job it is to enforce the tangle of existing and new border laws. I believe their enforcement, which is necessarily selective, is mostly influenced by available budget. | ||
| Sifo |
I think it helps put it in perspective. I guess I'm unclear how this perspective helps your argument. There's no question that crime is a part of all segments of society. There should also be no question that crime is not dispersed evenly across the various segments of society. These things hold true in other countries too. The question at hand is who do you want coming in to our country. In one group, we have those who go through the trouble of an arduous application process that can take years. These people can be vetted to make sure that they are not criminals, but rather have skills that are needed to make our country stronger. In the other group, we have those who have chosen to ignore our immigration laws, likely helped by human smugglers, and will almost certainly be breaking more laws to make money in this country. Honestly, I can't see what there is to even discuss in this choice. If, as your data suggests, that 1 in 5 murders are committed by an immigrant, that's a terrifying figure to start with. The thing is, I'm pretty certain that the distribution of murders is not even between the two groups of immigrants I described in the above paragraphs. Sadly, this discussion seems to be going much like climate discussions always go. You seem to have a predetermined view point, that is not supported by the facts that you yourself bring to the discussion. Yet the discussion will end with no opinions changed. You are doing a great job of reinforcing the opinions of your opposition though. | ||
| H0gwash |
Don't let me bring you down. I really don't want anyone to miss out on the holiday experience because of what I think. I am checking email in between prep cooking to music for a family get together tomorrow so the environment here is festive and smells delicious. I would offer you a drink if you were here, it's that kind of discussion, this is not meant to be combative at all. | ||
| Hootowl |
I’m having sous vide steak finished on a 700 degree big green egg, a glass of petite petite (two elephants on the label, you can’t miss it) and some rolls that I just pulled out of the oven. It’s not just today, all my posts are meant in the spirit of fellowship and friendship, even when I disagree with someone.  Merry Christmas, friends, and may the blessings of Christ be upon you and your families. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2018/12/24/wom ens-march-organizer-white-jew s-as-white-people-uphold-white-supremacy Merry Christmas. Unfortunately the Women's March was taken over by folk who, simply, hate Jews. And Jesus, but that's still in their closet. Deeply dishonest Marxist ideology and Muslim Brotherhood/Nation Of Islam combination of hate & deceit. Know your enemy. | ||
| Hootowl |
https://www.foxnews.com/world/neo-nazi-couple-who- named-baby-after-hitler-sentenced-to-prison-for-be ing-part-of-terrorist-group Come on, Fox. Far right? Interesting that Britain codifies free association as a crime. Does the US? I really don’t know. Seems like if we did, we could just go arrest all the gang members for the crime of being a gang member. Ditto the antifa crowd, and thousands of elected officials for being communists, an ideology over which we fought a 50 year war. So I doubt it’s constitutional to ban membership in a group. Oh yeah, and NAMBLA. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
Hootowl, the government did just that to the the entire Mongols MC. | ||
| Hootowl |
Not the same. Those folks were arrested for specific crimes. Being a member of the gang is not a crime. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Therein lies the distinction between a citizen and a subject. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
Hootowl, The government DID JUST THAT! Using the RICO statute, they have declared EVERY member of the Mongols MC a criminal. | ||
| Hootowl |
The folks in Britain were charged with being a member of an organization. What were the mongols charged with? I'll bet it wasn't being a member of an organization. RICO prosecutions typically result in 'conspiracy to commit' charges. Conspiring to commit murder is not the same as simply being a member of an organization. Although the courts have found that it is a criminal organization, being a member is not a criminal offense. There are other crimes involved. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
https://councilofclubs.org/mpp/every-mongols-mc-me mber-found-guilty-in-patch-seizure-rico-case/ ....regardless of personal guilt. | ||
| Hootowl |
Indicted. Not convicted. And not tried. Also, from what I understand, as the patch was declared illegal (huge 1st amendment issue) and they were all displaying it, in violation of the law, they all committed a crime. The crime was displaying the patch, not being a member of a group. | ||
| H0gwash |
I had to chuckle at the whole copyright infrigement angle. I suppose the government has nothing to lose by it. The closest domestic thing I could think of was the RICO thing, but it did seem different in some way that I couldn't quite place. | ||
| Ducbsa |
Their ilk invites every Muslim terrorist into France, then uses the threat to keep Frenchmen off the beach. Aux armes, citoyens! https://pjmedia.com/trending/john-kerrys-family-fi ghts-to-keep-peasants-away-from-ancestral-french-v illa-claiming-terror-threat/ | ||
| Hootowl |
Unsurprising. His Party likes windmills too, just not where they can see them from their beach houses. Laws are for other people. | ||
| Aesquire |
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2018/12/s cripture_scholar_alexandria_ocasiocortez_sjw_.html | ||
| Ducbsa |
My wife tells me when she was growing up, Catholics didn't learn Bible stories as much as Protestants, so AOC may have only other leftist liars to depend on. Her version is "fake, but accurate", so just fine with her crew. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Fact or not, it feeds their narrative so they're fine with it. I'm also sick of those Modelo beer ads, focusing on latino...firefighters, military, whatever. "so-and-so came here with his family, they had nothing, they did great things, so it doesn't matter where you're from". And, it doesn't...if you DO IT LEGALLY. But they omit that part. Convenient. | ||
| Ourdee |
...Catholics didn't learn Bible stories as much as Protestants,... A man/woman should read their bible for their self. |
